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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1898
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Posted: 06/02/22 1:57 pm ::: WNBA expansion could add 2 teams before 2024 |
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https://theathletic.com/3343324/2022/06/02/wnba-expansion-possible-cities/
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Commissioner Cathy Engelbert told The Athletic she hopes to identify one or two cities for an expansion franchise by the start of the WNBA playoffs in September or by year’s end at the latest. Those new teams could begin to play as early as the 2024 season, she said. |
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1898
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Posted: 06/02/22 2:04 pm ::: |
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Engelbert said that number does not account for the full value of the WNBA, only the league itself. She told The Athletic that the value of the WNBA’s 12 individual teams plus the league itself is worth over $1 billion. Though that method of valuation is unusual in comparison to how other professional sports leagues conduct their valuations, it also places the average value of a WNBA team at more than $43.75 million. |
Dave Berry is going to love this tidbit as he's always argued the NBA and by proxy the W undervalues it's worth.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24408 Location: London
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Posted: 06/02/22 3:14 pm ::: |
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We saw that same 'creative' maths when they did the capital raise. They kept claiming the valuation of the league was over a billion dollars, then sold 16% of the league for $75 million.
What things are worth, generally speaking, is what someone would be willing to pay for them. If any of the recent buyers had paid anything like what Engelbert is claiming the individual franchises are worth, the numbers would've been leaked. It'll similarly be interesting to see if they're open about the 'franchise fee' that new owners would presumably pay for an expansion team... |
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1898
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Posted: 06/02/22 3:31 pm ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
We saw that same 'creative' maths when they did the capital raise. They kept claiming the valuation of the league was over a billion dollars, then sold 16% of the league for $75 million.
What things are worth, generally speaking, is what someone would be willing to pay for them. If any of the recent buyers had paid anything like what Engelbert is claiming the individual franchises are worth, the numbers would've been leaked. It'll similarly be interesting to see if they're open about the 'franchise fee' that new owners would presumably pay for an expansion team... |
It's been interesting to see how figured have been handled in her tenure. I like that she is hyping up the value instead of downplaying it. It also depends on how you measure value. I flrefuse to believe any of the non NBA owned teams are losing money every year. There is just no way the owners of Seattle, Chicago, Atlanta, or probably even Connecticut could weather yearly losses like that.
I doubt we'll ever know the reality of the leagues finances, but I really like how Cathy has approached the business side of things and the league has been on a huge upswing (even dating back to Lisa Border's tenure).
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16385 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 06/02/22 4:24 pm ::: Re: WNBA expansion could add 2 teams before 2024 |
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Surely they won't do it like this, but in 2024, there would two players coming out that would pretty great to start a franchise around.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24408 Location: London
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Posted: 06/02/22 4:30 pm ::: Re: WNBA expansion could add 2 teams before 2024 |
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PUmatty wrote: |
Surely they won't do it like this, but in 2024, there would two players coming out that would pretty great to start a franchise around. |
Expansion teams don't get the top picks, based on NBA and WNBA history. They usually pick just below the lottery.
As always, part of the problem with trying to come up with rules that give expansion teams a chance to get off to a decent start is that the owners of the existing teams have to agree to the rules. Understandably, they don't want to give too much up. |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67127 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 06/02/22 4:47 pm ::: |
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Despite having the deck stacked against them 70% of expansion teams have made the playoffs within their first three seasons.
_________________ I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1898
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Posted: 06/02/22 9:19 pm ::: |
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I really wonder how the Fever will impact this expansion. You can't have a team averaging 1,500 fans. I'd love to see Indianapolis support the team but I think the years of being absolutely terrible has killed that fanbase. We know the owners are ambivalent.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9776
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Posted: 06/02/22 10:48 pm ::: |
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Atlanta is also a candidate to be moved.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6827
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Posted: 06/02/22 11:33 pm ::: |
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With the higher saleries expansion teams will be able to offer some mid level stars much bigger money than other teams in their first few years of existence. Maybe not a recipe for contending but could move them away from being terrible/unwatchable quicker.
I wonder if they would try to add one in 23 and one in 24 or do it all at once?
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67127 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 06/18/22 1:34 pm ::: |
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Jeff Walz, Angel McCoughtry Advocating for WNBA to Louisville
https://www.si.com/college/louisville/basketball/walz-mccoughtry-advocating-wnba-to-louisville
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There is precedent for the WNBA establishing a franchise due to the popularity of the college game in a market. The Orlando Miracle relocated to Uncasville, Conn. in 2003, then rebranded as the Connecticut Sun in part due to the popularity of women's college basketball in the state |
_________________ I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1898
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Posted: 06/18/22 5:46 pm ::: |
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See, I kind of don't love this. I kind of like these college WBB hotspots having their territory. The Sun are an anomaly and aren't in the same city as UConn.
I'm all for expansion wherever there is a viable fanbase and ownership group though.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9776
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Posted: 06/18/22 7:39 pm ::: |
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Quote: |
Engelbert said that the WNBA has trimmed their list of potential cities down to 10 to 12 cities, and will run each city through 25 data points within five categories:
demographics,
psychographics,
sports benchmarks,
viewership and
fan data.
The WNBA hasn't expanded since the Atlanta Dream were established in 2008. |
Have to wonder if they are expecting to get an ownership group outside of an area to buy a franchise as just happened in Atlanta. Otherwise you have to include "# of ownership groups willing to put up the $15 to $20 million we are now valuing a new franchise purchase at".
Psychographics?
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1898
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Posted: 06/18/22 8:08 pm ::: |
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tfan wrote: |
Quote: |
Engelbert said that the WNBA has trimmed their list of potential cities down to 10 to 12 cities, and will run each city through 25 data points within five categories:
demographics,
psychographics,
sports benchmarks,
viewership and
fan data.
The WNBA hasn't expanded since the Atlanta Dream were established in 2008. |
Have to wonder if they are expecting to get an ownership group outside of an area to buy a franchise as just happened in Atlanta. Otherwise you have to include "# of ownership groups willing to put up the $15 to $20 million we are now valuing a new franchise purchase at".
Psychographics? |
Is anyone from Yum Brands interested in owning a team?
Also, it's interesting that the majority of talk in a lot of these discussions is "Hey, WNBA, out a team here!" as if ownership groups are an afterthought..do people expect the W to own and operate these new teams?
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24408 Location: London
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Posted: 06/18/22 8:51 pm ::: |
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johnjohnW wrote: |
Is anyone from Yum Brands interested in owning a team?
Also, it's interesting that the majority of talk in a lot of these discussions is "Hey, WNBA, out a team here!" as if ownership groups are an afterthought..do people expect the W to own and operate these new teams? |
Understadable though, considering a lot of the noise coming from the league seems to be in regards to identifying the city/cities they want to put teams in first, rather than listening to potential ownership groups and then going where the best of those takes them. Seems like the place is coming before the people from both directions.
In fact, I wonder if that was part of releasing that supposed list of six potential cities in the Athletic article that came out fairly recently. Maybe then, rather than picking which of that shortlist you want to put a team in, you wait and see what appears from any of them, then say "this was our pick all along!" when it goes to the best ownership groups that come forward from any of those places. |
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9776
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Posted: 06/18/22 11:05 pm ::: |
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The WNBA has raised $75 million in funds from a group of equity investors that includes Nike, retired NBA players Baron Davis and Pau Gasol, and former U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. |
I don't know how the WNBA is using or will use the $75 million, but it seems like that investment forces them to try and expand. Maybe that money will be used to create two ownership groups in two cities the WNBA selects. At least that makes more sense to me than the investors becoming minority owners of the WNBA and sharing profits/losses with the NBA.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67127 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 06/21/22 10:33 am ::: |
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With expansion coming, WNBA players want owners willing to spend
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/06/21/wnba-expansion-owners-spending
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That has led to a dichotomy between teams that would like to spend more freely and those that can’t or don’t want to. Two of the league’s newest owners, the Las Vegas Aces’ Mark Davis and the New York Liberty’s Joseph Tsai, made headlines in the past year about their desire to spend. The Aces are building a new practice facility and made Becky Hammon the first coach with an annual salary of more than $1 million. The Liberty was fined by the WNBA last year for chartering flights, which is not permitted.
That fine and the ongoing back-and-forth over players flying commercial for games became an example of that dichotomy. Should teams be allowed to spend more freely, which could lead to a competitive advantage? |
_________________ I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67127 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 06/21/22 8:46 pm ::: |
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Seeing what Maya Caldwell was able to do coming in fresh suggests there's plenty of talent for expansion
_________________ I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67127 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 08/16/22 4:50 pm ::: |
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How Oakland and Toronto have prepared for WNBA expansion bids, and other cities in the running
https://sports.yahoo.com/how-oakland-and-toronto-have-prepared-for-wnba-expansion-bids-and-other-cities-in-the-running-192259131.html
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Yahoo Sports spoke with two ownership groups actively cultivating bids for a WNBA expansion team about how they’re selling their cities to the league. Fans in each market also shared why now is the best time to bring women’s professional hoops to their hometowns. Here’s what we found. |
_________________ I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1898
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Posted: 08/16/22 5:48 pm ::: |
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In 2019, Abrahams said the group was approached by an existing franchise about purchasing it and relocating to Canada. After going through the process and submitting a letter of intent for purchase, NMSE lost the bid. |
I'd like to know more about this sentence.
I wonder what their bid was for the Liberty.
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DTP
Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 6439 Location: Ohio
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Posted: 08/17/22 3:29 am ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Seeing what Maya Caldwell was able to do coming in fresh suggests there's plenty of talent for expansion |
I would argue more for roster expansion than league expansion at this point. Whenever I see any type of practice film, it's going against practice guys which makes me think these teams get very little, if any, time to actually have real competitive scrimmages against other women. I would love for us to get to a place where the min roster size is 12 and max is 13-14.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67127 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 08/17/22 12:56 pm ::: |
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As WNBA enters 'tipping point,' key questions remain on how to approach expansion
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/as-wnba-enters-tipping-point-key-questions-remain-on-how-to-approach-expansion-192119713.html
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Before she became college basketball’s most dominant player, South Carolina’s Aliyah Boston studied WNBA players like Candace Parker and A’ja Wilson. If a woman in the post made a move that stood out, Boston, 20, would point it out to her parents and say, “I need to go practice that.” |
_________________ I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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BamaEd
Joined: 11 May 2014 Posts: 874 Location: United States
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Posted: 08/17/22 1:49 pm ::: |
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DTP wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Seeing what Maya Caldwell was able to do coming in fresh suggests there's plenty of talent for expansion |
I would argue more for roster expansion than league expansion at this point. Whenever I see any type of practice film, it's going against practice guys which makes me think these teams get very little, if any, time to actually have real competitive scrimmages against other women. I would love for us to get to a place where the min roster size is 12 and max is 13-14. |
My only question about that is, would the extra 2 on the roster get much playing time? Would the money work for teams to have a full 13-14 players? I think even the 11 player teams don't play that 11th player a ton. Team expansion would lead to more playing time than roster expansion, right?
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67127 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 08/17/22 2:18 pm ::: |
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BamaEd wrote: |
DTP wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Seeing what Maya Caldwell was able to do coming in fresh suggests there's plenty of talent for expansion |
I would argue more for roster expansion than league expansion at this point. Whenever I see any type of practice film, it's going against practice guys which makes me think these teams get very little, if any, time to actually have real competitive scrimmages against other women. I would love for us to get to a place where the min roster size is 12 and max is 13-14. |
My only question about that is, would the extra 2 on the roster get much playing time? Would the money work for teams to have a full 13-14 players? I think even the 11 player teams don't play that 11th player a ton. Team expansion would lead to more playing time than roster expansion, right? |
Roster expansion would mean less of the hardship contract nonsense
_________________ I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24408 Location: London
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Posted: 08/17/22 2:43 pm ::: |
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Roster expansion would be complicated without re-writing a meaningful chunk of the CBA. The team cap numbers are specified through 2027, so are you going to require teams to fit 13-14 players under the same cap? Are we re-writing the cap numbers entirely? I doubt we see change like that until 2026 (both sides can opt out of the CBA after the 2025 season, and invariably one side or the other does). |
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