View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 10482 Location: Tiburon, CA
Back to top |
|
Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 10482 Location: Tiburon, CA
Back to top |
|
johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1901
Back to top |
|
J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6831
Back to top |
Posted: 09/19/22 1:18 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Vegas doesn't have to do very much
and they can't
in 23 they have 9 player under contract
5 guaranteed
Gray, Wilson, Plum, Hamby and Young
4 others
R. Williams 149k
Shepard
Bell
and
Rupert
all on 60somethingk contracts
they have no first or second round picks in 23
and 138k of cap space
just enough for 1 vet minimum and one minimum/minimum contract
ideally they get Stokes to sign for vet minimum
and bring in one minimum contract and they are still the team to beat
they can also replace Bell, Sheppard or Rupert with equally cheap player but probably don't have to the listed player already know the system and have glimpses of potential coming off their first years
the only problem is
If Stokes gets better offers somewhere else Vegas may have to decide
between Stokes and Williams (who has an un-guaranteed contract
both played important minutes in the finals it is clearly an instant offense off the bench vs additional post defense argument
Do you cut Willaims to pay Stokes if Stokes gets offers higher than vet minimum elsewhere? hard choice
hopefully they can avoid it but
Stokes made 115k this season would she accept 75k next season?
Is there a vet minimum post out there who can do the job if Stokes leaves?
Could you cut Williams and find a instant offense replacement at vet minimum?
Or Could you cut Williams at 149k bring her back at 120k and give Stokes 115K? that also seems like it could create awkward feeling but it is another way to go technically.
|
|
shontay33
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 Posts: 472
Back to top |
Posted: 09/20/22 9:02 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
J-Spoon wrote: |
Vegas doesn't have to do very much
and they can't
in 23 they have 9 player under contract
5 guaranteed
Gray, Wilson, Plum, Hamby and Young
4 others
R. Williams 149k
Shepard
Bell
and
Rupert
They will try and figure out a way to keep both. However, due to both of them playing so well, they will definately get offers from other teams which may put Vegas out of the running for resigning either of them.
They still may upgrade their bench too by looking to see which veteran players get cut due to the salary cap or teams wanting to go younger.
I like Rupert. Even though she is only 19 or 20, she can develop into a good stretch 4 in the future.
all on 60somethingk contracts
they have no first or second round picks in 23
and 138k of cap space
just enough for 1 vet minimum and one minimum/minimum contract
ideally they get Stokes to sign for vet minimum
and bring in one minimum contract and they are still the team to beat
they can also replace Bell, Sheppard or Rupert with equally cheap player but probably don't have to the listed player already know the system and have glimpses of potential coming off their first years
the only problem is
If Stokes gets better offers somewhere else Vegas may have to decide
between Stokes and Williams (who has an un-guaranteed contract
both played important minutes in the finals it is clearly an instant offense off the bench vs additional post defense argument
Do you cut Willaims to pay Stokes if Stokes gets offers higher than vet minimum elsewhere? hard choice
hopefully they can avoid it but
Stokes made 115k this season would she accept 75k next season?
Is there a vet minimum post out there who can do the job if Stokes leaves?
Could you cut Williams and find a instant offense replacement at vet minimum?
Or Could you cut Williams at 149k bring her back at 120k and give Stokes 115K? that also seems like it could create awkward feeling but it is another way to go technically. |
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67165 Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
|
readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7443 Location: Durham, NC
Back to top |
Posted: 09/20/22 9:24 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
J-Spoon wrote: |
Vegas doesn't have to do very much
and they can't
in 23 they have 9 player under contract
5 guaranteed
Gray, Wilson, Plum, Hamby and Young
4 others
R. Williams 149k
Shepard
Bell
and
Rupert
all on 60somethingk contracts
they have no first or second round picks in 23
and 138k of cap space
just enough for 1 vet minimum and one minimum/minimum contract
ideally they get Stokes to sign for vet minimum
and bring in one minimum contract and they are still the team to beat
they can also replace Bell, Sheppard or Rupert with equally cheap player but probably don't have to the listed player already know the system and have glimpses of potential coming off their first years
the only problem is
If Stokes gets better offers somewhere else Vegas may have to decide
between Stokes and Williams (who has an un-guaranteed contract
both played important minutes in the finals it is clearly an instant offense off the bench vs additional post defense argument
Do you cut Willaims to pay Stokes if Stokes gets offers higher than vet minimum elsewhere? hard choice
hopefully they can avoid it but
Stokes made 115k this season would she accept 75k next season?
Is there a vet minimum post out there who can do the job if Stokes leaves?
Could you cut Williams and find a instant offense replacement at vet minimum?
Or Could you cut Williams at 149k bring her back at 120k and give Stokes 115K? that also seems like it could create awkward feeling but it is another way to go technically. |
Elizabeth Williams is not quite vet minimum...but close to it. Great defender plus more offense than Stokes (which isn't hard to do).
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
|
|
willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1107 Location: NorCal
Back to top |
Posted: 09/21/22 8:58 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Stokes wasn't in the lineup for her offense. What they needed her for was to match up against and defend taller players like J. Jones. EW is 6'3" and frankly watching her in the WNBA her defense is vastly over rated. Stokes fits the Aces needs. A long defender to match up against taller centers which also free's up Wilson to roam on offense. EW's game would interfer with Wilsons in the paint. A healthy Hamby fits better into the Aces offensively. I liked Hammonds move of putting Stokes into the starting lineup.
I susspect you are seeing this through blue colored lenses.
_________________ No one one is ever as good as their best game, nor as bad as their worst.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67165 Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
Posted: 09/21/22 9:57 am ::: |
Reply |
|
willtalk wrote: |
EW is 6'3" and frankly watching her in the WNBA her defense is vastly over rated. |
X____________________
I saw six seasons of Williams up close and personal. She's fine as a help defender against driving guards but gets destroyed regularly by big post players.
_________________ The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
|
|
readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7443 Location: Durham, NC
Back to top |
Posted: 09/21/22 11:52 am ::: |
Reply |
|
willtalk wrote: |
Stokes wasn't in the lineup for her offense. What they needed her for was to match up against and defend taller players like J. Jones. EW is 6'3" and frankly watching her in the WNBA her defense is vastly over rated. Stokes fits the Aces needs. A long defender to match up against taller centers which also free's up Wilson to roam on offense. EW's game would interfer with Wilsons in the paint. A healthy Hamby fits better into the Aces offensively. I liked Hammonds move of putting Stokes into the starting lineup.
I susspect you are seeing this through blue colored lenses. |
Not. At. All. I just got to see Elizabeth playing with the Mystics. She lost the starting center job to Shakira Austin fair and square. I do not count the years Elizabeth played for the dysfunctional Atlanta Dream - only this past season playing for a real WNBA coach. I agree that Elizabeth can not do some of what Kiah did on defense due to her lesser height. On offense, Elizabeth would certainly stay out of A'ja's way and primarily be a screen setter, the same way Kiah has done, but can score more points off broken plays. By "more" points, I mean 3-4 pts/game more than Kiah as clearly Elizabeth is not a major scorer in the WNBA. She simply has a stronger mid range shot than Kiah does. Her free throws have always been below average.
I only posted Elizabeth as an alternative if the Aces cannot afford Kiah + Riquna. I think having EWill plus Riquna is stronger than Kiah without Riquna. Elizabeth accepted $90K with the Mystics and this season solidified her lesser role in the league so she should accept less than $90K.
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67165 Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
Posted: 09/21/22 1:14 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I don't know what the market value for Stokes is. On one hand she's the starting center for the WNBA champs. On the other she's a soon to be 30 year old who's a complete cipher on offense. Most teams don't have the personnel to use her like the Aces did.
I agree with RAF about Atlanta's dysfunction. That's why they stuck with Williams as a starter for six seasons. T-Bone immediately recognized she wasn't starter material and made moves to upgrade in the post.
_________________ The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
|
|
readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7443 Location: Durham, NC
Back to top |
Posted: 09/21/22 3:26 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
pilight wrote: |
I don't know what the market value for Stokes is. On one hand she's the starting center for the WNBA champs. On the other she's a soon to be 30 year old who's a complete cipher on offense. Most teams don't have the personnel to use her like the Aces did.
I agree with RAF about Atlanta's dysfunction. That's why they stuck with Williams as a starter for six seasons. T-Bone immediately recognized she wasn't starter material and made moves to upgrade in the post. |
I agree with all of the above. EWill was an upgrade over what the Mystics had in the post, which was nobody. Shakira was picked to compete with Elizabeth but the Mystics lucked out and she far exceeded expectations. I wish to add, though, that playing alongside two time MVP A'ja leads to needing something different out of a center. We can all see what happened when Breanna lost the center that complemented her in Mercedes Russell and got "no defense" Charles in her place. Elizabeth has always been a "defense first" player and has always scored more than Kiah in the WNBA.
PS: Glad we agree about Atlanta's dysfunction. The only team I would even consider Elizabeth a starter on is Las Vegas. That extends back through her entire WNBA career.
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
|
|
readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7443 Location: Durham, NC
Back to top |
Posted: 09/21/22 3:35 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Unlike some I will not name, I base my WNBA player opinions based on what they do in the pro game only. I might have personal feelings based on a player playing for Duke in college, but if they don't measure up on the pro floor, I do not promote them beyond their demonstrated pro capabilities.
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
Back to top |
Posted: 09/21/22 4:33 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
I only posted Elizabeth as an alternative if the Aces cannot afford Kiah + Riquna. I think having EWill plus Riquna is stronger than Kiah without Riquna. Elizabeth accepted $90K with the Mystics and this season solidified her lesser role in the league so she should accept less than $90K. |
I think this is correct. I guess the other alternative is to find a cheaper than Riquna shooting guard with a 3-pt shot which would allow you to keep Kiah, if you're sold on her. I suspect someone will offer Kiah way too much money and she will move on anyway.
Last edited by myrtle on 09/21/22 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1107 Location: NorCal
Back to top |
Posted: 09/21/22 4:38 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
No offense was meant. It is certainly natural to take more of an interest in players we have been fortunate to have followed longer. I, myself, have had bias with players I was more familiar with both through their college or professional careers. Bias does not need to be limited to a players abilities, but might also refer to their familiarity. My comment about flue tinted glasses was in that context. Ironically, my blue tinted glasses kept me more aware of what EW was doing as a pro and that was what made me believe that she was not a good fit for what LV needed.
I am often more critical with players that I am more familiar with in order to maintain objectivity to compensate for that familiarity. That is why I felt that Gray not being named an All Star this year was not a snub under the circumstances.
_________________ No one one is ever as good as their best game, nor as bad as their worst.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67165 Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
Posted: 09/21/22 4:41 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
PS: Glad we agree about Atlanta's dysfunction. The only team I would even consider Elizabeth a starter on is Las Vegas. That extends back through her entire WNBA career. |
Angel McCoughtry was able to paper over a lot of that, similar to what Catchings did as a player in Indiana
_________________ The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
|
|
lynxmania
Joined: 18 Feb 2011 Posts: 10697 Location: Minnesota
Back to top |
|
J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6831
Back to top |
Posted: 01/25/23 9:44 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
can Vegas pull this off financially?
Gray/Sheppard
Plum/R. Williams
Young/Bell
Wilson/Rupert
Stokes/Zahui B
and a minimum (or vet minimum)?
I believe the last 3 spots they have about 305K
if they do 75 for a vet minimum (maybe Colson or Plaisance or someone new)
they have about 230K left for Stokes and Zahui B that is 115 a piece (or some variable like 125 for one and 105 for the other)
|
|
readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7443 Location: Durham, NC
Back to top |
Posted: 01/25/23 11:39 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
J-Spoon wrote: |
can Vegas pull this off financially?
Gray/Sheppard
Plum/R. Williams
Young/Bell
Wilson/Rupert
Stokes/Zahui B
and a minimum (or vet minimum)?
I believe the last 3 spots they have about 305K
if they do 75 for a vet minimum (maybe Colson or Plaisance or someone new)
they have about 230K left for Stokes and Zahui B that is 115 a piece (or some variable like 125 for one and 105 for the other) |
Like Syd Colson they carried last season?
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
|
|
scullyfu
Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 8869 Location: Niagara Falls
Back to top |
Posted: 01/26/23 8:46 am ::: |
Reply |
|
J-Spoon wrote: |
can Vegas pull this off financially?
Gray/Sheppard
Plum/R. Williams
Young/Bell
Wilson/Rupert
Stokes/Zahui B
and a minimum (or vet minimum)?
I believe the last 3 spots they have about 305K
if they do 75 for a vet minimum (maybe Colson or Plaisance or someone new)
they have about 230K left for Stokes and Zahui B that is 115 a piece (or some variable like 125 for one and 105 for the other) |
Are your figures taking into account the fact that the players voted to take less monies this season, allegedly to keep the championship team together?
_________________ i'll always bleed Storm green.
|
|
J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6831
Back to top |
Posted: 01/26/23 6:48 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I used the numbers on the herhoops cap sheet
|
|
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63980
Back to top |
Posted: 01/26/23 9:05 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I noticed one of the press releases described the Aces as having the negotiating rights to Zahui. Any chance they negotiate her to the Lynx for say the 12th pick? Too much for her? I haven’t checked how she’s doing overseas so maybe I’ll retract this idea later.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
|
|
Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 10482 Location: Tiburon, CA
Back to top |
|
DFWub2018
Joined: 24 Aug 2018 Posts: 1047 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth
Back to top |
|
Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16467 Location: Holland
Back to top |
Posted: 01/28/23 5:39 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Candace signed with the Aces
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
|
|
|
|