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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1899
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Posted: 08/05/22 7:08 pm ::: |
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readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
tfan wrote: |
readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
Yes, it's all sickening. I take no pleasure in being correct that Putin scripted the entire thing to finally get his thug (Bout) back. |
Victor Bout was taken by the USA in 2008 and convicted in 2011 for a crime the USA wants to be the only one to commit - arming rebels. Brittney Griner began playing in Russia in 2014 and has played there every year since. Griner and Bout are easily linked if we remember how Putin is a world renowned procrastinator. |
He's been trying to get Bout back ever since his conviction! The US would not previously consider giving up such a murderous thug in a deal. Putin had to go for someone who would get a lot more media attention so the US would put Bout on the table. It is sickening. Just sickening. |
BG means a lot to us here but there was no guarantee her arrest would garner the attention it has in the US. In fact, the early days of her detention were met with complaints that people weren't talking about it enough or doing enough.
I honestly don't believe she was targeted by Putin directly. I think she is a victim of opportunity and circumstance. She fell into his lap and he had used her as a hostage.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7421 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: 08/05/22 8:50 pm ::: |
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johnjohnW wrote: |
readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
tfan wrote: |
readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
Yes, it's all sickening. I take no pleasure in being correct that Putin scripted the entire thing to finally get his thug (Bout) back. |
Victor Bout was taken by the USA in 2008 and convicted in 2011 for a crime the USA wants to be the only one to commit - arming rebels. Brittney Griner began playing in Russia in 2014 and has played there every year since. Griner and Bout are easily linked if we remember how Putin is a world renowned procrastinator. |
He's been trying to get Bout back ever since his conviction! The US would not previously consider giving up such a murderous thug in a deal. Putin had to go for someone who would get a lot more media attention so the US would put Bout on the table. It is sickening. Just sickening. |
BG means a lot to us here but there was no guarantee her arrest would garner the attention it has in the US. In fact, the early days of her detention were met with complaints that people weren't talking about it enough or doing enough.
I honestly don't believe she was targeted by Putin directly. I think she is a victim of opportunity and circumstance. She fell into his lap and he had used her as a hostage. |
Perfectly reasonable explanation as well. You might recall that initially, the US advised against publicizing BG being "detained" until they gathered more facts. Once they determined that there was zero evidence for the arrest, the US changed her status to "unlawful." US position throughout was figuring out the most likely way of getting her home.
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9785
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Posted: 08/05/22 9:02 pm ::: |
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readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
Perfectly reasonable explanation as well. You might recall that initially, the US advised against publicizing BG being "detained" until they gathered more facts. Once they determined that there was zero evidence for the arrest, the US changed her status to "unlawful." US position throughout was figuring out the most likely way of getting her home. |
How did the USA determine there was "zero evidence for arrest"?
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scullyfu
Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 8869 Location: Niagara Falls
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Posted: 08/06/22 1:11 pm ::: |
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No labs were run to determine amounts, THC levels. One thing I’ve heard anyway.
_________________ i'll always bleed Storm green.
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010 Posts: 5428 Location: Chocolate Paradise
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Posted: 08/07/22 10:10 am ::: |
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For those of you who are interested. Check out the the recent history of Audrey Lorber in the Russian justice system.
_________________ You can win, as long as you keep your head to the SKY! Be OPTIMISTIC!
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 08/07/22 12:40 pm ::: |
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Rock Hard wrote: |
For those of you who are interested. Check out the the recent history of Audrey Lorber in the Russian justice system. |
Thanks for mentioning Ms. Lorber. I'd seen her name before on this thread but hadn't taken the time to read about her. Now I have.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 6887 Location: Home
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Posted: 08/09/22 9:51 am ::: |
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Firstly, has anyone here got to see and read the actual evidence? He said she said doesn't count.
Secondly, the US made the offer to trade prisoners, not the Russians.
Thirdly, Russian law and procedures are similar to USA law. Actually, US law provides stiffer penalties for possession and smuggling than Russia law (up to 20 years.)
Fourthly, Griner is a wealthy mega-millionaire and has employed the best defense lawyers in Russia and USA. She played for the wealthiest Russian oligarch basketball owners and has traveled back and forth to Russia numerous times since her USA basketball years.
Fifthly, it is not relevant, in this case, that possession and use of drugs in the USA is less restrictive and more tolerated than in Russia.
Sixthly, the information provided by any defense team to the public, in any case, is not usually conclusive or inclusive. One does not hire defense lawyers to exact evidence that may/will convict them. Defense information leaked or provided to the media is designed to show only that which favors the defendant. Vice versa applies, also. Therefore, we need to see and read the actual evidence.
Seventhly, there is a difference between possession and smuggling. When one enters another country one must fill out a declaration sheet. On this sheet one must list all questionable items. Did Griner list the illicit drugs?
Eighthly, simply leaving a bottle or container in one's luggage with its natural label on it that identifies the contents would most likely be construed as simple possession. The penalty for possession is minor compared to smuggling.
Ninthly, if the container of drugs was modified to conceal the drugs, to pass them off as something else or the drugs were sewn into the lining of the luggage, clothing or something of this nature for concealment, this would most likely be construed as smuggling. Smuggling usually connotes intent whereas, possession does not always do so.
Tenthly, Griner was sentenced to nine years based on smuggling not mere possession. She also lied about her guilt.
Eleventhly, before the case was decided, Griners defense team "fog horned" their interpretation of the case to the US public and US Government to create turmoil and to make the case political. Understandably, this is usually the norm and was expected. However, did it help or hinder Griner?
Twelthly, knowingly, the defense team provided inferences against the Russian Government and their people referring to them as racists and bigots because Griner is a black, female and lesbian. The vast USA media and our current Government Administration politically went along with it and emphasized it. Did this help or hinder Griner?
Lastly, I have had no access to see and read the actual evidence, therefore, I have no opinion. I am hopeful that Griner will get back home as soon as possible, barring a prisoner trade agreement.
Always try to reason with an open mind and beware of the Pied Piper Conmen who have taught and spread propaganda to intentionally separate us for their own betterments.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15759 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 6887 Location: Home
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21980
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Posted: 08/09/22 8:47 pm ::: |
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Some seriously disappointing / embarrassing conduct here in this thread.
Anyone who finds themselves banned or their posts deleted tonight Australian time shouldn't be surprised.
_________________ Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 08/09/22 10:12 pm ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
Some seriously disappointing / embarrassing conduct here in this thread.
Anyone who finds themselves banned or their posts deleted tonight Australian time shouldn't be surprised. |
This thread has been a disaster. I have contributed to that disaster. I'm sorry about that.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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ChiSky54
Joined: 19 Jun 2019 Posts: 695 Location: Chicago
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scullyfu
Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 8869 Location: Niagara Falls
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ChiSky54
Joined: 19 Jun 2019 Posts: 695 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 08/10/22 12:13 pm ::: |
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Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...
Guess I focused more on the nicer stuff (deliberately tried to filter the other), but yes, I have seen a lot of bullying, mean-spiritedness, one-upmanship and more.
_________________ There is nothing new under the sun.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21980
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Posted: 08/11/22 9:52 am ::: |
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Quote: |
Russia confirms prisoner swap talks as U.S. hopes for Griner, Whelan release
RIGA, Latvia — Russia on Thursday confirmed for the first time that negotiations between Washington and Moscow on a prisoner exchange were underway, after the United States proposed a deal to release WNBA star Brittney Griner and another American prisoner, Paul Whelan. |
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/11/russia-prisoner-exchange-griner-whelan/
_________________ Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1899
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Posted: 08/11/22 11:03 am ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
Quote: |
Russia confirms prisoner swap talks as U.S. hopes for Griner, Whelan release
RIGA, Latvia — Russia on Thursday confirmed for the first time that negotiations between Washington and Moscow on a prisoner exchange were underway, after the United States proposed a deal to release WNBA star Brittney Griner and another American prisoner, Paul Whelan. |
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/08/11/russia-prisoner-exchange-griner-whelan/ |
Russia: stop talking about this in the media.
Also Russia: oh yeah, we're talking with the US about a swap.
I just hope for both BG and Whelan that a deal is made soon.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 08/13/22 4:16 pm ::: |
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I'm in a diner in south Brooklyn. Traditionally white, Republican area. As an elderly white customer was leaving, the white waitress began yelling to him about Brittney Griner: "SHE NEVER STOOD FOR THE FLAG!!!"
This is the NYC borough where my WNBA team plays.
Have to wonder how many people in the U.S. are happy that Griner is sitting in one of Putin's prisons. Awful.
P.S. As I was leaving, I approached the waitress as calmly.and respectfully as I could. I said it was her place of work and she had every right to express her views. That i was a WNBA fan and respected and supported Griner. We had a better conversation than i expected given her earlier angry blast.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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threadkiller1201
Joined: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 439
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Posted: 08/13/22 4:48 pm ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
I'm in a diner in south Brooklyn. Traditionally white, Republican area. As an elderly white customer was leaving, the white waitress began yelling to him about Brittney Griner: "SHE NEVER STOOD FOR THE FLAG!!!"
This is the NYC borough where my WNBA team plays.
Have to wonder how many people in the U.S. are happy that Griner is sitting in one of Putin's prisons. Awful.
P.S. As I was leaving, I approached the waitress as calmly.and respectfully as I could. I said it was her place of work and she had every right to express her views. That i was a WNBA fan and respected and supported Griner. We had a better conversation than i expected given her earlier angry blast. |
I read this article recently:
https://www.insider.com/brittney-griner-russia-prison-release-pushback-deservingness-heuristic-2022-8
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elsie
Joined: 08 Apr 2016 Posts: 278
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Posted: 08/13/22 4:53 pm ::: |
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if you want a taste of what general America thinks about BG then go to facebook....
not pretty....
people will learn eventually that it IS important the image you put out there.....you know, the old "how to win friends and influence people" .....
does anybody remember anything about the three black guys that raised their fist while on the podium in the Olympics decades ago?....no....nobody even remembers their names....
but everyone knows and remembers George Foreman....
now over the decades who has done more to enrich the American people and black people specifically ...George Foreman or those three nameless guys?....
I don't think people actually have to be ugly Americans to make their point....
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 08/13/22 6:00 pm ::: |
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The names of Tommie Smith and John Carlos have been repeated endlessly by activists and others ever since 1968. I was lucky enough to hear Mr. Carlos speak a few years ago at the New York Public Library. How ironic to have them discussed as "nameless guys" on a WNBA board, given the courageous anti-racist activism of so many WNBA players before 2020, during 2020, and ever since. And even more ironic on a thread about Brittney Griner, who surely knows the names of and honors Tommie Smith and John Carlos. Indeed, it's quite possible that Griner knows them personally.
The African American Museum of History and Culture in Washington, D.C., has a powerful statue memorial for Smith, Carlos, and Peter Norman--the white Australian sprinter who was on the Olympic medal podium with Smith and Carlos in 1968 and supported their protest. The link below shows a photo:
https://wskg.org/this-new-yorkers-raised-fist-still-resonates-50-years-later/gettyimages-913604176/
I won't take time to note the many awards that have been given to Tommie Smith, John Carlos, or both. But here's just one. In 2008, these two "nameless guys" were given the Arthur Ashe Award for Courage at ESPN's annual ESPY awards. But no one inside or outside the sports world attends or watches the ESPYs, right?
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3382
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Posted: 08/13/22 6:18 pm ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
The names of Tommie Smith and John Carlos have been repeatedly endlessly by activists and others ever since 1968. I was lucky enough to hear Mr. Carlos speak a few years ago at the New York Public Library. How ironic to have them discussed as "nameless guys" on a WNBA board, given the courageous anti-racist activism of so many WNBA players before 2020, during 2020, and ever since. And even more ironic on a thread about Brittney Griner, who surely knows the names of and honors Tommie Smith and John Carlos. Indeed, it's quite possible that Griner knows them personally.
The African American Museum of History and Culture in Washington, D.C., has a powerful statue memorial for Smith, Carlos, and Peter Norman--the white Australian sprinter who was on the Olympic medal podium with Smith and Carlos in 1968 and supported their protest. The link below shows a photo:
https://wskg.org/this-new-yorkers-raised-fist-still-resonates-50-years-later/gettyimages-913604176/
I won't take time to note the many awards that have been given to Tommie Smith, John Carlos, or both. But here's just one. In 2008, these two "nameless guys" were given the Arthur Ashe Award for Courage at ESPN's annual ESPY awards. But no one inside or outside the sports world attends or watches the ESPYs, right? |
You got more patience than me, Bob Lamm: I knew that poster was on that wack sauce when they said to go to Facebook to find out what America thinks. I didn't even want to dignify the three 'nameless' Black guys part with a response.
Also, shout out to Peter Norman: I've heard of whitewashing, but that's a new one on me.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15759 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 08/13/22 7:27 pm ::: |
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elsie wrote: |
people will learn eventually that it IS important the image you put out there.....you know, the old "how to win friends and influence people" ..... |
And this is precisely the *point* Brit has righteously upheld: Image is NOT to be determined by popular consensus. If you wanna remain 'old school' and think Brit 'n Diana 'n ALL of 'em oughtta wear skirts 'n heels before their games to keep fans happy, then go back to 1950. God bless HER for being her real uber-talented self, HOWEVER she presents.
If ANY people don't like her "image", that's their problem to figure out. This IS 2022, and if they wanna hold her political activism against her, then they're demonstrating their level of mental midgetry.
Fortunately, I have every confidence that Biden's people don't go by facebook recommendations. She's an American, wrongfully detained, and deserves every consideration any red-blooded, tax-paying citizen deserves.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 08/13/22 10:02 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
You got more patience than me, Bob Lamm: I knew that poster was on that wack sauce when they said to go to Facebook to find out what America thinks. I didn't even want to dignify the three 'nameless' Black guys part with a response. |
I was 21 when the Mexico City Olympics took place in summer 1968. Tommie Smith, John Carlos, and the other Black athletes and activists involved in those dramatic protests have been heroes of mine ever since. I was incredibly excited to hear John Carlos speak at the New York Public Library. I felt honored to be there, to hear him, and have a chance to applaud him.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21980
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Posted: 08/14/22 1:56 am ::: |
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Who doesn't appreciate a good, accurate history lesson with their basketball chat.
_________________ Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15759 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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