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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 04/22/21 3:29 pm    ::: I just want to say... Reply Reply with quote

That I will NEVER in my long life address or refer to a PhD who is not an MD, a shrink, an eye-doctor, or even a lowly motherfucking dentist as DOCTOR.

I’m a Californian for Christ’s sake. We are FREE of your bullshit!



*If we’ve already had this discussion, forgive me. Embarassed



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
justintyme



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PostPosted: 04/22/21 5:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I mean the term was used for people of the highest degree of learning long before MDs. In fact, the usage in the medical field came out of the other usage. "Doctors of Medicine" were meant to designate that those individuals were of the highest levels of learning in the field of medicine.

That being said, I couldn't care less if people call me "Doctor" or not. And while some professors demand it of their students, I pretty much roll my eyes at them. But it is my title, and in any formal setting or writing it is the correct form of address.

Here is the etymology of the word: https://www.etymonline.com/word/doctor



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Howee



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PostPosted: 04/22/21 8:46 pm    ::: Re: I just want to say... Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
That I will NEVER in my long life address or refer to a PhD who is not an MD, a shrink, an eye-doctor, or even a lowly motherfucking dentist as DOCTOR.


I'll go out on a limb here and s'pose you've never actually gone through blood, sweat 'n tears of acquiring a PhD. Laughing

In my memory, the only "doctor" who abused that nomenclature was the wretched Dr. Laura.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 04/23/21 1:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

“I'll go out on a limb here and s'pose you've never actually gone through blood, sweat 'n tears of acquiring a PhD. Laughing”

You are correct, sir.

What we need here are some universal rules that everyone can agree with the jammer on.

Let me begin by amending my first thought above:

I will never address or refer to any PhD who is not an MD, MY shrink (And I hope to have one someday if it’s not too late) MY eye-doctor, or MY lowly POS motherfucking dentist as DOCTOR.

Back to the rules.

Okay first I need a nap. But I do my best work when I’m sleeping so stay tuned.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
tfan



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PostPosted: 04/27/21 7:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Is this from Dr Jill Biden?

Seems like they could come up with a different term besides doctor to reflect a PhD in a non-medical field.

I worked in a room full of programmers, most of whom were in their twenties. One guy somewhere north of 40 had a PhD in an unrelated field and put a "Dr So and So" plaque where the normal name tag would have been on his cubicle. The plaque was not well received by the group and I thought later that it might have been good to leave an anonymous note letting him know that. But I guess it wouldn't have changed things and made him feel bad besides.


pilight



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PostPosted: 04/27/21 8:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Seems like they could come up with a different term besides doctor to reflect a PhD in a non-medical field.


Perhaps we need a new term to describe physicians, since the academic title is much older



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Shades



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PostPosted: 04/27/21 8:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9FRxnKWLxbM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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Queenie



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PostPosted: 04/27/21 9:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Is the degree a doctorate? Then the recipient is a doctor. Give them the respect they deserve. Does it really, truly, deeply affect your life either way?



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scullyfu



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PostPosted: 04/28/21 8:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
Is the degree a doctorate? Then the recipient is a doctor. Give them the respect they deserve. Does it really, truly, deeply affect your life either way?



Exactly, Queenie.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 04/28/21 10:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
Is the degree a doctorate? Then the recipient is a doctor. Give them the respect they deserve. Does it really, truly, deeply affect your life either way?


If you attempt to make me say something I don’t want to say then yes, I am asserting that that would be affecting my life. You are asking me to give someone something that I don’t necessarily want to give them for the reasons that they or you are demanding that I must and I would call that subjugating me to do someone else’s will.

As far as this being a hill I wish to stand on. Does it really, truly, deeply affect your life either way if I do or don’t choose to comply with some social imperative I don’t wish to comply with and wish to comment about it? No, but you’re compelled to voice an opinion on what I do or don’t do and you yourself are perfectly entitled to do that. And so very welcomed by me to do so.

It’s an educational level of achievement, Queenie. Not a profession or a job title. In an academic environment, of course. Because it is sort of those things in that environment. In that setting wherein delineating levels of academic achievement serves many important functions, yes. By all means, whatever.

But it’s not to be used and I refuse to use it as some sort of social ranking that someone outside of academia or my own desperate need to earn a living working with some self-aggrandizing asshat might insist on. Give them the respect they deserve! Fuck anyone who thinks they’re going to have my respect because they insist on ME addressing a non-MD as Dr.

And who? Friends, neighbors? Social settings? I live in a PhD rich environment. From the time I came to LA and as a (metaphorical) rule more PhDs than I could ever recall have never insisted that I call them anything other than their first name. Now I’ve heard of it happening in professional settings, but that was only because the insistence was seen as something abnormal. As with Justin, who is a PhD, it caused eyes to roll.

Can I imagine a neighbor insisting that I call him or her doctor because they have a PhD in education or political science? And who are they demanding this of? Other less-than people? Underlings? Staff? People who didn’t come from a family where an advanced degree was even a remote possibility?

And who ISN’T required to address these special people as Drs. while me and the rest of the lower life forms are compelled to?

What if we had a get together like so many of you WBB fans sometimes do? And Howee was there. And you guys are talking and Howee is calling you Queenie. And you say, “Yes, Howee…” and Howee says, “Excuse me, Queenie. Please address me as Dr Howee.”

Now forget Howee because Howee is not that kind of an asshole. Apparently. But multiply that. Multiply that by as many PhDs as there are walking among us. But thankfully most of them apparently aren’t those kinds of assholes either. But if this were some stronger established social imperative because we allow it to become one, then start trying to imagine some of these complicated scenarios.

I’m kind of not understanding how or why people here aren’t understanding the class implications of all this. You’re kind of coming down on the side of the well-off, the highly educated, and all that that entails in terms of a more privileged life not to mention a more privileged background and upbringing.

I’m sensitive to the working class. Respect for anyone above them on the totem pole is drilled into them as a class from birth. I saw it, I lived it, and then I was taught of its existence as a real thing in California in poli-sci and sociology classes here. The working classes and the poor are indoctrinated to be docile and compliant and accepting of their lot in life and there are so many little nips and snipes at their asses endured like this that serve to keep them in their places.

Again. Who are these requests or demands made upon? Who are they not made upon? People necessarily being the assholes that they so often are.

In summation. The only non-MDs who upon request that I will EVER willingly address as doctor are those who I absolutely know for certain do NOT have a fucking PhD.




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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
PUmatty



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PostPosted: 04/28/21 10:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Queenie wrote:
Is the degree a doctorate? Then the recipient is a doctor. Give them the respect they deserve. Does it really, truly, deeply affect your life either way?


If you attempt to make me say something I don’t want to say then yes, I am asserting that that would be affecting my life. You are asking me to give someone something that I don’t necessarily want to give them for the reasons that they or you are demanding that I must and I would call that subjugating me to do someone else’s will.

As far as this being a hill I wish to stand on. Does it really, truly, deeply affect your life either way if I do or don’t choose to comply with some social imperative I don’t wish to comply with and wish to comment about it? No, but you’re compelled to voice an opinion on what I do or don’t do and you yourself are perfectly entitled to do that. And so very welcomed by me to do so.

It’s an educational level of achievement, Queenie. Not a profession or a job title. In an academic environment, of course. Because it is sort of those things in that environment. In that setting wherein delineating levels of academic achievement serves many important functions, yes. By all means, whatever.

But it’s not to be used and I refuse to use it as some sort of social ranking that someone outside of academia or my own desperate need to earn a living working with some self-aggrandizing asshat might insist on. Give them the respect they deserve! Fuck anyone who thinks they’re going to have my respect because they insist on ME addressing a non-MD as Dr.

And who? Friends, neighbors? Social settings? I live in a PhD rich environment. From the time I came to LA and as a (metaphorical) rule more PhDs than I could ever recall have never insisted that I call them anything other than their first name. Now I’ve heard of it happening in professional settings, but that was only because the insistence was seen as something abnormal. As with Justin, who is a PhD, it caused eyes to roll.

Can I imagine a neighbor insisting that I call him or her doctor because they have a PhD in education or political science? And who are they demanding this of? Other less-than people? Underlings? Staff? People who didn’t come from a family where an advanced degree was even a remote possibility?

And who ISN’T required to address these special people as Drs. while me and the rest of the lower life forms are compelled to?

What if we had a get together like so many of you WBB fans sometimes do? And Howee was there. And you guys are talking and Howee is calling you Queenie. And you say, “Yes, Howee…” and Howee says, “Excuse me, Queenie. Please address me as Dr Howee.”

Now forget Howee because Howee is not that kind of an asshole. Apparently. But multiply that. Multiply that by as many PhDs as there are walking among us. But thankfully most of them apparently aren’t those kinds of assholes either. But if this were some stronger established social imperative because we allow it to become one, then start trying to imagine some of these complicated scenarios.

I’m kind of not understanding how or why people here aren’t understanding the class implications of all this. You’re kind of coming down on the side of the well-off, the highly educated, and all that that entails in terms of a more privileged life not to mention a more privileged background and upbringing.

I’m sensitive to the working class. Respect for anyone above them on the totem pole is drilled into them as a class from birth. I saw it, I lived it, and then I was taught of its existence as a real thing in California in poli-sci and sociology classes here. The working classes and the poor are indoctrinated to be docile and compliant and accepting of their lot in life and there are so many little nips and snipes at their asses endured like this that serve to keep them in their places.

Again. Who are these requests or demands made upon? Who are they not made upon? People necessarily being the assholes that they so often are.

In summation. The only non-MDs who upon request that I will EVER willingly address as doctor are those who I absolutely know for certain do NOT have a fucking PhD.



Are you just exhausted all of the time?


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 04/28/21 10:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I love what I do here, Matty. I’d actually like to be doing more.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 04/28/21 11:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
It’s an educational level of achievement, Queenie. Not a profession or a job title.


Except when it's your doctor. Razz Really, though....why might you so willingly accord the title "Doctor" when you address your cardiologist, dentist, or even veterinarian, but not your professor of physics? If you're saying that you don't wanna acknowledge your next-door neighbor as "Doctor" cuz they're only a PhD in biochemistry, okay....but it seems like much ado about nothing (important).



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/28/21 1:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
The only non-MDs who upon request that I will EVER willingly address as doctor are those who I absolutely know for certain do NOT have a fucking PhD.


Haha, I escape this ban via a legal loophole: I have a Juris Doctor. In fact, I have two legal degrees that are higher than a J.D. Yet, all I'm called by the general public is ambulance chaser, mouthpiece or shyster, even though I've never specialized in those traditional areas of law.

On the more general titular issue surrounding "lowly" and "wretched" professionals who hold Doctor of Philosophy degrees (even though 95% of them have probably never studied philosophy), here is an amusing take:

I’m not a doctor, but I play one on my CV

Quote:
And now that I’ve had my own Ph.D. for almost 9 years … I still don’t know what to do about my title.

It turns out I’m not alone. I polled many of my friends with science Ph.D.s for their thoughts about the “Doctor” question. I’ve categorized their replies into 11 groups . . . .


Then, of course, we (or at least Jammer) must wrestle with the nomenclatural propriety of Catholicism's 36 Doctors of the Church and the BBC's 58-year-old Doctor Who.
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 04/28/21 2:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
The only non-MDs who upon request that I will EVER willingly address as doctor are those who I absolutely know for certain do NOT have a fucking PhD.


Haha, I escape this ban via a legal loophole: I have a Juris Doctor. In fact, I have two legal degrees that are higher than a J.D. Yet, all I'm called by the general public is ambulance chaser, mouthpiece or shyster, even though I've never specialized in those traditional areas of law.

On the more general titular issue surrounding "lowly" and "wretched" professionals who hold Doctor of Philosophy degrees (even though 95% of them have probably never studied philosophy), here is an amusing take:

I’m not a doctor, but I play one on my CV

Quote:
And now that I’ve had my own Ph.D. for almost 9 years … I still don’t know what to do about my title.

It turns out I’m not alone. I polled many of my friends with science Ph.D.s for their thoughts about the “Doctor” question. I’ve categorized their replies into 11 groups . . . .


Then, of course, we (or at least Jammer) must wrestle with the nomenclatural propriety of Catholicism's 36 Doctors of the Church and the BBC's 58-year-old Doctor Who.


Ah-hah. I was going to bring up the Juris Doctor thing as it really is one of the better points to my thinking on this, Glenn. We don’t call lawyers, doctors. Somehow English speaking society chose to apply that educational distinction in the form of a title for pretty much all medical professionals. We don’t even address lawyers as Attorney MacGrady. But they possess every bit as much of a doctorate as a social sciences or educational PhD.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 04/28/21 2:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
It’s an educational level of achievement, Queenie. Not a profession or a job title.


Except when it's your doctor. Razz Really, though....why might you so willingly accord the title "Doctor" when you address your cardiologist, dentist, or even veterinarian, but not your professor of physics? If you're saying that you don't wanna acknowledge your next-door neighbor as "Doctor" cuz they're only a PhD in biochemistry, okay....but it seems like much ado about nothing (important).



I know it was a long post and you’re probably completely over reading two words I might write but I would certainly adhere to whatever conventions were applicable in an academic setting. For the reasons I stated above which you apparently are too high and mighty with your PhD to actually read. Very Happy



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 04/28/21 3:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
If you're saying that you don't wanna acknowledge your next-door neighbor as "Doctor" cuz they're only a PhD in biochemistry, okay....but it seems like much ado about nothing (important).


Well CLEARLY. “I” think that things like this that I call nips and snipes that let anyone assert their status above others and, if asserting is not enough, forcing those lower than themselves educationally to mouth some sort of a verbal acknowledgment of respect for their very quite privileged educational achievement IS something about something important or I wouldn’t be making these arguments against it.

But here is maybe something I haven’t communicated well and this might to some extent be a California thing and I alluded to that in my first post here. You say, I maybe wouldn’t want to acknowledge my next-door neighbor as Doctor because he’s not an MD.

It’s not a jammer thing. It’s not me. It’s the environment I live in. I’ve never seen nor heard of any non-MD in a private setting called Doctor let alone insisting upon it. It’s just not done. It doesn’t exist here. I’m kind of wondering what some of you are suggesting is the norm where you live. Maybe that’s why you’re suggesting it’s much ado about nothing. Because the scenario doesn’t exist where you are either.

But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. It most certainly does exist in certain situations. That’s why it’s coming up now in the news more frequently. It happened with Jill Biden at some point around the election. It happened again as we see in the video Shades posted where I think someone had to resign or was fired for not addressing a non-MD as doctor after I think a fellow member of some board or council demanded that he do that.

And it does happen in the workplace occasionally and I will tell you by way of reminding you that Justin, who is a PhD in an educational environment, said that he rolls his eyes when a fellow professor insists on being called Doctor, that that is a very common reaction. His reaction. Not my reaction. My reaction is much more vociferous. People who in any situation other than a precious few thankfully, insist that someone below them in terms of status, educational level, wealth or class, etc. must call them Doctor, are a special kind of asshole.

Now, if you’re saying that as we continue to mint more and more PhDs that this will not continue to be a thing then I would strongly suggest that you are going to be proved wrong. It’s happening. It’s becoming politicized. It’s becoming weaponized. That’s really what this is about.

I’ve long had a problem with this. And what I’m doing here is pointing out that I’ve long had a problem with it. And that many many others do as well. Having a problem with it predates the weaponization of this little petty bullshit that is now suddenly seen as not so petty. And so before this becomes another destructive hand grenade thrown about by the Woke social justice warriors among us crying sexism or racism, I wanted to establish that arguments against it existed long before this moment we find ourselves in today and contribute my own.




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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 04/28/21 3:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
We don’t call lawyers, doctors. . . . We don’t even address lawyers as Attorney MacGrady.


In most states and according the the ABA, a lawyer can be addressed as Doctor as long as the context doesn't mislead clients. But it is strongly traditional not to do so because it is considered too self-laudatory and pretentious.

It is, however, fairly common both within and without the profession to be addressed as Attorney LastName when, for some reason, the situation calls for professional identification. For example, at a meeting, people may be introduced as Attorney A, District Attorney B, Attorney General C, Judge D, Officer E, Sheriff F, Doctor (M.D. of pathology medicine) G, Doctor (Ph.D. of forensic criminology) H.

Lawyers are also sometimes called Counselor LastName.

Finally, Anglo-American lawyers historically have been entitled to use the honorific Esquire and sign their name with an "Esq.", which indicates one is a practicing lawyer.
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