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FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: 05/24/21 7:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
There are two issues related to Covid-19 virus origin.

The first is whether the origin was a "natural" one, jumping from bats to humans in a wet meat market in Wuhan, China, or whether it was a man-made virus that leaked from a laboratory.

The second issue is why the man-made origin hypothesis has been so aggressively suppressed and censored, especially by U.S. mainstream and social media. I have given my opinions above as to why this suppression is being done -- not because of scientific or historic facts, but simply because of raw politics.

But let's go back to the origin issue and the natural vs. man-made/leak hypotheses. At the outset, common sense seems clear. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes or Saga Norén to have a strong initial suspicion as to which hypothesis makes by far the most Occam's Razor sense.

How likely is it that of all the wet animal markets in China, in all of Asia, in all the world, that the very first human infections just start by chance in Wuhan, China, a thousand miles away from the natural habit of the suspected bat hosts?

. . . versus . . .

The likelihood that SARS-CoV-2 escaped from China's only biosafety level-4 laboratory right next to the first victims in Wuhan, and where that very bat virus is known not only to have been experimented with for years, under China's "batwoman", Shi Zhengli, but also experimented with specifically to make it more highly infectious to humans ("gain of function" experimentation).

The man-made/escape hypothesis is a no-brainer as a circumstantial evidence first assumption, and should be the logical presumption until proved otherwise by scientific or historical facts.

Of course, China will not disclose the facts in its possession, which are likely conclusive of the issue.

But several independent scientists, including at least one Chinese expatriate (Li-Meng Yan), have come out in favor of the man-made/escape hypothesis, as has virologist and former head of the CDC, Robert Redfield, and the former Covid testing czar, Doctor/Admiral Brett Giroir. Of course, these opinions have been widely suppressed, censored or ridiculed for many months, especially those expressed by legitimate scientists who were part of the Trump administration, by politicized media as well as by academics and government bureaucrats who are self-interested, financially entangled or who have other conflicts of interest.

I think the virulent pandemic of politically motivated truth and opinion suppression in the U.S., regarding Covid and a cornucopia of other important subjects, is a more deadly long-term disease than Covid-19 for the survival of our liberal culture and country.


Regarding the origin issue, history is on the side of this being a natural event. First of all, bats are usually the reservoir of the virus (see Marburg, Ebola, Zika, Hendra, etc). Some species of bats can fly hundreds of miles. Second, the virus is transmitted from the reservoir to the vector (e.g. monkeys, mosquitos, civets, horses), who can travel varying distances, particularly if they're being transported by humans, before transmitting the virus to humans. Direct transmission of the disease from bats to humans is not the norm so proximity of the bats to the infected humans is not required.

I'm not saying this is how the virus circulated in Wuhan, but I don't think your premise is valid.

I don't think China is going to disclose much of anything, whether it be because they don't want to release information about their lab, or they're embarrassed at having third-world type of wet markets, or they just have an ingrained culture of secrecy.

I thoroughly agree with your last paragraph.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 05/24/21 8:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Matt Taibbi is on all this today as well. Looks like his Substack page might still be free. Here’s a link. It’s a brilliant analysis as usual but again, it’s focus is on the media. This piece is more about media criticism than it is the source of the virus.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/fact-checking-takes-another-beating



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 05/24/21 10:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:

I think the virulent pandemic of politically motivated truth and opinion suppression in the U.S., regarding Covid and a cornucopia of other important subjects, is a more deadly long-term disease than Covid-19 for the survival of our liberal culture and country.

I thoroughly agree with your last paragraph.


Hmmm. Guide me if I'm mistaken here, but that last paragraph about 'politically motivated truth and opinion suppression in the U.S.' is implying that:
A. It's something novel.
B. We're being fed the various narratives to keep us from The Real Truth.
C. It's really yet another Big Conspiracy Theory.

My opinion:
A. It's been going on for longer than I've been alive.
B. If we KNOW The Real Truth, can it set us free, or just scare the shit out of us in more convincing ways?
C. Just accent on the "Theory" part....conjecture, hypotheses, etc.; they make for interesting parlour discussions, but....what can they accomplish?
I still have no idea where Jimmy Hoffa is, nor if Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Did Marilyn really kill herself? (Or Jeffrey Epstein, for that matter?)



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/24/21 10:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:

I think the virulent pandemic of politically motivated truth and opinion suppression in the U.S., regarding Covid and a cornucopia of other important subjects, is a more deadly long-term disease than Covid-19 for the survival of our liberal culture and country.

I thoroughly agree with your last paragraph.


Hmmm. Guide me if I'm mistaken here, but that last paragraph about 'politically motivated truth and opinion suppression in the U.S.' is implying that:
A. It's something novel.
B. We're being fed the various narratives to keep us from The Real Truth.
C. It's really yet another Big Conspiracy Theory.

My opinion:
A. It's been going on for longer than I've been alive.
B. If we KNOW The Real Truth, can it set us free, or just scare the shit out of us in more convincing ways?
C. Just accent on the "Theory" part....conjecture, hypotheses, etc.; they make for interesting parlour discussions, but....what can they accomplish?
I still have no idea where Jimmy Hoffa is, nor if Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Did Marilyn really kill herself? (Or Jeffrey Epstein, for that matter?)


That reminds me. This is Area 51. Where the fuck is our UFO thread? The aliens are all but probing our asses and we don’t even have a thread!



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
GlennMacGrady



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Location: Heisenberg


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PostPosted: 05/25/21 12:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
There are two issues related to Covid-19 virus origin.

The first is whether the origin was a "natural" one, jumping from bats to humans in a wet meat market in Wuhan, China, or whether it was a man-made virus that leaked from a laboratory.

The second issue is why the man-made origin hypothesis has been so aggressively suppressed and censored, especially by U.S. mainstream and social media. I have given my opinions above as to why this suppression is being done -- not because of scientific or historic facts, but simply because of raw politics.

But let's go back to the origin issue and the natural vs. man-made/leak hypotheses. At the outset, common sense seems clear. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes or Saga Norén to have a strong initial suspicion as to which hypothesis makes by far the most Occam's Razor sense.

How likely is it that of all the wet animal markets in China, in all of Asia, in all the world, that the very first human infections just start by chance in Wuhan, China, a thousand miles away from the natural habit of the suspected bat hosts?

. . . versus . . .

The likelihood that SARS-CoV-2 escaped from China's only biosafety level-4 laboratory right next to the first victims in Wuhan, and where that very bat virus is known not only to have been experimented with for years, under China's "batwoman", Shi Zhengli, but also experimented with specifically to make it more highly infectious to humans ("gain of function" experimentation).

The man-made/escape hypothesis is a no-brainer as a circumstantial evidence first assumption, and should be the logical presumption until proved otherwise by scientific or historical facts.

Of course, China will not disclose the facts in its possession, which are likely conclusive of the issue.

But several independent scientists, including at least one Chinese expatriate (Li-Meng Yan), have come out in favor of the man-made/escape hypothesis, as has virologist and former head of the CDC, Robert Redfield, and the former Covid testing czar, Doctor/Admiral Brett Giroir. Of course, these opinions have been widely suppressed, censored or ridiculed for many months, especially those expressed by legitimate scientists who were part of the Trump administration, by politicized media as well as by academics and government bureaucrats who are self-interested, financially entangled or who have other conflicts of interest.

I think the virulent pandemic of politically motivated truth and opinion suppression in the U.S., regarding Covid and a cornucopia of other important subjects, is a more deadly long-term disease than Covid-19 for the survival of our liberal culture and country.


Regarding the origin issue, history is on the side of this being a natural event. First of all, bats are usually the reservoir of the virus (see Marburg, Ebola, Zika, Hendra, etc). Some species of bats can fly hundreds of miles. Second, the virus is transmitted from the reservoir to the vector (e.g. monkeys, mosquitos, civets, horses), who can travel varying distances, particularly if they're being transported by humans, before transmitting the virus to humans. Direct transmission of the disease from bats to humans is not the norm so proximity of the bats to the infected humans is not required.

I'm not saying this is how the virus circulated in Wuhan, but I don't think your premise is valid.


Thank you for clarifying the difference between reservoir animals and vector animals, and surely over long history viruses have been transmitted to humans more often from vector animals than leaks from BSL-4 laboratories (which didn't even exist for most of history). But the circumstantial evidence in this case still overwhelmingly points to a lab leak.

For one thing, experts have been been searching for potential SARS-CoV-2 vector animals for 18 months and have never yet found one. Every animal sold in the Wuhan wet market, for example, has tested negative for the virus. Even the Wuhan lab "batwoman", who would never admit to a leak in her lab,

Quote:
"never expected this kind of thing to happen in Wuhan." She'd have expected it to happen in South China, where these viruses are naturally found.


That is, the vector animals would naturally have started infecting humans near the reservoir of horseshoe bats 1,000 miles from Wuhan, and then radiated the infection in a traceable pattern away from that epicenter. An infection springing up full blown in Wuhan, and nowhere else, contradicts the usual zoonotic vector animal progression. You can read this analysis here:

Humans, Not Animals, Likely Took the COVID Virus to Wuhan, Contrary to China's Claims

Moreover, the calculated stonewalling by China on the origin of the virus and the muzzling of the Wuhan doctors is itself strong circumstantial evidence that they are hiding evidence of a lab leak. If China had evidence of vector transmission jumping to humans by vector animals outside of the Wuhan lab they would trumpet it. But there is only silence from China, following initial outright lies about the human contagiousness of the virus to the gullible and conflicted WHO.

As to the issue of the gullible press believing Chinese origin propaganda and failing to report or even investigate lab leak evidence impartially -- or, worse yet, mocking such evidence -- here are two recent exposés in addition to the ones recently in the NYT and WSJ:

-- How the Liberal Media Dismissed the Lab-Leak Theory and Smeared Its Supporters

Quote:
Many mainstream journalists, though not all, dismissed the lab-leak hypothesis out of hand as a conspiracy theory. In part, they were deceived by some especially voluble public-health experts. In part, they simply took Donald Trump’s bait, answering the former president’s dissembling with false certainty of their own.


-- Retired NYT science editor slams the mainstream media for ignoring evidence that COVID leaked from a Wuhan lab and falling for 'sustained Chinese propaganda' instead of doing their own research

Quote:
A retired [30-year] New York Times science editor has slammed the mainstream media for ignoring the possibility that coronavirus leaked from a laboratory in Wuhan and accused journalists of falling for 'Chinese propaganda' instead of doing their own research.
tfan



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PostPosted: 05/26/21 3:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:


tfan wrote:
THIS WAY has generic components that don't require identical situations: [virus brought into lab and infected worker, virus made more dangerous to humans in lab and infected worker, or virus brought into market via wild animal]. If Laos, Peru or Burundi island have labs performing "gain of function" work on viruses to make them more effective in infecting humans, it would be nice to know if that is how this one started so the United Nations/WHO could address labs purposely making viruses more harmful to humans. And ditto even if they just are going out and getting viruses off of bats and other animals and bringing them back to their Laotian, Peruvian and Burundian labs to study. It would be helpful for the world to know if China released SARS-Cov-2 by getting if off a bat hundreds of miles away and then infecting a lab worker in a city of 14 million. The United Nations/WHO would have a good case to outlaw "gain of function" research, or make "virology labs" be way outside population centers. And they would have a good case to make "virology labs" subject to international control and inspection.

And if they have wild animal markets in Laos, Peru or Burundi, it would also be helpful for the world to know that a global pandemic started from live/dead wild animals being sold at a city market. The United Nations could at that point have a good case to ban wild animal markets.


This is exactly the point. Any and all of those routes are possible sources for an EID. Pinpointing the one in this case and ignoring the others is absolutely pointless as well as dangerous. We need to be prepared for ALL of them.


There is prevention, and there is preparedness. I see those as two different issues. Chances of transmission via various routes can be reduced, if not prevented, particularly the "lab leak" route. Knowing which way it came would help us get off our duff with regards to working on prevention, at least for that route. For instance, if we knew for sure it came from the lab we would be more inclined to outlaw trying to make viruses lethal to humans because it may someday have non-warfare value (I haven't heard of any realized benefits of "gain of function" work). And if that is too popular among lab-grant guys to kill, then at least make everyone working on viruses be in spacesuits. Whether the scientists like it or not

The preparedness with regard to "after the virus is going" is the same regardless of the route. And yet we were prepared for nothing. Unbelievably, the United States and UK were judged to be the two best countries in October 2019 with regard to preparedness for a pandemic. And they, along with the rest of Europe were completely impotent.

A neighbor commented the other day that "next time we will be prepared". But I doubt it. I think the "infectious disease expert poseurs" still believe that you "can't ban travel". So the next pandemic will also get a good spread. And that is both internationally and intra-nationally. We won't have a plan in place for everything to shut down and shut downs will again be late. And PPE equipment will again be in short supply, although not as bad.

Quote:
The WHO now has nearly zero power to investigate, outlaw, or otherwise effect any changes unless they are invited in by a sovereign nation. The UN can't "ban" wild animal markets (removing food sources from the hungry is truly a first world solution).


I had been saying "wild life market" instead of wet market because that is what is most concerning, and should have stuck with it. Apparently wet market only refers to a market where ice is used to keep meat/fish/poultry cold while it is for sale and the melting ice gets the floor wet. I doubt that there is any country that requires wild animals to survive - there are just too many people everywhere. Africa for example, is estimated to have 1.37 billion people. It seems it would need to be a small and isolated population group that would currently require eating wild animals to survive, and living like that would probably not even have markets. Absent a small population, I don't see how the animals wouldn't be eaten to extinction. So keep "wet markets" and ban the sale of wild animals. That still doesn't stop serious flu we have seen from pigs and chickens but there are probably things that can be done to reduce that as well.

Quote:
Trying to get the countries with either susceptible native animal populations or level-4 labs on board to agree to strengthen the WHO is not going to be made any easier by accusing China now and wasting time and resources.


I don't see it taking a lot of time and resources to investigate China as far as it been done by a global community of countries. At least not an amount that would stop other activity in trying to deal with a future pandemic. I don't know that the same people would be involved in planning "pandemic actions" as would be involved in looking for clues in a lab or out in nature. But China would need to allow an investigation. We should punish them for not allowing it to this point fire all the WHO personnel who allowed China to stop an investigation while simultaneously praising China.

Quote:
The blame game is not helpful.


If China - or anyone else - has a lab where they manipulate viruses to become lethal to humans, and they may even do that without wearing "space suits" I think it would be helpful to place blame on that practice if it caused a global pandemic. I think the last thing we want is what happened the last year - scientists who participate in "making viruses lethal to humans" trying to shut down any blame on the Wuhan virology lab because of their own self-interest in virus shenanigans in their own labs or their funding of the Wuhan lab. I don't think a non-blame game is helpful in this case.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 05/26/21 7:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Viral "gain of function" studies in viruses are very important in the development of new pharmaceuticals, especially vaccines. Adenoviruses have been altered to make them more effective in delivering antigens to human cells and then to stimulate an immune response, and they are being used currently to develop vaccines for everything from HIV to TB to Ebola. Modified adenoviruses were also used to make the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine for COVID. Besides vaccines, they're apparently used to deliver chemotherapy to cancer cells although I am not familiar with any of the specifics. Banning GoF work would be disastrous.

Workers in BioSafety Level-4 (BSL-4) labs, where the most dangerous viruses are studied, have not only "space suits" but also airlocks, complicated airflow and air filtration systems, and decontamination protocols. However, shit happens.

Wildlife markets exist throughout Africa and SE Asia and are used as a food resource by millions of people, not just "a small and isolated population group".


DivaORcat16



Joined: 13 May 2020
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PostPosted: 05/26/21 9:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not a scientist, and I don't play one on board forums.

BUT,I have questioned the whole story since the beginning of this pandemic.

I chose to participate in a study last year thinking I was "doing my part" to help any way I could. So, I donated blood for the NIH's study (which I posted about preliminary results in another thread) into undetected cases of the virus. Now it's coming out that the NIH granted $600,000 in US taxpayer money to THIS LAB through a secondary group for these studies. Fauci's division of the NIH. And, he has said since the beginning said that it was very unlikely that this was a lab leak. What bullshit. He's a total piece of work. He's now saying it could have happened. I can honestly say there has always been something about him that I had my doubts about.

Now I'm questioning what role my blood donation played in their research. Were they using this "study" as cover? To learn how far and fast this virus spread?
And the way people on social media were banned from questioning any of this because of "Trump". Grow a pair. Suck-it up buttercup. People need to open their eyes and start thinking for themselves again. Me included.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 05/26/21 11:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

DivaORcat16 wrote:
Fauci's division of the NIH. And, he has said since the beginning said that it was very unlikely that this was a lab leak. What bullshit. He's a total piece of work. He's now saying it could have happened. I can honestly say there has always been something about him that I had my doubts about.


Dr. Fauci (and most decent scientists in just about any field) must be comprehended with great caution. Many -- though not so much Tony -- use complex terminology and explain things in sweeping concepts that the average American can't follow easily.

Never mind that he (and any GOOD scientist) will couch their theories in words like "Possible" or "probable", etc. They can only go on what their trusted colleagues reveal to them. And ALL SCIENCE, especially GOOD science, sees the rise and fall of various theories and hypotheses.

This dynamic lends itself to Joe Average thinking things like "He's a total piece of work", as a pejorative: in reality, he IS Quite a piece of work -- a national treasure. He has a master mind capable of insights to all the nuance and variables in this work, AND he has the capabilities to present these state-of-the-art findings in ways that most people can comprehend. But he usually frames things with phrases like, "The current thinking...." as he doesn't wanna play God (you know, like the dork that ran around telling people bleach might be a cure...? Rolling Eyes )

Don't pin all your hopes on ONE single scientist having every infallible answer; typically the BEST information comes from groups of scientists who collaborate, enable and assist each other to find the best empirical data.



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Last edited by Howee on 05/27/21 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total
DivaORcat16



Joined: 13 May 2020
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PostPosted: 05/27/21 12:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So, Howee, explain to this average JANE (without talking down to someone) how he is still relevant when he has been wrong on SO many things. Masks, the possibility of the origin, how many masks to wear, indoor/outdoor spread, schools, distancing, all the science stuff. He hasn't given anyone I know any confidence in his answers. Trump at least had an excuse, no science background.

In fact, Fauci instilled fear when it wasn't necessary or good for the country. I think he's on the level of most politicians. Tell the small people whatever it takes to keep them in line and look important.

National treasure, my ass. Overpaid government employee. His best line is "follow the science" which he has not done. .
But please explain it in a way this lowly uneducated peon can underdstand. Not


pilight



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PostPosted: 05/27/21 8:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nobody credible thinks the virus was man-made. Here's a study from early on in the pandemic:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

Quote:
Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/27/21 11:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

DivaORcat16 wrote:
So, Howee, explain to this average JANE (without talking down to someone) how he is still relevant when he has been wrong on SO many things. Masks, the possibility of the origin, how many masks to wear, indoor/outdoor spread, schools, distancing, all the science stuff. He hasn't given anyone I know any confidence in his answers. Trump at least had an excuse, no science background.

In fact, Fauci instilled fear when it wasn't necessary or good for the country. I think he's on the level of most politicians. Tell the small people whatever it takes to keep them in line and look important.

National treasure, my ass. Overpaid government employee. His best line is "follow the science" which he has not done. .
But please explain it in a way this lowly uneducated peon can underdstand. Not


“News companies using the misguided notion that the news is an exact science to promote the worse misconception that science is an exact science.” -Matt Taibbi



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/27/21 2:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Facebook will no longer remove posts that suggest the coronavirus was man made. And I have to say, call me an idiot, but until recently I had NO IDEA that Facebook or Twitter was removing user comments or tweets that supported or suggested the possibility of a lab leak. And I guess I never really gave it that much thought even in the last few weeks when I first heard about it as the possibility of a lab leak has become more openly discussed. But seeing an actual statement by Facebook that admits to that being their policy prior to this moment makes it very real for me and I have to say… WHAT THE FUCK?

They were actually doing this? While millions were dying and millions more had their lives all but destroyed free people were not able to exchange their thoughts and concerns about how this might have come to pass? I find that to be incredibly problematic. Wow. And now it turns out that it could have actually happened the very way that free people may have wanted to explore conversationally on social media but would have and did find themselves either censored or even banned from the platforms?

How in the fuck did we end up with this world we’re living in? After the 20th century’s horrors, the warnings of Orwell and countless others? The Hunger Games? WHAT THE FUCK?!?



_________________
Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 05/27/21 4:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Facebook will no longer remove posts that suggest the coronavirus was man made. And I have to say, call me an idiot, but until recently I had NO IDEA that Facebook or Twitter was removing user comments or tweets that supported or suggested the possibility of a lab leak. And I guess I never really gave it that much thought even in the last few weeks when I first heard about it as the possibility of a lab leak has become more openly discussed. But seeing an actual statement by Facebook that admits to that being their policy prior to this moment makes it very real for me and I have to say… WHAT THE FUCK?

They were actually doing this? While millions were dying and millions more had their lives all but destroyed free people were not able to exchange their thoughts and concerns about how this might have come to pass? I find that to be incredibly problematic. Wow. And now it turns out that it could have actually happened the very way that free people may have wanted to explore conversationally on social media but would have and did find themselves either censored or even banned from the platforms?

How in the fuck did we end up with this world we’re living in? After the 20th century’s horrors, the warnings of Orwell and countless others? The Hunger Games? WHAT THE FUCK?!?


They also removed posts about other COVID-related issues, like advice to drink Clorox. Were they wrong to do that? Where is the line and who decides?


Howee



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PostPosted: 05/27/21 4:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

DivaORcat16 wrote:
So, Howee, explain to this average JANE (without talking down to someone) how he is still relevant when he has been wrong on SO many things.


Pretty simple, really.

A. As quoted by jammer, from Matt Taibi (or me too, many times here) : Science is NOT an exact science. Real science, medical and otherwise, is a constant evaluation of data and testing of hypotheses. Even more difficult is the situation that Covid-19 presented: it was similar yet so VERY different from other known pathogens.

When any nation is besieged by a global pandemic, *we* want answers: *we* demand them. So, the scientists try their best; they collaborate and give the best available advice AT THE MOMENT, cuz things change. And if you've listened closely to Fauci and others, they frequently qualified their language in explaining the 'latest' information. He CERTAINLY was not mistaken in just how long and fiercely these 'waves' were going to play out.

It's easy for us commoners to conflate high-profile scientists with politicians: we're always glad to nail 'em when they're proven wrong. But -- think hard here -- there's a universe of difference between finding out that Fauci's facts were 'off' 3 months after he presented them, and figuring out that Trump's assertions that bleach could fix it, and it might all be over by April, and it'll end soon, etc. were all blatant bullshit. One was grasping at straws for political footage, the other was trying to nail down the truth, AND had no problems whatsoever owning up to his mistakes as time provided new data.

B. I've had the pleasure of attending seminars by Dr. Fauci at the NIH, in the 1990s. I got to speak and meet with him during this time, when our country was being ravaged by HIV/AIDS. He was at the forefront of that battle, and trust me, there were TONS of misinformation and misguided people. He was never arrogant about his knowledge and led a remarkable staff of dedicated scientists. I will ALWAYS view him as a National Treasure.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/27/21 6:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Facebook will no longer remove posts that suggest the coronavirus was man made. And I have to say, call me an idiot, but until recently I had NO IDEA that Facebook or Twitter was removing user comments or tweets that supported or suggested the possibility of a lab leak. And I guess I never really gave it that much thought even in the last few weeks when I first heard about it as the possibility of a lab leak has become more openly discussed. But seeing an actual statement by Facebook that admits to that being their policy prior to this moment makes it very real for me and I have to say… WHAT THE FUCK?

They were actually doing this? While millions were dying and millions more had their lives all but destroyed free people were not able to exchange their thoughts and concerns about how this might have come to pass? I find that to be incredibly problematic. Wow. And now it turns out that it could have actually happened the very way that free people may have wanted to explore conversationally on social media but would have and did find themselves either censored or even banned from the platforms?

How in the fuck did we end up with this world we’re living in? After the 20th century’s horrors, the warnings of Orwell and countless others? The Hunger Games? WHAT THE FUCK?!?


They also removed posts about other COVID-related issues, like advice to drink Clorox. Were they wrong to do that? Where is the line and who decides?


If there was truly actual advice to drink Clorox on Facebook I would think it was very rare, was quickly called out as insanity by others in those threads and if Facebook was made aware of such posts then yes they could have pulled that content off their platform.

To equate that with people discussing the potential source of the virus that was threatening all of our lives and to have that content taken down because it may not at that time have been seen as the correct answer to what was sure to be modern history’s most important questions, and now appearing to be quite the possibly right answer to the question, all simply because the wrong guy and political party was suggesting it, and because of the context of the era we’re living in that viewed suggesting a lab leak as racist content that must be quickly removed from any large corporation’s property, real or virtual, is a complete and absolute dystopian nightmare for free speech and the freedom to share ideas and thoughts with others.

And if the lab leak hypothesis turns out to be seen as the source of the virus… how can we ever trust anyone again? They are not looking out for our best interests. They are now trying to control our thoughts and our ability to share those thoughts with others.

You don’t have to look at this as problematic. If everyone looked at it as problematic it wouldn’t be happening. On the contrary, social media pressures from politically motivated users are the absolute confirmed source of the virus that demands the removal of any content that violates the sensibilities of those social media mobs. That’s why this happened in the first place.



_________________
Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 2485



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PostPosted: 05/27/21 6:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Facebook will no longer remove posts that suggest the coronavirus was man made. And I have to say, call me an idiot, but until recently I had NO IDEA that Facebook or Twitter was removing user comments or tweets that supported or suggested the possibility of a lab leak. And I guess I never really gave it that much thought even in the last few weeks when I first heard about it as the possibility of a lab leak has become more openly discussed. But seeing an actual statement by Facebook that admits to that being their policy prior to this moment makes it very real for me and I have to say… WHAT THE FUCK?

They were actually doing this? While millions were dying and millions more had their lives all but destroyed free people were not able to exchange their thoughts and concerns about how this might have come to pass? I find that to be incredibly problematic. Wow. And now it turns out that it could have actually happened the very way that free people may have wanted to explore conversationally on social media but would have and did find themselves either censored or even banned from the platforms?

How in the fuck did we end up with this world we’re living in? After the 20th century’s horrors, the warnings of Orwell and countless others? The Hunger Games? WHAT THE FUCK?!?


They also removed posts about other COVID-related issues, like advice to drink Clorox. Were they wrong to do that? Where is the line and who decides?


If there was truly actual advice to drink Clorox on Facebook I would think it was very rare, was quickly called out as insanity by others in those threads and if Facebook was made aware of such posts then yes they could have pulled that content off their platform.

To equate that with people discussing the potential source of the virus that was threatening all of our lives and to have that content taken down because it may not at that time have been seen as the correct answer to what was sure to be modern history’s most important questions, and now appearing to be quite the possibly right answer to the question, all simply because the wrong guy and political party was suggesting it, and because of the context of the era we’re living in that viewed suggesting a lab leak as racist content that must be quickly removed from any large corporation’s property, real or virtual, is a complete and absolute dystopian nightmare for free speech and the freedom to share ideas and thoughts with others.

And if the lab leak hypothesis turns out to be seen as the source of the virus… how can we ever trust anyone again? They are not looking out for our best interests. They are now trying to control our thoughts and our ability to share those thoughts with others.

You don’t have to look at this as problematic. If everyone looked at it as problematic it wouldn’t be happening. On the contrary, social media pressures from politically motivated users are the absolute confirmed source of the virus that demands the removal of any content that violates the sensibilities of those social media mobs. That’s why this happened in the first place.


That^ is the very definition of social media platforms like FB and Twitter.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 13623
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 05/27/21 7:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Facebook will no longer remove posts that suggest the coronavirus was man made. And I have to say, call me an idiot, but until recently I had NO IDEA that Facebook or Twitter was removing user comments or tweets that supported or suggested the possibility of a lab leak. And I guess I never really gave it that much thought even in the last few weeks when I first heard about it as the possibility of a lab leak has become more openly discussed. But seeing an actual statement by Facebook that admits to that being their policy prior to this moment makes it very real for me and I have to say… WHAT THE FUCK?

They were actually doing this? While millions were dying and millions more had their lives all but destroyed free people were not able to exchange their thoughts and concerns about how this might have come to pass? I find that to be incredibly problematic. Wow. And now it turns out that it could have actually happened the very way that free people may have wanted to explore conversationally on social media but would have and did find themselves either censored or even banned from the platforms?

How in the fuck did we end up with this world we’re living in? After the 20th century’s horrors, the warnings of Orwell and countless others? The Hunger Games? WHAT THE FUCK?!?


They also removed posts about other COVID-related issues, like advice to drink Clorox. Were they wrong to do that? Where is the line and who decides?


If there was truly actual advice to drink Clorox on Facebook I would think it was very rare, was quickly called out as insanity by others in those threads and if Facebook was made aware of such posts then yes they could have pulled that content off their platform.

To equate that with people discussing the potential source of the virus that was threatening all of our lives and to have that content taken down because it may not at that time have been seen as the correct answer to what was sure to be modern history’s most important questions, and now appearing to be quite the possibly right answer to the question, all simply because the wrong guy and political party was suggesting it, and because of the context of the era we’re living in that viewed suggesting a lab leak as racist content that must be quickly removed from any large corporation’s property, real or virtual, is a complete and absolute dystopian nightmare for free speech and the freedom to share ideas and thoughts with others.

And if the lab leak hypothesis turns out to be seen as the source of the virus… how can we ever trust anyone again? They are not looking out for our best interests. They are now trying to control our thoughts and our ability to share those thoughts with others.

You don’t have to look at this as problematic. If everyone looked at it as problematic it wouldn’t be happening. On the contrary, social media pressures from politically motivated users are the absolute confirmed source of the virus that demands the removal of any content that violates the sensibilities of those social media mobs. That’s why this happened in the first place.


That^ is the very definition of social media platforms like FB and Twitter.


And THAT ^ is precisely why I hope to never partake of either. Cool



_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 6887
Location: Heisenberg


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PostPosted: 05/27/21 9:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Facebook will no longer remove posts that suggest the coronavirus was man made. And I have to say, call me an idiot, but until recently I had NO IDEA that Facebook or Twitter was removing user comments or tweets that supported or suggested the possibility of a lab leak. And I guess I never really gave it that much thought even in the last few weeks when I first heard about it as the possibility of a lab leak has become more openly discussed. But seeing an actual statement by Facebook that admits to that being their policy prior to this moment makes it very real for me and I have to say… WHAT THE FUCK?

They were actually doing this? While millions were dying and millions more had their lives all but destroyed free people were not able to exchange their thoughts and concerns about how this might have come to pass? I find that to be incredibly problematic. Wow. And now it turns out that it could have actually happened the very way that free people may have wanted to explore conversationally on social media but would have and did find themselves either censored or even banned from the platforms?

How in the fuck did we end up with this world we’re living in? After the 20th century’s horrors, the warnings of Orwell and countless others? The Hunger Games? WHAT THE FUCK?!?


They also removed posts about other COVID-related issues, like advice to drink Clorox. Were they wrong to do that? Where is the line and who decides?


If there was truly actual advice to drink Clorox on Facebook I would think it was very rare, was quickly called out as insanity by others in those threads and if Facebook was made aware of such posts then yes they could have pulled that content off their platform.

To equate that with people discussing the potential source of the virus that was threatening all of our lives and to have that content taken down because it may not at that time have been seen as the correct answer to what was sure to be modern history’s most important questions, and now appearing to be quite the possibly right answer to the question, all simply because the wrong guy and political party was suggesting it, and because of the context of the era we’re living in that viewed suggesting a lab leak as racist content that must be quickly removed from any large corporation’s property, real or virtual, is a complete and absolute dystopian nightmare for free speech and the freedom to share ideas and thoughts with others.

And if the lab leak hypothesis turns out to be seen as the source of the virus… how can we ever trust anyone again? They are not looking out for our best interests. They are now trying to control our thoughts and our ability to share those thoughts with others.

You don’t have to look at this as problematic. If everyone looked at it as problematic it wouldn’t be happening. On the contrary, social media pressures from politically motivated users are the absolute confirmed source of the virus that demands the removal of any content that violates the sensibilities of those social media mobs. That’s why this happened in the first place.


That^ is the very definition of social media platforms like FB and Twitter.


And THAT ^ is precisely why I hope to never partake of either. 8)


Wow -- Jammer, Frozen, Howee and I agree on something.

But it's not just social media that is censoring and cancelling liberal and free speech culture; it's academia, private industry, TV and government. They have all taken political correctness, which is bad enough, to fascistic and totalitarian levels. People lose their jobs for saying there are two biological sexes. They have their restaurants and homes boycotted or damaged for revealing they voted for Donald Trump. Conservative speakers are boycotted by student and organized non-student mobs on college campuses, and academic administrations cave to the pressure instead of standing up for free speech and disciplining the students. I could go on and on, but won't.

As to Anthony Fauci, the sooner he disappears from his daily appearances on TV and before Congress, the less nervous this country will become. That's because, like abortion and Trump, he has become a politically divisive lightning rod.

Fauci is the consummate Washington political animal bureaucrat, who joined the NIAID right after his medical residency in 1968 and is still there 53 years later. He's never been a practicing doctor or research scientist, even though he gets a lot of last-listed co-authorships on papers written by employees or colleagues. Rather, for the past 37 years as the head of NIAID, he is the high level manager of a $6 billion dollar budget and probably more than 1,000 employees and contractors. In fact, Fauci has been so long in the DC swamp that he's the HIGHEST PAID of all four million employees in the federal government.

In fairness, Fauci's sole job is necessarily tunnel-visioned -- namely, to give conservative advice on minimizing infectious diseases, and not to factor in harms to the economy, business, mental health or education, or effects on non-infectious diseases. It's the job of executive branch politicians to weigh all these competing factors in Covid and other emergencies. But the executive branches have so defaulted and deferred to Fauci and left so much public communication to him, that his tunnel vision pronouncements -- so often contradictory because there is no empirical science behind most of them -- have become profoundly divisive political footballs.
FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 2485



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PostPosted: 05/27/21 10:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Howee wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Facebook will no longer remove posts that suggest the coronavirus was man made. And I have to say, call me an idiot, but until recently I had NO IDEA that Facebook or Twitter was removing user comments or tweets that supported or suggested the possibility of a lab leak. And I guess I never really gave it that much thought even in the last few weeks when I first heard about it as the possibility of a lab leak has become more openly discussed. But seeing an actual statement by Facebook that admits to that being their policy prior to this moment makes it very real for me and I have to say… WHAT THE FUCK?

They were actually doing this? While millions were dying and millions more had their lives all but destroyed free people were not able to exchange their thoughts and concerns about how this might have come to pass? I find that to be incredibly problematic. Wow. And now it turns out that it could have actually happened the very way that free people may have wanted to explore conversationally on social media but would have and did find themselves either censored or even banned from the platforms?

How in the fuck did we end up with this world we’re living in? After the 20th century’s horrors, the warnings of Orwell and countless others? The Hunger Games? WHAT THE FUCK?!?


They also removed posts about other COVID-related issues, like advice to drink Clorox. Were they wrong to do that? Where is the line and who decides?


If there was truly actual advice to drink Clorox on Facebook I would think it was very rare, was quickly called out as insanity by others in those threads and if Facebook was made aware of such posts then yes they could have pulled that content off their platform.

To equate that with people discussing the potential source of the virus that was threatening all of our lives and to have that content taken down because it may not at that time have been seen as the correct answer to what was sure to be modern history’s most important questions, and now appearing to be quite the possibly right answer to the question, all simply because the wrong guy and political party was suggesting it, and because of the context of the era we’re living in that viewed suggesting a lab leak as racist content that must be quickly removed from any large corporation’s property, real or virtual, is a complete and absolute dystopian nightmare for free speech and the freedom to share ideas and thoughts with others.

And if the lab leak hypothesis turns out to be seen as the source of the virus… how can we ever trust anyone again? They are not looking out for our best interests. They are now trying to control our thoughts and our ability to share those thoughts with others.

You don’t have to look at this as problematic. If everyone looked at it as problematic it wouldn’t be happening. On the contrary, social media pressures from politically motivated users are the absolute confirmed source of the virus that demands the removal of any content that violates the sensibilities of those social media mobs. That’s why this happened in the first place.


That^ is the very definition of social media platforms like FB and Twitter.


And THAT ^ is precisely why I hope to never partake of either. Cool


Wow -- Jammer, Frozen, Howee and I agree on something.

But it's not just social media that is censoring and cancelling liberal and free speech culture; it's academia, private industry, TV and government. They have all taken political correctness, which is bad enough, to fascistic and totalitarian levels. People lose their jobs for saying there are two biological sexes. They have their restaurants and homes boycotted or damaged for revealing they voted for Donald Trump. Conservative speakers are boycotted by student and organized non-student mobs on college campuses, and academic administrations cave to the pressure instead of standing up for free speech and disciplining the students. I could go on and on, but won't.

As to Anthony Fauci, the sooner he disappears from his daily appearances on TV and before Congress, the less nervous this country will become. That's because, like abortion and Trump, he has become a politically divisive lightning rod.

Fauci is the consummate Washington political animal bureaucrat, who joined the NIAID right after his medical residency in 1968 and is still there 53 years later. He's never been a practicing doctor or research scientist, even though he gets a lot of last-listed co-authorships on papers written by employees or colleagues. Rather, for the past 37 years as the head of NIAID, he is the high level manager of a $6 billion dollar budget and probably more than 1,000 employees and contractors. In fact, Fauci has been so long in the DC swamp that he's the HIGHEST PAID of all four million employees in the federal government.

In fairness, Fauci's sole job is necessarily tunnel-visioned -- namely, to give conservative advice on minimizing infectious diseases, and not to factor in harms to the economy, business, mental health or education, or effects on non-infectious diseases. It's the job of executive branch politicians to weigh all these competing factors in Covid and other emergencies. But the executive branches have so defaulted and deferred to Fauci and left so much public communication to him, that his tunnel vision pronouncements -- so often contradictory because there is no empirical science behind most of them -- have become profoundly divisive political footballs.


Well, Glenn, that was a short-lived period of agreement for us. Trump's administration spent most of its time undermining and silencing Fauci. And I find that criticizing social media and the PC crowd's censoring of discussion and free speech, then saying we need to silence Fauci's voice to be rather incongruous.


FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 2485



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PostPosted: 05/27/21 10:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Do I win a prize if I find something we can ALL agree on, namely that the perps of this scam should be locked up?


Quote:
Several European influencers say they have been offered money to use their social media presence to discourage their millions of followers from receiving the Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine by a suspicious agency that French officials reportedly think could be linked to Russia....

Taking to Twitter earlier this week, French YouTuber Léo Grasset — also known as DirtyBiology — said he had received a “strange” proposal and attached screenshots of the request, which asked him to falsely tell followers that “the mainstream media ignores” the fact that the vaccine has been linked to a high death toll. The messages informed Grasset that the agency had a “colossal budget” and that if he wanted to work with the company, he would have to hide sponsorship details from viewers.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/05/26/influencers-offered-money-pfizer-discredit-russia/


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 13623
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 05/28/21 12:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Fauci is the consummate Washington political animal bureaucrat, who joined the NIAID right after his medical residency in 1968 and is still there 53 years later. He's never been a practicing doctor or research scientist, even though he gets a lot of last-listed co-authorships on papers written by employees or colleagues.

Tsk, tsk. You undermine your (considerable) efforts to make a point when you lie about Anthony Fauci. He has, indeed, worked as a research doctor
Quote:
Fauci was one of the leading researchers during the AIDS epidemic in the early 1980s. In 1981, he heard of the virus, and he and his team of researchers began looking for a vaccine or treatment for this novel virus, though they would meet a number of obstacles. In October 1988, protesters came to the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Fauci, who had become the institute's director in 1984, bore the brunt of the anger from the LGBTQ community, who were largely ignored by the government.



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PickledGinger



Joined: 04 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: 05/28/21 1:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Fauci, who had become the institute's director in 1984, bore the brunt of the anger from the LGBTQ community, who were largely ignored by the government.


Thanks, Reagan!



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 62965
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 05/28/21 1:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PickledGinger wrote:
Howee wrote:
Fauci, who had become the institute's director in 1984, bore the brunt of the anger from the LGBTQ community, who were largely ignored by the government.


Thanks, Reagan!


Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate and also did next to nothing



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PickledGinger



Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 1001



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PostPosted: 05/28/21 2:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
PickledGinger wrote:
Howee wrote:
Fauci, who had become the institute's director in 1984, bore the brunt of the anger from the LGBTQ community, who were largely ignored by the government.


Thanks, Reagan!


Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate and also did next to nothing


Yeah, it was meant to be a mockery of "thanks, Obama"...you know like blaming a president for the failings of the entire governtment. But, also kind of not...



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"Life is chaos. Success is completely arbitrary. Confidence is everything." - Gina Linetti
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