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And1
Joined: 19 Feb 2014 Posts: 152
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Posted: 09/21/21 10:02 am ::: |
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As much as I loved having Charles on the team this year, I don't see her coming back to the Mystics if Meesseman comes over. Personally, I like the combination of a healthy EDD/Meesseman over EDD/Charles. It would have been amazing to see all 3 play together this year, though.
Even if Meesseman doesn't come over, Charles may not come back. I found her post game interview interesting where she was admiring the Minnesota franchise and culture and hinting subtlely that Washington was not at the same level, which maybe is true, but it was pretty clear that she was not happy with her current situation right now.
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Iluvacc
Joined: 11 Jun 2005 Posts: 4167
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12615 Location: Dallas , Texas
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HomerCecil
Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 1220
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67129 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/21/21 1:30 pm ::: |
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HomerCecil wrote: |
Not saying that you are wrong, but in her defense, the version of the Mystics she ended up with was not anything like the one she or anyone else thought she was joining when she signed. |
I've seen first hand a great player drag a band of cast-offs and misfits all the way to the finals. Tina Charles is not that caliber of player.
_________________ I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12615 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Posted: 09/21/21 1:46 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
HomerCecil wrote: |
Not saying that you are wrong, but in her defense, the version of the Mystics she ended up with was not anything like the one she or anyone else thought she was joining when she signed. |
I've seen first hand a great player drag a band of cast-offs and misfits all the way to the finals. Tina Charles is not that caliber of player. |
*Cough Cough* Catchings.....
_________________ 3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
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HomerCecil
Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 1220
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Posted: 09/21/21 1:58 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
HomerCecil wrote: |
Not saying that you are wrong, but in her defense, the version of the Mystics she ended up with was not anything like the one she or anyone else thought she was joining when she signed. |
I've seen first hand a great player drag a band of cast-offs and misfits all the way to the finals. Tina Charles is not that caliber of player. |
Certainly not going to argue with you there (it's also pretty difficult for a post player to do that, period). But I also don't think Tina Charles was the reason the Mystics went 12-20 this year. I don't think Thibault would have planned on the likes of Plaisance, McCall, Weise, Zellous and SWK being major contributors. I doubt he would have even planned for several of them to be on the roster.
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Iluvacc
Joined: 11 Jun 2005 Posts: 4167
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Posted: 09/21/21 2:09 pm ::: |
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WNBA 09 wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
HomerCecil wrote: |
Not saying that you are wrong, but in her defense, the version of the Mystics she ended up with was not anything like the one she or anyone else thought she was joining when she signed. |
I've seen first hand a great player drag a band of cast-offs and misfits all the way to the finals. Tina Charles is not that caliber of player. |
*Cough Cough* Catchings..... |
X____
And Angel!
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12615 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Iluvacc
Joined: 11 Jun 2005 Posts: 4167
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014 Posts: 867
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Posted: 09/21/21 4:43 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
HomerCecil wrote: |
Not saying that you are wrong, but in her defense, the version of the Mystics she ended up with was not anything like the one she or anyone else thought she was joining when she signed. |
I've seen first hand a great player drag a band of cast-offs and misfits all the way to the finals. Tina Charles is not that caliber of player. |
That great player didn't have an fellow Olympian on team like Charles did this season and Natasha Cloud would tell you she isn't nobody's cast-off or misfit.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12615 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16467 Location: Holland
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Posted: 09/22/21 4:01 am ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
Stormeo wrote: |
Richyyy wrote: |
There's also, scarily, the chance that Delle Donne retires, which could change their cap situation. |
Scarily? It’s been ‘scary’ for Styx fans having to put up with EDD’s ‘will she or won’t she play?’ status for virtually the past two seasons (but having her contract be as present/prevalent as it ever was). At least if she retires, they’d be able to reinvent this roster just a little bit. They may not become a #1 team out of it, but I don’t think they’d be as bad as they have been the past two seasons, at least. |
It's still scary because superstars make contenders. Their quickest path to genuine contention is for Delle Donne to be back and playing. We saw this season what a team with Charles dominating the ball and Atkins having the best season of her career got them - a lottery pick. Much as I love Alysha Clark, is her coming back and praying for some better general health pushing this team into contention without EDD? Doubt it. |
A healthy Alysha Clark and the return of Meesseman will do that for sure if Charles stays. People mentioning Charles not returning if Meesseman returns. Why would that be? She is clearly asking for help and didnt expect to be carrying such a big scoring load this season.
This starting line-up can compete with anyone! With or without EDD! Great defensive and offensive balance. Everyone will be able to get their shots.
Cloud
Atkins
Clark
Meesseman
Charles
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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DFWub2018
Joined: 24 Aug 2018 Posts: 1047 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth
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Posted: 09/22/21 7:45 am ::: |
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J-Spoon wrote: |
With that said Washington can't afford to bring back Charles, Meesseman and MHA. (probably can only afford one even with some fancy moves unless EDD retires or Washington trades Cloud or Mitchell.
As pointed out Washington can not core Charles she has reached her core limit and probably can't core Meesseman either because she was never under contract so they might as well core MHA I am sure whether they keep her or trade her I am sure there will be suited for Hines-Allen even at the max.
Now if EDD retires that frees up money for another max deal either Charles or Meesseman but I don't see why EDD would do that unless she really is done with basketball, her money is guaranteed and even at 75% she is still one of the best in the world. But if EDD does retire you can probably keep Meeseman and Charles or MHA and one of Meesseman and Charles if you can keep everyone away from super max,
I could see Washington trying to do a sign and trade with Meesseman or Charles but I am not sure that would be allowed for Meesseman if she is completely out for the previous year not sure how that works.
I could also see Mike T trading the #3 pick (assuming things go with the lottery order. Depending on who is back a more win now player would make sense. Washington also drafts strangely if Washington ends up 3 or 4 could definitely see a pick like Burrell, Joens or Cunane over the more traditionally thought of lottery picks of Howard, Austin, Smith or Hillmon.
So overall I have no idea how it plays how. If they wanted to come back who would Mike T be more loyal to Meesseman or Charles? Would either be willing to play for less money?
OK so core MHA trade her to Dallas for Alarie and the #7 pick Dallas needs better posts now to become competitive Alarie and the draft pick is cheap enough that if you can get get Meesseman or Charles to take regular max you can afford one of them if you finish up with Gustafson on the cheapest possible contract (you can also waive Weise and get someone cheaper if you need a little more wiggle room) and go with 11
Cloud/Mitchell
Atkins/Weise
Clark/pick #3 Joens or Burrell
EDD/Alarie/Gustafson
Charles or Meesseman/pick #7 Carter or Cunane |
J since you mentioned us can you play Greg Bibb for a second and breakdown all the moves/drafts/trades you would make for us next season 😁
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6827
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Posted: 09/22/21 8:45 am ::: |
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DFWub2018 wrote: |
J-Spoon wrote: |
With that said Washington can't afford to bring back Charles, Meesseman and MHA. (probably can only afford one even with some fancy moves unless EDD retires or Washington trades Cloud or Mitchell.
As pointed out Washington can not core Charles she has reached her core limit and probably can't core Meesseman either because she was never under contract so they might as well core MHA I am sure whether they keep her or trade her I am sure there will be suited for Hines-Allen even at the max.
Now if EDD retires that frees up money for another max deal either Charles or Meesseman but I don't see why EDD would do that unless she really is done with basketball, her money is guaranteed and even at 75% she is still one of the best in the world. But if EDD does retire you can probably keep Meeseman and Charles or MHA and one of Meesseman and Charles if you can keep everyone away from super max,
I could see Washington trying to do a sign and trade with Meesseman or Charles but I am not sure that would be allowed for Meesseman if she is completely out for the previous year not sure how that works.
I could also see Mike T trading the #3 pick (assuming things go with the lottery order. Depending on who is back a more win now player would make sense. Washington also drafts strangely if Washington ends up 3 or 4 could definitely see a pick like Burrell, Joens or Cunane over the more traditionally thought of lottery picks of Howard, Austin, Smith or Hillmon.
So overall I have no idea how it plays how. If they wanted to come back who would Mike T be more loyal to Meesseman or Charles? Would either be willing to play for less money?
OK so core MHA trade her to Dallas for Alarie and the #7 pick Dallas needs better posts now to become competitive Alarie and the draft pick is cheap enough that if you can get get Meesseman or Charles to take regular max you can afford one of them if you finish up with Gustafson on the cheapest possible contract (you can also waive Weise and get someone cheaper if you need a little more wiggle room) and go with 11
Cloud/Mitchell
Atkins/Weise
Clark/pick #3 Joens or Burrell
EDD/Alarie/Gustafson
Charles or Meesseman/pick #7 Carter or Cunane |
J since you mentioned us can you play Greg Bibb for a second and breakdown all the moves/drafts/trades you would make for us next season 😁 |
I was going to wait for the Dallas 22 thread
Dallas is in a strong position they have decent cap, A lottery pick and pick #7, some players with trade value and/or assets they could combine for a better single asset and a strong young core with Ogunbowale, Sabally, Gray and Mabery. What moves they make sort of depends on the philosophy they want to move forward with. Because they are young and their two best players are still on rookie deals they could simply draft well and go with internal development or if they want to hasten the process they could look to add the "right" veterans to take the team to the next level. "Right" equals players who want to be in Dallas, will add to the team but won't step on the toes of the young stars. I will think about it and come up with some ideas.
Connecting it back to Washington I do like the idea of trading for Hines-Allen as she fulfill the veteran improvement, would fit well in the post and is still young enough to develop along with Ogunbowale and Sabally.
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DFWub2018
Joined: 24 Aug 2018 Posts: 1047 Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth
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Posted: 09/22/21 9:04 am ::: |
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J-Spoon wrote: |
DFWub2018 wrote: |
J-Spoon wrote: |
With that said Washington can't afford to bring back Charles, Meesseman and MHA. (probably can only afford one even with some fancy moves unless EDD retires or Washington trades Cloud or Mitchell.
As pointed out Washington can not core Charles she has reached her core limit and probably can't core Meesseman either because she was never under contract so they might as well core MHA I am sure whether they keep her or trade her I am sure there will be suited for Hines-Allen even at the max.
Now if EDD retires that frees up money for another max deal either Charles or Meesseman but I don't see why EDD would do that unless she really is done with basketball, her money is guaranteed and even at 75% she is still one of the best in the world. But if EDD does retire you can probably keep Meeseman and Charles or MHA and one of Meesseman and Charles if you can keep everyone away from super max,
I could see Washington trying to do a sign and trade with Meesseman or Charles but I am not sure that would be allowed for Meesseman if she is completely out for the previous year not sure how that works.
I could also see Mike T trading the #3 pick (assuming things go with the lottery order. Depending on who is back a more win now player would make sense. Washington also drafts strangely if Washington ends up 3 or 4 could definitely see a pick like Burrell, Joens or Cunane over the more traditionally thought of lottery picks of Howard, Austin, Smith or Hillmon.
So overall I have no idea how it plays how. If they wanted to come back who would Mike T be more loyal to Meesseman or Charles? Would either be willing to play for less money?
OK so core MHA trade her to Dallas for Alarie and the #7 pick Dallas needs better posts now to become competitive Alarie and the draft pick is cheap enough that if you can get get Meesseman or Charles to take regular max you can afford one of them if you finish up with Gustafson on the cheapest possible contract (you can also waive Weise and get someone cheaper if you need a little more wiggle room) and go with 11
Cloud/Mitchell
Atkins/Weise
Clark/pick #3 Joens or Burrell
EDD/Alarie/Gustafson
Charles or Meesseman/pick #7 Carter or Cunane |
J since you mentioned us can you play Greg Bibb for a second and breakdown all the moves/drafts/trades you would make for us next season 😁 |
I was going to wait for the Dallas 22 thread
Dallas is in a strong position they have decent cap, A lottery pick and pick #7, some players with trade value and/or assets they could combine for a better single asset and a strong young core with Ogunbowale, Sabally, Gray and Mabery. What moves they make sort of depends on the philosophy they want to move forward with. Because they are young and their two best players are still on rookie deals they could simply draft well and go with internal development or if they want to hasten the process they could look to add the "right" veterans to take the team to the next level. "Right" equals players who want to be in Dallas, will add to the team but won't step on the toes of the young stars. I will think about it and come up with some ideas.
Connecting it back to Washington I do like the idea of trading for Hines-Allen as she fulfill the veteran improvement, would fit well in the post and is still young enough to develop along with Ogunbowale and Sabally. |
In the post game press conference uploaded yesterday VJ mentioned twice that she and the organization is NOT interested in "developing" ANYBODY....she/they want to contend now and moving forward, so I'm curious to see what they do when the time comes!
But, I've always liked most of your ideas vs Bibbs but we will see what happens, I guess 😒
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Milks26
Joined: 25 Mar 2021 Posts: 830
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Posted: 09/22/21 12:39 pm ::: |
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Hines-Allen to Dallas.....ugh
She was on fire in the Wubble. Injured for most of 2021. I rather they didn't. Others are out there.
_________________ ~College WBB & the "W' need other tv networks covering the important stuff...Espn is beyond tired~
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HomerCecil
Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 1220
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12615 Location: Dallas , Texas
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67129 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 11/17/21 4:20 pm ::: |
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Thibault extended
https://mystics.wnba.com/news/mike-thibault-signs-contract-extension/
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“After our last two years with the pandemic and injuries, I am looking forward to getting back to a full, healthy team,” said Thibault. “I am excited for the offseason and what we can do to reset our team.” |
_________________ I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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HomerCecil
Joined: 30 Nov 2005 Posts: 1220
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Posted: 11/18/21 1:20 pm ::: |
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Glad Coach T is coming back. "Reset our team" makes me think there are big moves coming? Interesting phrasing for sure.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18066 Location: Queens
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Posted: 11/18/21 1:36 pm ::: |
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Maybe they're finally going to cancel the Waiting for Godot revival?
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 11/18/21 2:14 pm ::: |
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Queenie wrote: |
Maybe they're finally going to cancel the Waiting for Godot revival? |
Two more years left on that guaranteed contract. Vladimir and Estragon will continue to kill time with Pax the Panda.
On the bright side, Washington does have a lottery pick. Maybe they get lucky with the ping-pong balls. Also, as Randy suggested, it probably makes sense for the Mystics to move Alysha Clark if they can.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019 Posts: 4703
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Posted: 11/18/21 2:52 pm ::: |
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HomerCecil wrote: |
Glad Coach T is coming back. "Reset our team" makes me think there are big moves coming? Interesting phrasing for sure. |
Great catch. Yeah, the Mystics are at a bit of a crossroads these days.
If EDD retires, everything is made easy in terms of which direction to go in – a hard reset, a full-on rebuild. Do what you can to get rid of Clark's and Cloud's contracts, since they're the next most expensive ones behind EDD's. Accumulate draft picks and young players like nobody's business.
If EDD doesn't retire, well, then how sustainably healthy is she? Can she ever be relied upon again through the course of a full season? (She barely could be before 2020 afaic.) If Thibault doesn't think so, then yeah, go for either a hard reset, or just a soft reset where everyone currently under contract stays, and the remaining roster spots are filled with young, cheap players. If EDD's health is wonky as expected, the team becomes a lottery team again anyway. But, if EDD's health is better than expected, well now all of a sudden they're likely a dark-horse contender. All it takes is a 6th-place finish and clicking at the right time, if 2021 was any indication.
Any type of reset would mean letting Charles and Meesseman walk, as well as trying to sign-and-trade away Hines-Allen for a decent package – if not having to let her walk, too. I don't know if EDD would approve of this plan, but then, it's kinda hard to say if she still has a say, since she has really left the team in shambles the past two seasons. (No, she wasn't trying to, but things still happened as they did.)
However, if Thibault really thinks EDD is sustainably healthy and virtually back to 100% by the time free agency starts, then I guess you just go for it for the remaining two seasons she's under contract for. Find a way to get the most talented 11 players, and be ready give proof to those free agents that you're trying to court of EDD's renewed health, because they will be asking for it.
Back to the whole point though: With Thibault using the word "reset," it doesn't sound like going all-in is a possibility anymore, unless he's just faking us all out with his word choices. (Maaaaybe not the greatest thing to do to the Mystics' Season Ticket Holders though. )
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ChicagoAnnie
Joined: 04 Sep 2009 Posts: 9199 Location: St. Paul, MN
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Posted: 11/18/21 9:45 pm ::: |
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If EDD is healthy, trade her. Not her fault, but the organization should not roll the dice hoping she stays healthy for a full season.
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