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craigmont
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
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 Posted: 05/21/24 1:59 pm ::: |
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What if they do this every year? Then it's known that if you sign with the Aces, it comes with an extra hundred grand.
How is that fair?
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 05/21/24 2:09 pm ::: |
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"Fair ..."
An interesting concept, but certainly doesn't apply here.
This is what it means to be a big business, not some little league that no one cares about.
Everyone is playing to win, and as the saying goes, if you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.
Another angle: For years, we have talked about players getting the kind of money they deserve. Well, now some of them are -- which is better than none of them.
As long as the max salary is so low that $100,000 is a difference-maker, rich owners are going to take full advantage. If the max salary is $1 million, that $100,000 still makes a difference, but not as big a one.
But you know, if one team offers me a $1 million max, and another offers me a $1 million max plus my significant other gets a job with an unrelated company that pays $150,000, who am I signing with?
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 05/21/24 2:11 pm ::: |
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| craigmont wrote: |
What if they do this every year? Then it's known that if you sign with the Aces, it comes with an extra hundred grand.
How is that fair? |
There is a lot we don't know about this deal (and reminder the LV Aces organization supposedly has no part in any of this). What happens should a fringe player, like Emma Cannon, get cut or injured. Does she still get $100k/yr for 2 years? Does her replacement get in line for same bonuses?
The more any rational observer thinks about this, it is an obvious subversion of league attempts to ensure a level playing field for every team. IMHO no shot it withstands scrutiny.
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craigmont
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
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Location: Bing-town
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| Posted: 05/21/24 2:29 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
"Fair ..."
An interesting concept, but certainly doesn't apply here.
This is what it means to be a big business, not some little league that no one cares about.
Everyone is playing to win, and as the saying goes, if you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.
Another angle: For years, we have talked about players getting the kind of money they deserve. Well, now some of them are -- which is better than none of them.
As long as the max salary is so low that $100,000 is a difference-maker, rich owners are going to take full advantage. If the max salary is $1 million, that $100,000 still makes a difference, but not as big a one.
But you know, if one team offers me a $1 million max, and another offers me a $1 million max plus my significant other gets a job with an unrelated company that pays $150,000, who am I signing with? |
Glad to hear that cheating is ok with you. Prospective owners will be thrilled.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 05/21/24 2:52 pm ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
The aspect of competitive advantage in recruiting that the Aces get from deals like this occurring is not ideal for the league, but all players getting the same amount is something I like a lot about this deal.
But man ... the small margin between landing on the final roster, and being the final cut, just became worth a whole lot more money in Vegas. 2025 training camp is gonna be seriously competitive. |
Like some Hunger Games shit. And I am here for it! If Cathy had her eyes on the prize, she'd arrange to have it filmed for a reality show.
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 05/21/24 3:31 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| As long as the max salary is so low that $100,000 is a difference-maker, rich owners are going to take full advantage. If the max salary is $1 million, that $100,000 still makes a difference, but not as big a one. |
Agreed. And this is the real reason why we haven't seen anything like this in men's sports: a dude on a max contract ain't getting out of bed for $100K.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 05/21/24 3:33 pm ::: |
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| craigmont wrote: |
| Glad to hear that cheating is ok with you. Prospective owners will be thrilled. |
Tell prospective owners to get their weight up. If you can't afford to sit at the table, don't ante.
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craigmont
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
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Location: Bing-town
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| Posted: 05/21/24 4:33 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| craigmont wrote: |
| Glad to hear that cheating is ok with you. Prospective owners will be thrilled. |
Tell prospective owners to get their weight up. If you can't afford to sit at the table, don't ante. |
Great! Why stop there then? Who can get the biggest briefcase full of cash to the referees? Maybe have your playoff opponents star player mysteriously fall ill or suffer an "accident?"
If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin, right? Rules and fairness are for naive children, not savvy guys like you!
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 05/21/24 4:50 pm ::: |
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| hyperetic wrote: |
| Just a sidenote kind of question, did the Vegas people try to go through the league first or just took it upon themselves? Wouldn't it have been easier to deal with the league first? |
What I recall from the announcement video and press reports I read is that the chair of the LVCVA said that they did not contact the league, the Aces team or any of the players about the money deal. They dealt solely with the players' agents. If that's true, no one ran it by the league for preapproval.
Does anyone believe the Aces didn't know this was going on? If I were investigating this, one of the first questions I'd ask is how did the LVCVA know who the agents were if they never spoke to the league, team or players.
It boggles my mind that the unfair advantage aspect of this one-team windfall is not apparent to everyone, even if it is somehow deemed to be technically legal under the CBA. |
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 05/21/24 5:14 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| Just a sidenote kind of question, did the Vegas people try to go through the league first or just took it upon themselves? Wouldn't it have been easier to deal with the league first? |
What I recall from the announcement video and press reports I read is that the chair of the LVCVA said that they did not contact the league, the Aces team or any of the players about the money deal. They dealt solely with the players' agents. If that's true, no one ran it by the league for preapproval. |
The reason they were so specific about this, almost certainly, is that it's key to making it (they hope) legal. Obviously, if the team or Mark Davis funded it, it's illegal. But even if they organised it, or suggested the idea, then it's basically illegal. So the LVCVA have supposedly gone through each of the agents (I'd say all twelve, but in this league I bet it isn't that many) to set up the deal. Because then, they hope, it's the same as if Gatorade call A'ja Wilson's agent to say we want to pay you a million bucks to be in an advert for us.
That's where the league would probably be most likely to find some illegal element, if the investigation really wants to find something. Because what are the chances there's been no relationship between this organisation (or the people that run it) and the man who brought the NFL to Las Vegas? Which doesn't mean they'll find anything provably illegal, but you at least have to ask the questions.
Maybe they'll tell the LVCVA that if they really want to support women's basketball they can contribute the same amount of money but it has to be split league-wise, not just to the Aces. It'd still be the best part of 10 grand to every player in the league. |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 05/21/24 5:14 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Does anyone believe the Aces didn't know this was going on? If I were investigating this, one of the first questions I'd ask is how did the LVCVA know who the agents were if they never spoke to the league, team or players. |
The most likely answer is this deal was initiated by one or more agents who approached the LVCVA.
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ChasingRatDogmaSalade
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
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| Posted: 05/21/24 5:15 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Does anyone believe the Aces didn't know this was going on? If I were investigating this, one of the first questions I'd ask is how did the LVCVA know who the agents were if they never spoke to the league, team or players. |
If a team is approached by a company/organization that wants to work on a deal with players, we are instructed to immediately send them to the agents. We are allowed to make those introductions. We just can't be involved at all in the negotiations.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 05/21/24 5:43 pm ::: |
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| craigmont wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| craigmont wrote: |
| Glad to hear that cheating is ok with you. Prospective owners will be thrilled. |
Tell prospective owners to get their weight up. If you can't afford to sit at the table, don't ante. |
Great! Why stop there then? Who can get the biggest briefcase full of cash to the referees? Maybe have your playoff opponents star player mysteriously fall ill or suffer an "accident?"
If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin, right? Rules and fairness are for naive children, not savvy guys like you! |
In an ideal world, you are 100% correct.
Is pitch-framing cheating? Shouldn't the catcher just catch the ball where it's pitched so everything's fair?
What about initiating contact on a drive to draw a foul? Cheating? Taking advantage of the rules? Or smart basketball?
Or slowing down with a player behind you to make her run into you?
If everybody played fair, why would we need refs? Players would just call their own fouls.
The reality is that money draws sharks, and sharks don't play by the rules. You can be pure, and not try to push the boundary, and then you might lose to a team that does.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 05/21/24 6:13 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| If everybody played fair, why would we need refs? Players would just call their own fouls. |
Thoroughly off-topic, but I was reading an article recently about sports trying to get into the Olympics. Ultimate frisbee is one of them, and even at the top level of the sport that's played without refs. Thought it was fascinating that they manage to make that work. |
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craigmont
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
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Location: Bing-town
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| Posted: 05/21/24 6:29 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| craigmont wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| craigmont wrote: |
| Glad to hear that cheating is ok with you. Prospective owners will be thrilled. |
Tell prospective owners to get their weight up. If you can't afford to sit at the table, don't ante. |
Great! Why stop there then? Who can get the biggest briefcase full of cash to the referees? Maybe have your playoff opponents star player mysteriously fall ill or suffer an "accident?"
If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin, right? Rules and fairness are for naive children, not savvy guys like you! |
In an ideal world, you are 100% correct.
Is pitch-framing cheating? Shouldn't the catcher just catch the ball where it's pitched so everything's fair?
What about initiating contact on a drive to draw a foul? Cheating? Taking advantage of the rules? Or smart basketball?
Or slowing down with a player behind you to make her run into you?
If everybody played fair, why would we need refs? Players would just call their own fouls.
The reality is that money draws sharks, and sharks don't play by the rules. You can be pure, and not try to push the boundary, and then you might lose to a team that does. |
Referees are there to enforce the rules of the game. If one team unilaterally decided they weren't going to dribble any more, there would be competitive consequences.
The salary cap, as outlined in the CBA, is a league rule that the players and all the owners agreed to abide by. We can debate the merits of that, and you can think it's cute that they're trying to find ways around it, but if the rules don't mean something, then is this just WWE-style entertainment in the end? (Maybe don't answer that.)
Nihilism and cynicism are lazy.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8264
Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 05/21/24 7:20 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| Just a sidenote kind of question, did the Vegas people try to go through the league first or just took it upon themselves? Wouldn't it have been easier to deal with the league first? |
What I recall from the announcement video and press reports I read is that the chair of the LVCVA said that they did not contact the league, the Aces team or any of the players about the money deal. They dealt solely with the players' agents. If that's true, no one ran it by the league for preapproval. |
The reason they were so specific about this, almost certainly, is that it's key to making it (they hope) legal. Obviously, if the team or Mark Davis funded it, it's illegal. But even if they organised it, or suggested the idea, then it's basically illegal. So the LVCVA have supposedly gone through each of the agents (I'd say all twelve, but in this league I bet it isn't that many) to set up the deal. Because then, they hope, it's the same as if Gatorade call A'ja Wilson's agent to say we want to pay you a million bucks to be in an advert for us.
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I agree with all of that. |
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8264
Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 05/21/24 7:23 pm ::: |
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| ChasingRatDogmaSalade wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Does anyone believe the Aces didn't know this was going on? If I were investigating this, one of the first questions I'd ask is how did the LVCVA know who the agents were if they never spoke to the league, team or players. |
If a team is approached by a company/organization that wants to work on a deal with players, we are instructed to immediately send them to the agents. We are allowed to make those introductions. We just can't be involved at all in the negotiations. |
Has the Aces organization seen the contracts between its players and the LVCVA? |
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 05/21/24 7:37 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| ChasingRatDogmaSalade wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Does anyone believe the Aces didn't know this was going on? If I were investigating this, one of the first questions I'd ask is how did the LVCVA know who the agents were if they never spoke to the league, team or players. |
If a team is approached by a company/organization that wants to work on a deal with players, we are instructed to immediately send them to the agents. We are allowed to make those introductions. We just can't be involved at all in the negotiations. |
Has the Aces organization seen the contracts between its players and the LVCVA? |
Again important to emphasize that this investigation is not a legal process and operates under CBA rules that would never be allowed in court. I believe the established fact that last year, an independent arbitrator found the Aces guilty in the Hamby affair, and the team continues to deny any wrongdoing would mean any statements from LV in this year's matter can be met with skepticism. Sort of like when a convicted criminal goes in front of the parole board and refuses to accept guilt.
Last edited by canadaball on 05/21/24 11:24 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 05/21/24 8:24 pm ::: |
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| craigmont wrote: |
Great! Why stop there then? Who can get the biggest briefcase full of cash to the referees? Maybe have your playoff opponents star player mysteriously fall ill or suffer an "accident?"
If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin, right? Rules and fairness are for naive children, not savvy guys like you! |
If you're trying to change my mind with this reductio ad absurdum, it's not working. Frankly, it's giving, "Well, if we allow gay marriage, what's next? We let someone marry their horse?"
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ChasingRatDogmaSalade
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Posts: 596
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| Posted: 05/21/24 8:56 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| ChasingRatDogmaSalade wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Does anyone believe the Aces didn't know this was going on? If I were investigating this, one of the first questions I'd ask is how did the LVCVA know who the agents were if they never spoke to the league, team or players. |
If a team is approached by a company/organization that wants to work on a deal with players, we are instructed to immediately send them to the agents. We are allowed to make those introductions. We just can't be involved at all in the negotiations. |
Has the Aces organization seen the contracts between its players and the LVCVA? |
I would doubt it. No need to. Not our business.
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craigmont
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 1009
Location: Bing-town
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| Posted: 05/21/24 9:31 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| craigmont wrote: |
Great! Why stop there then? Who can get the biggest briefcase full of cash to the referees? Maybe have your playoff opponents star player mysteriously fall ill or suffer an "accident?"
If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin, right? Rules and fairness are for naive children, not savvy guys like you! |
If you're trying to change my mind with this reductio ad absurdum, it's not working. Frankly, it's giving, "Well, if we allow gay marriage, what's next? We let someone marry their horse?" |
What do you advocate then?
Have a salary cap but look the other way when the wealthier teams exploit clever loopholes to circumvent it?
A soft cap with a luxury tax?
Or no cap at all? That could be fun while it lasts! Russian Oligarch Style!
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8264
Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 05/21/24 11:36 pm ::: |
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| ChasingRatDogmaSalade wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| ChasingRatDogmaSalade wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Does anyone believe the Aces didn't know this was going on? If I were investigating this, one of the first questions I'd ask is how did the LVCVA know who the agents were if they never spoke to the league, team or players. |
If a team is approached by a company/organization that wants to work on a deal with players, we are instructed to immediately send them to the agents. We are allowed to make those introductions. We just can't be involved at all in the negotiations. |
Has the Aces organization seen the contracts between its players and the LVCVA? |
I would doubt it. No need to. Not our business. |
So, when the entire board of directors of the LVCVA marched into the Aces locker room—surely an unprecedented event—are you claiming that the entire Aces administration and coaching staff had no idea why they were there or what they were going to announce? Or are you saying that you, personally, don't really know? (BTW, I for one appreciate your willingness to participate in this controversial thread.)
I should think the team would have wanted to know what was in those contracts, if only to make sure that the arrangements wouldn't drag the team into a CBA investigation or possible litigation from other teams. As those contracts now sort of have, or may do. |
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 05/22/24 8:51 am ::: |
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| craigmont wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| craigmont wrote: |
Great! Why stop there then? Who can get the biggest briefcase full of cash to the referees? Maybe have your playoff opponents star player mysteriously fall ill or suffer an "accident?"
If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin, right? Rules and fairness are for naive children, not savvy guys like you! |
If you're trying to change my mind with this reductio ad absurdum, it's not working. Frankly, it's giving, "Well, if we allow gay marriage, what's next? We let someone marry their horse?" |
What do you advocate then?
Have a salary cap but look the other way when the wealthier teams exploit clever loopholes to circumvent it?
A soft cap with a luxury tax?
Or no cap at all? That could be fun while it lasts! Russian Oligarch Style! |
The issue for me is that this is an unenforceable rule. It has been circumvented numerous times already, and will continue to be circumvented.
The obvious solution is to pay the players more so that such under or around the table inducements don't matter, but the finances of the league don't really allow it. The WNBA is much more like college sports than the NBA, and there has yet to be a good solution at that level. What's happened, simply, is that the rich programs spend more money and get better results, and that's the way the W is headed.
It's unfortunate and unfair that Michael Alter can't compete with Joe Tsai and Joe Lacob when it comes to money, but that's the way it is. Success in the WNBA is going to begin with owners who have enough money to buy elite free agents, one way or another, and elite players who want to play together.
I guess what will happen is the market for elite players will be set at some level well above the official max, and if owners can't afford to pay that much, they won't get those elite players.
It's not a good "solution," but to imagine that competitive people, players and owners both, aren't going to do whatever they can to win ignores human nature.
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ChasingRatDogmaSalade
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
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Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: 05/22/24 9:57 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
So, when the entire board of directors of the LVCVA marched into the Aces locker room—surely an unprecedented event—are you claiming that the entire Aces administration and coaching staff had no idea why they were there or what they were going to announce? Or are you saying that you, personally, don't really know? (BTW, I for one appreciate your willingness to participate in this controversial thread.)
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No. Not claiming that.
To be clear, I had (and still have) no direct knowledge of how these deals came about or what is in them.
But if the LVCVA approached us about the players, and we sent the LVCVA to the agents, and the LVCVA struck deals with all the agents, and the LVCVA wanted to announce the deals in a surprise manner to the players, they could come to us and see what made sense to speak to the team as a group.
Some part of "we" could have been aware that deals were likely to be struck if we made the introductions, but we still have no need to know what is in the deals. I'm pretty sure we don't know what is in any of the players' shoe deals or Mountain Dew deals, etc.
This is obviously unique in that they approached an entire team, but the basics of what happened—entity signs players to endorsement deal—are pretty generic and straight forward.
Again, my semi-uneducated thoughts, and not to be considered any kind of formal statement of anything. Just theorizing like a fan.
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craigmont
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
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Location: Bing-town
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| Posted: 05/22/24 9:58 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
It's not a good "solution," but to imagine that competitive people, players and owners both, aren't going to do whatever they can to win ignores human nature. |
Thanks for once again 'splaining "the way it is."
We all get it.
It's because of that human nature that there are rules. Are you suggesting the league shouldn't even try to enforce a rule?
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