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hangtyme24
Joined: 21 May 2006 Posts: 2445
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Posted: 11/20/16 12:53 am ::: |
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If we don't bring back Wauters and Dublevic would we be able to afford someone like Camille Little?
Toliver/Gray
Beard/Williams
Carson/Dabovic
Parker/Little
Ogwumike/Lavender
Plus our #4 pick.
_________________ HERE 2 STAY!
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jap
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 Posts: 7939
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Posted: 11/20/16 2:51 am ::: |
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hangtyme24 wrote: |
If we don't bring back Wauters and Dublevic would we be able to afford someone like Camille Little?
Toliver/Gray
Beard/Williams
Carson/Dabovic
Parker/Little
Ogwumike/Lavender
Plus our #4 pick. |
Isn't Marianna Tolo interested in rejoining the party? She may not be a big scoring threat, but she plays defense well and converts dirty points.
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J A P
Last edited by jap on 11/20/16 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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WfanFrJmp
Joined: 24 May 2016 Posts: 1427
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22476 Location: NJ
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Posted: 11/20/16 9:09 am ::: |
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Tolo could replace Gruda at backing up the 4 spot. Then bring in a younger post as the 5th post option(Hamson?).
PG: Toliver/Gray
SG: Beard/Williams/Dabovic
SF: Carson/draft pick
PF: Parker/Tolo
C: Ogwumike/Lavender/Hamson
_________________ LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!
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jap
Joined: 01 Apr 2007 Posts: 7939
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Posted: 11/20/16 9:36 am ::: |
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toad455 wrote: |
Tolo could replace Gruda at backing up the 4 spot. Then bring in a younger post as the 5th post option(Hamson?).
PG: Toliver/Gray
SG: Beard/Williams/Dabovic
SF: Carson/draft pick
PF: Parker/Tolo
C: Ogwumike/Lavender/Hamson |
This is all assuming Alana comes back, which isn't a certainty. I want her back for at least one more season, but only she can decide whether her body, mind, & spirit have had enough.
_________________ Regards,
J A P
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16464 Location: Holland
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Posted: 11/20/16 1:46 pm ::: |
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toad455 wrote: |
Tolo could replace Gruda at backing up the 4 spot. Then bring in a younger post as the 5th post option(Hamson?).
PG: Toliver/Gray
SG: Beard/Williams/Dabovic
SF: Carson/draft pick
PF: Parker/Tolo
C: Ogwumike/Lavender/Hamson |
Tolo is a true center while Lavender is a true PF..
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63875
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Posted: 11/20/16 2:41 pm ::: |
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Michelle89 wrote: |
toad455 wrote: |
Tolo could replace Gruda at backing up the 4 spot. Then bring in a younger post as the 5th post option(Hamson?).
PG: Toliver/Gray
SG: Beard/Williams/Dabovic
SF: Carson/draft pick
PF: Parker/Tolo
C: Ogwumike/Lavender/Hamson |
Tolo is a true center while Lavender is a true PF.. |
I would consider Lavender more of a center than Parker.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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hangtyme24
Joined: 21 May 2006 Posts: 2445
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CompSci87
Joined: 15 Mar 2009 Posts: 812 Location: Palo Alto, CA
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Posted: 11/20/16 9:49 pm ::: |
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Shades wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
toad455 wrote: |
Tolo could replace Gruda at backing up the 4 spot. Then bring in a younger post as the 5th post option(Hamson?).
PG: Toliver/Gray
SG: Beard/Williams/Dabovic
SF: Carson/draft pick
PF: Parker/Tolo
C: Ogwumike/Lavender/Hamson |
Tolo is a true center while Lavender is a true PF.. |
I would consider Lavender more of a center than Parker. |
Certainly by body type. It's odd how much better Lavender is at the face-up midrange game than in the low post, though.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63875
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Posted: 11/20/16 10:17 pm ::: |
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CompSci87 wrote: |
Shades wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
toad455 wrote: |
Tolo could replace Gruda at backing up the 4 spot. Then bring in a younger post as the 5th post option(Hamson?).
PG: Toliver/Gray
SG: Beard/Williams/Dabovic
SF: Carson/draft pick
PF: Parker/Tolo
C: Ogwumike/Lavender/Hamson |
Tolo is a true center while Lavender is a true PF.. |
I would consider Lavender more of a center than Parker. |
Certainly by body type. It's odd how much better Lavender is at the face-up midrange game than in the low post, though. |
Parker is good in the low post?
Didn't Parker play PF in college with Anosike as the center? Lavender was definitely a center in college.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16464 Location: Holland
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Posted: 11/21/16 1:39 am ::: |
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Shades wrote: |
CompSci87 wrote: |
Shades wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
toad455 wrote: |
Tolo could replace Gruda at backing up the 4 spot. Then bring in a younger post as the 5th post option(Hamson?).
PG: Toliver/Gray
SG: Beard/Williams/Dabovic
SF: Carson/draft pick
PF: Parker/Tolo
C: Ogwumike/Lavender/Hamson |
Tolo is a true center while Lavender is a true PF.. |
I would consider Lavender more of a center than Parker. |
Certainly by body type. It's odd how much better Lavender is at the face-up midrange game than in the low post, though. |
Parker is good in the low post?
Didn't Parker play PF in college with Anosike as the center? Lavender was definitely a center in college. |
I would consider both a PF. The few times that Parker is in the low post she has better a better game there then Lavender. Lavender wants to face up and shoot that elbow jumpshot every time she gets and teams let her..
But anyway Tolo would be cheaper then Little and give them some length against Griner Fowles etc. so that Ogwumike doesnt get into foul trouble against them. A post bench duo of Lavender and Tolo is pretty good.
Little and Lavender are too similar but Little ofcourse is a much better defender.
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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CompSci87
Joined: 15 Mar 2009 Posts: 812 Location: Palo Alto, CA
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Posted: 11/21/16 1:40 am ::: |
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Mispost
Last edited by CompSci87 on 11/21/16 1:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CompSci87
Joined: 15 Mar 2009 Posts: 812 Location: Palo Alto, CA
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Posted: 11/21/16 1:41 am ::: |
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Shades wrote: |
CompSci87 wrote: |
Shades wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
toad455 wrote: |
Tolo could replace Gruda at backing up the 4 spot. Then bring in a younger post as the 5th post option(Hamson?).
PG: Toliver/Gray
SG: Beard/Williams/Dabovic
SF: Carson/draft pick
PF: Parker/Tolo
C: Ogwumike/Lavender/Hamson |
Tolo is a true center while Lavender is a true PF.. |
I would consider Lavender more of a center than Parker. |
Certainly by body type. It's odd how much better Lavender is at the face-up midrange game than in the low post, though. |
Parker is good in the low post?
Didn't Parker play PF in college with Anosike as the center? Lavender was definitely a center in college. |
Where did I say Parker is good in the low post? My comment was that Lavender has a center's body type but seems better at face-up shots than in the post.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63875
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Posted: 11/21/16 2:26 am ::: |
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CompSci87 wrote: |
Shades wrote: |
CompSci87 wrote: |
Shades wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
toad455 wrote: |
Tolo could replace Gruda at backing up the 4 spot. Then bring in a younger post as the 5th post option(Hamson?).
PG: Toliver/Gray
SG: Beard/Williams/Dabovic
SF: Carson/draft pick
PF: Parker/Tolo
C: Ogwumike/Lavender/Hamson |
Tolo is a true center while Lavender is a true PF.. |
I would consider Lavender more of a center than Parker. |
Certainly by body type. It's odd how much better Lavender is at the face-up midrange game than in the low post, though. |
Parker is good in the low post?
Didn't Parker play PF in college with Anosike as the center? Lavender was definitely a center in college. |
Where did I say Parker is good in the low post? My comment was that Lavender has a center's body type but seems better at face-up shots than in the post. |
If you look back, I was comparing Parker and Lavender. Why make a statement about Lavender's low post game without comparing it to Parker's?
And Michelle, just because Lavender has successfully expanded her game to a face-up and long mid-range game doesn't mean she has forgotten how to be a center. She's been doing it long enough. 2011 draft class. Fours years at OSU plus she started as a center for the Sparks up until this year she was the first post off the bench for either post position.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 8192
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Posted: 11/21/16 8:41 am ::: |
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Lavender is a center with a good outside shot.No way in hell can she guard the PF position.
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WfanFrJmp
Joined: 24 May 2016 Posts: 1427
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Posted: 11/21/16 10:35 am ::: |
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Gotcha, hangtyme24! I would love to have Tolo back but I'm wondering how she is doing. I know she is playing in the WNBL but can't even remember her during the Olympics. Hmmm...ok, she is averaging a dbl-dbl, is 1st in blocks and second in assists on her team! Who knows how it will translate to the W but come on back, Tolo!!
LA posts:
Parker definitely doesn't want to bang around in the post and I get it. I don't think that has ever been her game. From her talking about how her father trained her, she was groomed to be a hybrid player (multiple positions) but as she said, she is 170 soaking wet and I don't think she has ever been the banging type of player. (Heck, Lisa Leslie who was a 5 said when she saw how big and strong the posts were getting (e.g. Syl), she thought about retirement! lol!) Someone said earlier in CP's W career that she handles like a guard and finishes like a post; however, it is not off of banging but finesse. I think that is a decent description of her although if you look at her rookie debut (also known as the "Cappie just got off the plane" game ), truly what couldn't she do?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBfy_8dXk2w
Eight years of year round play, a baby and a number of injuries definitely makes a difference, but she still does her thing!
Lav is definitely more of a 5 but I love her mid range game because she capitalizes off of the holes the defense leaves on the court. When Lav comes in, she makes the defense have to adjust. Lav will bang but that is not where she hurts the other team. Nneka overcomes in the post not necessarily by banging but by athleticism and footwork and it is a thing of beauty! Wauters is a 5 but good grief she couldn't get any time on the court. I've heard some speculation that she may be preparing to transition into coaching. One post we are not discussing is Gruda.
I definitely understand that anyone who has only seen her in the W these last few years would not be impressed but the woman is good and has been for quite a while. She was Euroleague player of the year a few years ago and she played with Parker at UMMC (Russia) all of the time CP was there. She is a 4/5 work horse with an unorthodoxed looking J and has a strong defensive presence. Here are a few clips of her:
France vs. Russia 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPCG-8FOFb8
Fenerbahce 2016:
https://twitter.com/WNBAOverseas/status/794219283467341824
It seems that coaches in the US have struggled to get her integrated into their system (but European coaches know what to do with her). She did come late this season though and Coach does love European players, so hopefully they have plans for her going forward. Right now, she is playing with Fenerbahce (Turkey) with Lav and Quigley (that seems to be the team's big three). In their Euroleague games, she has the highest player efficiency on the squad (24.5) and is averaging 19p, 7.5r, 3.5a to Lav's 11p, 5r, 1.5a. Now, let me say that she is playing 5 more minutes than Lav but I suspect that part of it is that they are more familiar with Gruda's game. I hope they both do well and develop some nice chemistry to bring back to the Sparks!
Last edited by WfanFrJmp on 11/22/16 5:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16464 Location: Holland
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Posted: 11/21/16 4:10 pm ::: |
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zune69 wrote: |
Lavender is a center with a good outside shot.No way in hell can she guard the PF position. |
Parker cant guard either position but she is still a PF.. Im looking at her offensive game
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 8192
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Posted: 11/21/16 4:53 pm ::: |
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Michelle89 wrote: |
zune69 wrote: |
Lavender is a center with a good outside shot.No way in hell can she guard the PF position. |
Parker cant guard either position but she is still a PF.. Im looking at her offensive game |
Candace is a better defender than Lavender when she chooses to be.And just because Lavender can knock down a 20 foot jump shot does not mean she is better suited to play PF on offense.
1.Lavender does not have the handles to create her own shot.
2.Playing Jantel at PF would hurt LA's transition defense.
3.When Jantel is playing the 5 spot,opposing centers have no choice but to step away from the basket and guard Jantel on the perimeter.This creates driving lanes for the guards & forwards.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010 Posts: 16464 Location: Holland
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Posted: 11/22/16 3:42 pm ::: |
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zune69 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
zune69 wrote: |
Lavender is a center with a good outside shot.No way in hell can she guard the PF position. |
Parker cant guard either position but she is still a PF.. Im looking at her offensive game |
Candace is a better defender than Lavender when she chooses to be.And just because Lavender can knock down a 20 foot jump shot does not mean she is better suited to play PF on offense.
1.Lavender does not have the handles to create her own shot.
2.Playing Jantel at PF would hurt LA's transition defense.
3.When Jantel is playing the 5 spot,opposing centers have no choice but to step away from the basket and guard Jantel on the perimeter.This creates driving lanes for the guards & forwards. |
90% of the time Parker chooses to be a liability on defense..
1. Since when does playing PF mean that you have to have handles to create your own shot and the center doesnt? Comparing her handles to Parkers is not really fair..
2. I dont see why playing Jantel at the PF position on offense has something to do with their transistion defense? Ogwumike is guarding the opponents best postplayer when she is on the floor with Lavender anyway and Tolo can run the floor and take over the toughest defensive task when she is on the floor with Lavender. Also we are talking about bench rotations(opponents) here...
3. Playing Lavender at center on offense doesnt guarantee that opposing teams are having their center guarding her. If she plays with Tolo for example then opposing teams will guard Lavender with their PF probably. If she is playing with Parker or Ogwumike then opposing teams will have their weakest post defender on her so i dont really get the point..
_________________ "Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 11/22/16 8:58 pm ::: |
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zune69 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
zune69 wrote: |
Lavender is a center with a good outside shot.No way in hell can she guard the PF position. |
Parker cant guard either position but she is still a PF.. Im looking at her offensive game |
Candace is a better defender than Lavender when she chooses to be.And just because Lavender can knock down a 20 foot jump shot does not mean she is better suited to play PF on offense.
1.Lavender does not have the handles to create her own shot.
2.Playing Jantel at PF would hurt LA's transition defense.
3.When Jantel is playing the 5 spot,opposing centers have no choice but to step away from the basket and guard Jantel on the perimeter.This creates driving lanes for the guards & forwards. |
Candace's 'handle' results in a LOT of TOs. She would be better served to let her guards do the handling. If LA has an issue, it's that all three of their 'best' bigs are really PFs. Nneka has taken it on herself to be the grind it out defender in the post, but she is undersized and I think it would help if they had a Tolo to take some of the pressure off her. I thought Wauters might help in that regard but she appears to be past it.
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67058 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 11/22/16 9:08 pm ::: |
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myrtle wrote: |
zune69 wrote: |
Michelle89 wrote: |
zune69 wrote: |
Lavender is a center with a good outside shot.No way in hell can she guard the PF position. |
Parker cant guard either position but she is still a PF.. Im looking at her offensive game |
Candace is a better defender than Lavender when she chooses to be.And just because Lavender can knock down a 20 foot jump shot does not mean she is better suited to play PF on offense.
1.Lavender does not have the handles to create her own shot.
2.Playing Jantel at PF would hurt LA's transition defense.
3.When Jantel is playing the 5 spot,opposing centers have no choice but to step away from the basket and guard Jantel on the perimeter.This creates driving lanes for the guards & forwards. |
Candace's 'handle' results in a LOT of TOs. She would be better served to let her guards do the handling. If LA has an issue, it's that all three of their 'best' bigs are really PFs. Nneka has taken it on herself to be the grind it out defender in the post, but she is undersized and I think it would help if they had a Tolo to take some of the pressure off her. I thought Wauters might help in that regard but she appears to be past it. |
In fact, Candace Parker had the most turnovers in the league last season
_________________ I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 8192
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Posted: 11/24/16 9:58 am ::: |
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Jantel's in a unique situation.Ogwumike is most productive around the basket area,but is the best option for guarding power forwards.From a defensive standpoint,Ogwumike is a non-traditional center.No other center in the league is capable of guarding sf/pf/c.This affords Jantel the luxury of playing PF on offense without having to guard said position on defense.To be perfectly honest,Ogwumike is not even a center.The sparks are starting two PF's.The first post off the bench is a center(Lavender).Jantel starting at PF for any team in the wnba would be a complete failure.
Could Jantel start alongside Griner ? Boyette ? Paris ? Swords ? Dolson ? Williams ? Larkins ? Fowles ? Appel ?
The answer is a resounding "No".....Jantel would get exposed on the defensive side of the ball.Jantel imo is more of a center than PF.
Parker's turnover total is irrelevant.Players with high usage rates usually rank among the league leaders in turnovers.Despite the high turnover total,Candace still had a better asst/to ratio than Mccoughtry,Taurasi,Sims,Stewart,Diggins,Loyd,etc
Also,the Candace bashing needs to stop.....she just won a championship.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 11/24/16 1:08 pm ::: |
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Mentioning Parker's weakness is not 'bashing' her. I was totally pissed off at USA for not including her in the Olys since she is clearly one of the best players in the world. I resent that implication - mentioning the FACT that she gets lots of TOs, and some of them have nothing to do with usage but just that she tries to be Magic J instead of friggin passing the ball to a guard, is simply pointing out a flaw in her game and has NOTHING TO DO WITH BASHING. She's a great player and just won a championship but that doesn't make her a goddess beyond criticism.
And personally I think Lavender would be just fine as a PF operating with those bigs you mentioned. She's not great defensively as either a PF or a C. There are other PFs in the league who also aren't great. That doesn't mean they'd be better playing C. And she clearly doesn't like the contact required to bash under the basket.
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 8192
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Posted: 11/24/16 3:49 pm ::: |
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myrtle wrote: |
NOTHING TO DO WITH BASHING. |
It is bashing.......MCcoughtry averaged just as many turnovers as Parker but pilight will seldom say anything about it.
Most turnovers 2016
Parker 98 in 34 gms- 2.9 per gm in 30.8 min per gm
Angel 96 in 33 gms- 2.9 per gm in 30.0 min per gm
Infact,Mccoughtry led the league in turnovers 3 consecutive seasons.
2015:
Angel 107
charles 82
2014:
Angel 116
Diggins 97
2013:
Angel 134
Taurasi 116
Mccoughtry is avg 3.0 asst to 2.9 TO for her career while Parker is avg 3.8 asst to 2.5 TO.
myrtle wrote: |
There are other PFs in the league who also aren't great. That doesn't mean they'd be better playing C. |
Unlike most PF's in the league,Jantel has a very recent history of playing the center position.
Last edited by zune69 on 11/24/16 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 8192
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Posted: 11/24/16 7:14 pm ::: |
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Player comparison Asst/to ratio.
Whalen 2.32
Bird 2.08
Moore 1.70
Taurasi 1.53
Parker 1.52
Swoopes 1.52
Cooper 1.44
Catchings 1.43
Smith 1.37
Jackson 0.82
Leslie 0.73
T.Thompson 0.64
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