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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 08/04/18 12:52 am ::: |
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Some people have extraordinary arrogance. I will bet that Calbearman76 has never met Ms. Peters and surely doesn't know her well. Yet Calbearman76 (whom I'm guessing is male) KNOWS that Ms. Peters would be "better off" not complaining about the stupid, misogynistic men she has to deal with.
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009 Posts: 5167 Location: Carson City
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Posted: 08/04/18 2:02 am ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
Some people have extraordinary arrogance. I will bet that Calbearman76 has never met Ms. Peters and surely doesn't know her well. Yet Calbearman76 (whom I'm guessing is male) KNOWS that Ms. Peters would be "better off" not complaining about the stupid, misogynistic men she has to deal with. |
I have never met her. I am male. And since you chose to capitalize the word "KNOWS," please realize I didn't use the word. I said she would be better off not complaining about that type of annoyance, in the same way that I would say that about many other people who come off as whining about something that annoys them but which is presumably out of her control. It is clearly my opinion, and to read it otherwise is unnecessarily argumentative. She can choose to allow this to bother her or she can choose to ignore it. Writing this column means she has not chosen to ignore it. But I will make this small change.
I believe that she would be better served to not complain about this type of annoyance. Hopefully the column was her way of making a statement that will allow her to do so. Otherwise she is allowing those jerks to upset her, and they are not worth it.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21999
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Posted: 08/04/18 2:13 am ::: |
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Hey females, are you being disrespected and treated unfairly just because of your gender?
Just shut up and the problem goes away. (See, the problem isn't all the unfair treatment, it is you being high maintenance about it, having no sense of humour about it, being a bitch about it, etc. Us men are getting kinda tired of having to hear about it)
So IMO there is merit in cal's "don't let them get to you" advice, but there's also merit in speaking up, because failing to do so will 100% guarantee that things don't change.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16467 Location: Holland
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Posted: 08/04/18 7:54 am ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
Hey females, are you being disrespected and treated unfairly just because of your gender?
Just shut up and the problem goes away. (See, the problem isn't all the unfair treatment, it is you being high maintenance about it, having no sense of humour about it, being a bitch about it, etc. Us men are getting kinda tired of having to hear about it)
So IMO there is merit in cal's "don't let them get to you" advice, but there's also merit in speaking up, because failing to do so will 100% guarantee that things don't change. |
And compairing what they earn with the average of a country is not really a good comparison. This is not some sort of hobby. They are the best in the world in what they do
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11232
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Posted: 08/04/18 9:36 am ::: |
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A certain amount of "harassment," for lack of a better word, comes with almost every profession, from journalist to auto repair to professional basketball.
The fact that people are interested in her job and her skills is not what I would call a negative, but maybe the tone and attitude of the people coming up to her is really annoying.
Still, as a journalist and a coach, I've dealt with a lot of such stuff, and it comes with the territory. I'm not saying it isn't annoying, but I don't know that I'd write about it either.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21999
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Posted: 08/04/18 9:45 am ::: |
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You really think your personal experience is comparable to hers though?
And that "harassment" comment just seems way off the mark to me FWIW.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Posted: 08/04/18 9:52 am ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
A certain amount of "harassment," for lack of a better word, comes with almost every profession, from journalist to auto repair to professional basketball. |
I'd argue that the disconnect is over what should and should not be considered tolerable levels of "a certain amount" of harassment. Mileage may vary on that but, I'll tell you what, and I'll die on this hill, the arbiter of what level of harassment should be considered tolerable must not be the harasser.
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The fact that people are interested in her job and her skills is not what I would call a negative... |
It's not inherently a negative but, again, that requires taking people at face value, and assuming that every (or even most) of the so-called "interested" parties are approaching these women in good faith. I am disinclined to give these people that much benefit of the doubt.
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Still, as a journalist and a coach, I've dealt with a lot of such stuff, and it comes with the territory. |
Translation: I had to put up with bullshit, so you should, too. What happened to wanting our kids to have it better than we had it?
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3519
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Posted: 08/04/18 10:04 am ::: |
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Sometimes you have to put up with a certain amount of bullshit so you can spend your time fighting the battles that really matter. I'd call this issue bullshit and not an important battle, but then again, I don't walk in her shoes.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Posted: 08/04/18 10:38 am ::: |
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FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Sometimes you have to put up with a certain amount of bullshit so you can spend your time fighting the battles that really matter... |
Stipulating, for the sake of argument, that I agreed that this is not a battle that "really matters" (I don't agree, but alas), it still begs the question of who gets to decide how much bullshit one should expect to have to put up with?
It goes back to that Twitter example I used earlier: it's real easy for someone who may have to deal with one jackass a week to tell the person who has to deal with a hundred jackasses a day that they should just "put up with it."
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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Admiral_Needa
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 10482 Location: Tiburon, CA
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 08/04/18 10:51 am ::: |
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It's really depressing how many comments here--at least some from men, probably many--simply will not face the meaning of gender, sexism, and misogyny in our culture and others.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11232
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Posted: 08/04/18 11:00 am ::: |
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>I'd argue that the disconnect is over what should and should not be considered tolerable levels of "a certain amount" of harassment. Mileage may vary on that but, I'll tell you what, and I'll die on this hill, the arbiter of what level of harassment should be considered tolerable must not be the harasser.
Of course. Some of the people who approach us are jerks. Some are not.
>It's not inherently a negative but, again, that requires taking people at face value, and assuming that every (or even most) of the so-called "interested" parties are approaching these women in good faith. I am disinclined to give these people that much benefit of the doubt.
This is more a question of how an individual looks at the world. Some view strangers as intruders at best and dangers at worst; others look at people in a more positive light, and assume the best, given the circumstances.
>Translation: I had to put up with bullshit, so you should, too. What happened to wanting our kids to have it better than we had it?
So many, if not most, times I've dealt with strangers and/or people who had an interest in my profession or what I'd written or why I didn't play their daughter have been fine. Communication occurred in a somewhat positive manner.
Other times, things did not go as well, but I think the question is whether the negative outweighs the positive.
Clearly, she feels that most of it is negative, and it bothers her. That's fine, but again, I don't think she can know the motivations of those people who approach her, and though she can assume the worst, it might not always be true, or even true most of the time. So complaining publicly about people interested in the WNBA and women's basketball just doesn't seem justified to me. (Now if there are verbal assaults, different story ... but saying "Hey, I'd like to play you one-on-one" doesn't necessarily qualify as an assault.)
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Posted: 08/04/18 11:44 am ::: |
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It might not qualify as an "assault," but it absolutely qualifies as a microaggression. And people's opinions of how bothersome microaggressions are tend to be informed by how often they have to deal with them.
RE: not knowing other people's motives, of course you can't. None of us can read minds. But, as I said already, you appear to be way more disposed to giving the benefit of the doubt that I am.
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justinabina
Joined: 19 May 2014 Posts: 162
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Posted: 08/04/18 11:57 am ::: |
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It is disheartening - kind of heartbreaking, to be honest, if familiar - to read several posts dismissing Peters' experiences, even though she is not the only player to have voiced frustration with misogyny in various forms. But it is a reminder that it is easier for people who don't deal with misogyny (in ways both little and large) to dismiss it. It really isn't possible to communicate to everyone that even small instances of casual sexism, like online comments about going back to the kitchen, are still painful, even when they're predictable and therefore something women should supposedly be able to ignore, especially if they lead seemingly "comfortable" and class-privileged lives.
I wish people would see that attitudes & stereotypes, including the apparently innocuous, are deeply connected to more explicit institutionalized acts of discrimination. That there is a symbiotic (ugh, for lack of a better word) relationship between those things.
And I wish that people would try to consider that speaking out against attitudes that have been perpetually frustrating and hurtful could, in fact, be the most assertive way to respond to them.
I can only hope that there is a time when enough WNBA players have spoken out about pay inequality, about disrespect from online trolls, about simply wanting to be taken seriously by the mainstream - that some of the posters in this thread will finally believe them. Or at least try to look at the world from their perspectives.
By the way, if you haven't seen it before and are curious, here is a thoughtful article from Kareem Abdul-Jabbar about misogyny in sports: http://time.com/2853780/kareem-abdul-jabbar-we-need-to-stamp-out-misogyny-in-sports/
I think I may have first come across that article on this very forum. I've used it in classroom discussions over the years. Many of the boys in my classes are quick to dismiss female sports and female athletes and laugh about the WNBA - but then are impressed when, as part of the discussion, we look at clips of WNBA athletes in action. Some of them continue to wonder what the big deal is. Their attitudes about female athletes are, it seems, often simply a product of ignorance - and they've had those attitudes shaped by the wider world from the time they're quite young.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 08/04/18 12:49 pm ::: |
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justinabina wrote: |
It is disheartening - kind of heartbreaking, to be honest, if familiar - to read several posts dismissing Peters' experiences, even though she is not the only player to have voiced frustration with misogyny in various forms. But it is a reminder that it is easier for people who don't deal with misogyny (in ways both little and large) to dismiss it. It really isn't possible to communicate to everyone that even small instances of casual sexism, like online comments about going back to the kitchen, are still painful, even when they're predictable and therefore something women should supposedly be able to ignore, especially if they lead seemingly "comfortable" and class-privileged lives.
I wish people would see that attitudes & stereotypes, including the apparently innocuous, are deeply connected to more explicit institutionalized acts of discrimination. That there is a symbiotic (ugh, for lack of a better word) relationship between those things.
And I wish that people would try to consider that speaking out against attitudes that have been perpetually frustrating and hurtful could, in fact, be the most assertive way to respond to them.
I can only hope that there is a time when enough WNBA players have spoken out about pay inequality, about disrespect from online trolls, about simply wanting to be taken seriously by the mainstream - that some of the posters in this thread will finally believe them. Or at least try to look at the world from their perspectives.
By the way, if you haven't seen it before and are curious, here is a thoughtful article from Kareem Abdul-Jabbar about misogyny in sports: http://time.com/2853780/kareem-abdul-jabbar-we-need-to-stamp-out-misogyny-in-sports/
I think I may have first come across that article on this very forum. I've used it in classroom discussions over the years. Many of the boys in my classes are quick to dismiss female sports and female athletes and laugh about the WNBA - but then are impressed when, as part of the discussion, we look at clips of WNBA athletes in action. Some of them continue to wonder what the big deal is. Their attitudes about female athletes are, it seems, often simply a product of ignorance - and they've had those attitudes shaped by the wider world from the time they're quite young. |
I completely agree with all you've written here. How wonderful that you've used Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's valuable article in your classes to raise issues about misogyny in sports. We need many more teachers like you, everywhere from preschool to universities.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11232
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Posted: 08/04/18 1:15 pm ::: |
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We are going round and round here, but this seems key to me:
>Their attitudes about female athletes are, it seems, often simply a product of ignorance - and they've had those attitudes shaped by the wider world from the time they're quite young.
There's nothing like getting schooled by a female player to erase ignorance of the level of play in the WNBA.
I'm not saying Peters or anyone should do it, or WNBA players should play pickup with guys whenever possible, but there's nothing like seeing an elite female athlete up close to make their skill level palpable.
Those who are lucky enough to sit courtside at WNBA games know what I mean: The game from a few feet away is incredibly physical and athletic; on TV, it's nowhere close to the reality.
Imagine playing against a Sylvia Fowles or Sue Bird or Devereaux Peters -- how much more would you appreciate the level of play in the WNBA?
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 08/04/18 1:27 pm ::: |
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I think the article also highlights an important point. Sexism in of itself plays a large part in the attitude described by Devereaux Peters. It isn’t about the basketball ability of the players on its own merit. To me that’s terribly frustrating. The general attitude of these types against the WNBA is more about false beliefs than reality.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 19848
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Posted: 08/04/18 2:03 pm ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
calbearman76 wrote: |
justinabina wrote: |
RavenDog wrote: |
Although none of this behavior is appreciated or acceptable, it's part of life and a growing maturity. Devereaux needs to get a grip on her insecurities and move on. |
I wonder if we read the same article. Where did you see her expressing insecurity? |
Her article may not show insecurity, but it does show annoyance, and so I agree that Peters should get over it. She is complaining about her situation when she needn't prove herself or even react. I have my own complaints about the way I am sometimes treated by people who nothing of who I am, and while it may bother me I wouldn't write about it in the Washington Post.
It is never a good look to play the victim and at least in this article she comes off that way. Be thankful for your skill and your success because I know there are many women who would love to have those same men say ANYTHING to them. You can always choose not to engage. |
Her entire career is constantly, relentlessly subjected to disrespect and ridicule. IMO she has every right to be annoyed by that. I'd be stunned if anyone wasn't annoyed by that. I have nothing but applause & support to send her way. |
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The “ignore the haters and trolls” mentality is never helpful, anywhere. If you don’t speak out, the only voices heard are the “haters and trolls.”
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justinabina
Joined: 19 May 2014 Posts: 162
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Posted: 08/04/18 3:56 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
We are going round and round here, but this seems key to me:
>Their attitudes about female athletes are, it seems, often simply a product of ignorance - and they've had those attitudes shaped by the wider world from the time they're quite young.
There's nothing like getting schooled by a female player to erase ignorance of the level of play in the WNBA. |
I think what would be even more effective at eliminating ignorance is if men, especially fans of the game, would agree that when a female athlete states she is tired of sexist attitudes about her abilities, she is telling the truth about her experiences, and her experiences are a consequence of wider spread misogyny. And having those same men teach young boys, Yes, there is sexism in this world, here is an example of it, and here is how to avoid contributing to it, so that we can continue erasing it.
To me, this is a much more effective method than hoping that WNBA players will agree to one-on-ones with men - it's likelier to reach many more people, since there aren't very many WNBA players, and they're quite busy with their jobs and overseas commitments. We're all in this together. We can all help.
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calbearman76
Joined: 02 Nov 2009 Posts: 5167 Location: Carson City
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Posted: 08/04/18 4:06 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
It might not qualify as an "assault," but it absolutely qualifies as a microaggression. And people's opinions of how bothersome microaggressions are tend to be informed by how often they have to deal with them.
RE: not knowing other people's motives, of course you can't. None of us can read minds. But, as I said already, you appear to be way more disposed to giving the benefit of the doubt that I am. |
I am much more disposed to giving people the benefit of the doubt and wish I could be even better at it. Going through life ascribing bad motives to others on the basis of a quick, very possibly benign, interaction isn't helpful. Even the term "microaggression" reeks of whining. Of course that means that I will sometimes let things go that come back to bite me, but overall I believe that is a better way to live.
The tall, physically-imposing, black woman certainly faces challenges in a society that generally rewards other characteristics. It isn't fair that a tall, physically imposing white man doesn't face the same challenges.
But to get back to Ms. Peters, do you believe that the men she is criticizing are going to read this column and have an epiphany. I can assure you I am far more liberal than most people but this still comes off to me as whining. So what exactly does she gain by writing it? She is annoyed. If I met her I won't challenge her to a 1-on-1 on the court, but I wouldn't have before. And for the record if we did play I would lose. Bad.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 08/04/18 5:09 pm ::: |
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justinabina wrote: |
ClayK wrote: |
We are going round and round here, but this seems key to me:
>Their attitudes about female athletes are, it seems, often simply a product of ignorance - and they've had those attitudes shaped by the wider world from the time they're quite young.
There's nothing like getting schooled by a female player to erase ignorance of the level of play in the WNBA. |
I think what would be even more effective at eliminating ignorance is if men, especially fans of the game, would agree that when a female athlete states she is tired of sexist attitudes about her abilities, she is telling the truth about her experiences, and her experiences are a consequence of wider spread misogyny. And having those same men teach young boys, Yes, there is sexism in this world, here is an example of it, and here is how to avoid contributing to it, so that we can continue erasing it.
To me, this is a much more effective method than hoping that WNBA players will agree to one-on-ones with men - it's likelier to reach many more people, since there aren't very many WNBA players, and they're quite busy with their jobs and overseas commitments. We're all in this together. We can all help. |
Yes.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3396
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Posted: 08/04/18 5:09 pm ::: |
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calbearman76 wrote: |
I am much more disposed to giving people the benefit of the doubt and wish I could be even better at it. Going through life ascribing bad motives to others on the basis of a quick, very possibly benign, interaction isn't helpful. |
Do you, then. I'm a believer in "When people tell you who they are, believe them." Like, I can't remember where I heard it first, but if someone is asking questions, they might be sincere; if someone is "just asking questions," they're almost definitely not. After a while, you tend to become sensitive to the way in which people express their "interest."
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Even the term "microaggression" reeks of whining. |
A whole lot of privilege coming off of this statement. Also, referring to microagressions as "whining" is really just another way of saying that you don't have any empathy for the people who are subject to them.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 08/04/18 5:24 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
calbearman76 wrote: |
I am much more disposed to giving people the benefit of the doubt and wish I could be even better at it. Going through life ascribing bad motives to others on the basis of a quick, very possibly benign, interaction isn't helpful. |
Do you, then. I'm a believer in "When people tell you who they are, believe them." Like, I can't remember where I heard it first, but if someone is asking questions, they might be sincere; if someone is "just asking questions," they're almost definitely not. After a while, you tend to become sensitive to the way in which people express their "interest."
Quote: |
Even the term "microaggression" reeks of whining. |
A whole lot of privilege coming off of this statement. Also, referring to microagressions as "whining" is really just another way of saying that you don't have any empathy for the people who are subject to them. |
I find the repeated use of "whining" here to be really outrageous. People facing bias, discrimination, oppression, are always supposed to shut up. And way too many men always want women to shut up.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21999
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Posted: 08/04/18 7:37 pm ::: |
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Thanks for your contributions to this thread, justinabina.
I too am a bit disheartened because I thought that this board of all places would be much more in tune with this issue. I don't feel particularly comfortable speaking on it and was hoping for some female voices here.
What Peters is describing is just one small element of a much bigger problem. I thought that was kinda obvious but I guess not. I also thought that hearing a player's perspective on things would be insightful and maybe a bit eye-opening but maybe I judged that incorrectly.
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PickledGinger
Joined: 04 Oct 2013 Posts: 1380
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Posted: 08/04/18 8:57 pm ::: |
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calbearman76 wrote: |
Bob Lamm wrote: |
Some people have extraordinary arrogance. I will bet that Calbearman76 has never met Ms. Peters and surely doesn't know her well. Yet Calbearman76 (whom I'm guessing is male) KNOWS that Ms. Peters would be "better off" not complaining about the stupid, misogynistic men she has to deal with. |
I have never met her. I am male. And since you chose to capitalize the word "KNOWS," please realize I didn't use the word. I said she would be better off not complaining about that type of annoyance, in the same way that I would say that about many other people who come off as whining about something that annoys them but which is presumably out of her control. It is clearly my opinion, and to read it otherwise is unnecessarily argumentative. She can choose to allow this to bother her or she can choose to ignore it. Writing this column means she has not chosen to ignore it. But I will make this small change.
I believe that she would be better served to not complain about this type of annoyance. Hopefully the column was her way of making a statement that will allow her to do so. Otherwise she is allowing those jerks to upset her, and they are not worth it. |
First off, going beyond the absolute victim-blaming, you are completely ignoring the whole point she is trying to make an, in fact, kind of proving it.
calbearman76 wrote: |
Going through life ascribing bad motives to others on the basis of a quick, very possibly benign, interaction isn't helpful. |
While the intent might be benign, the action is inherently disrespectful. And the fact that some people *cough* don't see HOW that is disrespectful, the the issue she is trying to point out here.
You're essentially saying that it is a woman's role to not react to disrespect, without holding the man accountable for his actions in the first place.
"If she didn't want to get raped, she wouldn't have gotten drunk!" Right?
Last edited by PickledGinger on 08/04/18 9:09 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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