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undersized_post



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 3:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
UP, the relevant question, parallel to the OP's, isn't whether you (or I, with a YouTube channel formerly devoted to it) are serious fans of GHSBB, but whether the general populace would become more serious about GHSBB it if it had the same rules as BHSBB. My answer is the same: No.


I understood your point, and I wasn't attempting to contradict or disagree. I was simply sharing my experience with GHSBB.

As a side note though, it's a bad comparison and doesn't really reveal insight into the OP's question. High school is scarcely televised, not intended to make money, there is little competition on a national level, and it is not marketed to a national audience. There are plenty of GHSBB fans--it's just an inherently more localized thing.


Queenie



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 4:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The number of people who would have a light bulb go off over their heads and decide that women's basketball is maybe actually a product worthy of existing after all, solely due to rules changes, is probably not significant. They'll find some other reason to decide that it's inferior. We've seen the goalposts move regarding dunks, after all.

That being said: the men should play quarters and advance the ball, the three-point line could probably stand to be the same, and I'll defer to the judgment of people who shoot basketballs regarding the different size.

Also, a sidebar: am I the only person who feels weird about watching high school basketball when I don't personally know any of the players? Like, there are words that are used to describe adults with a prurient interest in teenagers, and none of them are nice ones.



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Hoopsmom



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 5:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There are idiots on social media who use any excuse possible to denigrate women sports, I’ve seen commenting on women sport posts and acting surprised that women’s basketball even exists. These people are just trying to get a rise, but really all they are doing a showing their ignorance and stupidity.
I do not like the quarters. Here in Minnesota, high schools play halves, with no shot clock. While the addition of the shot clock would make it more interesting, we already score more points than all the other states because we play halves instead of quarters. Players do not kill time halfway through the half. I do think the three-point line should be the same for men and women. When watching games, the vast majority of the female three-point shooters I see are already standing behind the men’s line. I think the women should keep the smaller ball. Women inherently have smaller hands, and are thus better able to control a ball that is more in line with the size of their hands. And I hate that we do not have one-and-one available in the women’s game, as it is such a huge strategy tool for coaches.




Last edited by Hoopsmom on 04/07/21 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
undersized_post



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 6:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hoopsmom wrote:
I do not like the quarters. Here in Minnesota, high schools play halves, with no shot clock. While the addition of the shot clock would make it more interesting, we already score more points than all the other states because we play halves instead of quarters. Players do not kill time halfway through the half.


This is interesting to me. I didn't realize playing halves might have the tendency to lead to higher scores. Would you/someone be willing to say more about that?


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PostPosted: 04/05/21 6:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hoopsmom wrote:
we already score more points than all the other states because we play halves instead of quarters. Players do not kill time halfway through the half.


That doesn't apply to college games, where they have media timeouts every four minutes when you play halves. There are fewer breaks with quarters.



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 11:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The smaller ball is specified to bounce higher when dropped from six feet (51-56 inches) than the larger ball (49-54 inches). I've heard the claim, perhaps by Geno, that the smaller ball therefore more easily pops out of the basket when bouncing or rattling around the rim.
summertime blues



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PostPosted: 04/06/21 10:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've noticed in other places (non-women's sports oriented) that the people who don't take women's basketball, or other women's sports for that matter, seriously tend not to take women seriously. They refer to "girls (no apostrophe) basketball" etc. and are denigrating toward the people who play and watch it. You can't educate them.



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PlayBally'all



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PostPosted: 04/06/21 10:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't see anything wrong with acknowledging the physical differences between men and women. The goal in collegiate athletics has always been to provide opportunities to student athletes to participate in competitive amateur sports. In order to ensure that opportunities are available to both male and female student athletes, we have male sports and female sports. There can be differences between the two and yet one not be inferior to the other.

If my niece or daughter is an elite softball pitcher, why would I want her athleticism judged against males playing baseball? She is predetermined genetically to develop differently than her male counterpart pitching. That doesn't mean that she or her sport is inferior, it simply means that there are differences and we shouldn't shy away from acknowledging those and celebrating them, rather than feel the need to compensate for them in some way.


PlayBally'all



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PostPosted: 04/06/21 10:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
I've noticed in other places (non-women's sports oriented) that the people who don't take women's basketball, or other women's sports for that matter, seriously tend not to take women seriously. They refer to "girls (no apostrophe) basketball" etc. and are denigrating toward the people who play and watch it. You can't educate them.


I find that those same people have never spent a Sunday afternoon in the gym actually watching the game and being energized by the competition. If they ever do, many of their opinions start to change. Getting them in there is the tough part. LOL


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/06/21 1:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lots of things:

1) 1-and-1: One reason to go to two shots was to limit fouling in the late stages of a game -- and thus make the game less physical. I like the rule because I really hate intentional fouling. It's almost impossible to officiate and can lead to unnecessary animosity.

2) Small ball: The lighter ball bounces off the rim much more so than the heavier men's ball, so you don't get the same "roll." I think the biggest difference is in ballhandling, and the logic is that women have smaller hands.

I don't think it matters much, but as I mentioned, there's too much money involved for this to change.

3) Minnesota high school: The reason Minnesota scores more is that they play four extra minutes (12.5%) than everyone else. It's a great rule, by the way, and I wish all high schools would play 9-minute quarters or 18-minute halves. It just gives more girls a chance to play.

4) Shot clock: The reason most states don't have a shot clock is cost. There is a fixed cost in buying shot clocks, but the big ongoing cost is paying someone to run them for every game at every level, boys and girls.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 04/06/21 1:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The people who don't take it seriously are not going to be swayed by any of that.

One thing, though...

Quote:
halves instead of quarters. Do the women need a couple of extra, extended breaks between game action?


Playing quarters means fewer breaks, not more. Playing halves means four media breaks (16, 12, 8, and 4 minutes left in the half). Playing quarters means three (middle of each quarter plus between quarters).


I mean, it wasn't THAT long ago that the NCAA women DID play with 20 min halves, no? (or am I remembering the wnba??) I remember being glad they went to quarters.

Different ball/court dimensions? Meh. I mean, women do NOT play with a differently-sized tennis court, nor smaller balls. Racquet size may vary. Volleyball nets are different heights, according to gender. Gymnasts utilize different equipment. Badminton players? Nope.

Frankly -- and I've said this ad infinitum -- I wish they'd RAISE the hoops for MEN! 11 ft. rims -- reduce the dunking drama, make 'em PLAY the game the way Naismith intended for it to be played. Cool



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PostPosted: 04/06/21 1:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Elena Delle Donne has strongly urged lowering the rim in the WNBA for "the future of the game."
myrtle



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PostPosted: 04/06/21 3:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:


2) Small ball: The lighter ball bounces off the rim much more so than the heavier men's ball, so you don't get the same "roll." I think the biggest difference is in ballhandling, and the logic is that women have smaller hands.



agree. But I also think a similar thing happens with handling as how it is on the rims. The heavier ball IMO is easier to handle. The lighter ball skitters around more easily so it actually requires more skill to dribble it IMO. Try dribbling a volleyball for a larger difference in weight and see how difficult that is. [I have pretty medium size hands, probably smaller than most players today, but not as small as the tiny ones.]


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PostPosted: 04/06/21 3:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Elena Delle Donne has strongly urged lowering the rim in the WNBA for "the future of the game."


and I think this is ridiculous for all kinds of reasons.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 04/06/21 4:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think the rules should be the same, incl quarters for men, the same 3-pt line, and 1+1 FT's. I also think the ball should be the same size. Women can learn to shoot the larger ball just like men could shoot the smaller one. IMO the biggest difficulty comes from going back and forth between sizes. Don't girls (the good players anyway) play with boys any more in pickup games or even HORSE? Leave women's rim heights alone...Naismith never intended layups to be gimme's and there's no reason players can't learn this skill. I'm not sure about raising the rims for men.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/06/21 4:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
I think the rules should be the same, incl quarters for men, the same 3-pt line, and 1+1 FT's. I also think the ball should be the same size. Women can learn to shoot the larger ball just like men could shoot the smaller one. IMO the biggest difficulty comes from going back and forth between sizes. Don't girls (the good players anyway) play with boys any more in pickup games or even HORSE? Leave women's rim heights alone...Naismith never intended layups to be gimme's and there's no reason players can't learn this skill. I'm not sure about raising the rims for men.


The ball should be the same size (though I do think the smaller one is easier for me to handle (I have small hands)).

And that's one of the big weaknesses of the women's game -- girls seldom play pickup of any kind. They're either with a trainer, practicing with a team or playing an organized game. I've always felt there's a lot to be said for five hours at the park, winner holds the court -- you learn that turnovers make you watch rather than play, and older guys punish mental mistakes.

But I couldn't get one of our players to play pickup at a local club. The game was almost all older guys, and the mom said "I'm afraid she'll get hurt." If anyone was liable to get hurt, it was a 45-year-old man, not a 17-year-old girl in peak physical condition.

The capper, though, was when she came back home after playing in the Ivy League. I asked the mom about adjustments the girl had made and she said "The players are so strong, and play really physical."

Umm, just like the guys in pickup, which would have eased her transition enormously.



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undersized_post



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PostPosted: 04/06/21 10:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:

2) Small ball: The lighter ball bounces off the rim much more so than the heavier men's ball, so you don't get the same "roll." I think the biggest difference is in ballhandling, and the logic is that women have smaller hands

On the other hand, the women's ball has a smaller diameter so it's more likely to not hit the rim at all (aka: swish), negating the need for a lucky bounce. Statistically speaking, the slightly increased likelihood of swishing would balance out the fractionally less friendly bounce.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/07/21 9:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

undersized_post wrote:
ClayK wrote:

2) Small ball: The lighter ball bounces off the rim much more so than the heavier men's ball, so you don't get the same "roll." I think the biggest difference is in ballhandling, and the logic is that women have smaller hands

On the other hand, the women's ball has a smaller diameter so it's more likely to not hit the rim at all (aka: swish), negating the need for a lucky bounce. Statistically speaking, the slightly increased likelihood of swishing would balance out the fractionally less friendly bounce.


Exactly ... so no difference, really.



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Phil



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PostPosted: 04/12/21 11:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I support:
1. Same size ball
2. Same three point line
5. Leaving the basket height where it is (some have argued for lowering the basket)

In each of these cases, the existing rule or proposed rule sends an implicit message that the women quite up to the same abilities as the men. I am fully aware that some trolls will make that argument even if the rules were identical, but I don't see any reason to deliver simple arguments that are not trivial to refute.

Regarding:
3 halves instead of quarters

As is already been pointed out, quarters do not produce an extra break if anything one fewer.

The best argument in favor of quarters is that's what happens in every other situation. High school in the US plays four quarters, so do collegiate women, so do the pros, both men and women in the US, and so does FIBA. College men's basketball is the odd man out. I wasn't sure whether I would like quarters but I do, and I can't think of a good reason why the men's collegiate ball should make an exception to every other situation, so let's stick with quarters for women's collegiate ball and let the men adopt the sensible approach.

Regarding:
4. advancing the ball on a timeout into the frontcourt.
Like huskiemaniac, I have mixed emotions about the advance in the final minute. I didn't think I'd like it, but I've seen several situations where it did seem to make sense. As huskiemaniac says, it does create a slight preference for offense of defense and that's hard to defend, so-to-speak, but on balance, I support it.

I am absolutely opposed to the 1-1. I'm trying to work up a clear argument to explain my antipathy but I haven't worked out the words yet. Not a good idea.

However, if we are going to talk about tinkering with foul shooting rules, I think the end of close games gets unnecessarily dragged out when players at both ends are living at the foul line. I don't see a good reason for eliminating the foul shots, but there is no inherent reason why one should have to take two or three foul shots, which takes up a lot of time. If you filed when you make a basket you get one shot worth one point. If you are filed attempting to make a basket but the ball doesn't go in, you get to go to the following line and take one shot worth either two or three depending on where you're shooting from. This would save several minutes in closely contested games where we go from action to standing around too much.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/12/21 11:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
I support:
1. Same size ball
2. Same three point line
5. Leaving the basket height where it is (some have argued for lowering the basket)

In each of these cases, the existing rule or proposed rule sends an implicit message that the women quite up to the same abilities as the men. I am fully aware that some trolls will make that argument even if the rules were identical, but I don't see any reason to deliver simple arguments that are not trivial to refute.

Regarding:
3 halves instead of quarters

As is already been pointed out, quarters do not produce an extra break if anything one fewer.

The best argument in favor of quarters is that's what happens in every other situation. High school in the US plays four quarters, so do collegiate women, so do the pros, both men and women in the US, and so does FIBA. College men's basketball is the odd man out. I wasn't sure whether I would like quarters but I do, and I can't think of a good reason why the men's collegiate ball should make an exception to every other situation, so let's stick with quarters for women's collegiate ball and let the men adopt the sensible approach.

Regarding:
4. advancing the ball on a timeout into the frontcourt.
Like huskiemaniac, I have mixed emotions about the advance in the final minute. I didn't think I'd like it, but I've seen several situations where it did seem to make sense. As huskiemaniac says, it does create a slight preference for offense of defense and that's hard to defend, so-to-speak, but on balance, I support it.

I am absolutely opposed to the 1-1. I'm trying to work up a clear argument to explain my antipathy but I haven't worked out the words yet. Not a good idea.

However, if we are going to talk about tinkering with foul shooting rules, I think the end of close games gets unnecessarily dragged out when players at both ends are living at the foul line. I don't see a good reason for eliminating the foul shots, but there is no inherent reason why one should have to take two or three foul shots, which takes up a lot of time. If you filed when you make a basket you get one shot worth one point. If you are filed attempting to make a basket but the ball doesn't go in, you get to go to the following line and take one shot worth either two or three depending on where you're shooting from. This would save several minutes in closely contested games where we go from action to standing around too much.


Agree with most of this. However, regarding the advancing of the ball. As someone that loves in your face defense and pressing the opponent, I hate the fact that the offense gets to advance the ball 50' closer to their basket just because they called a timeout. They should have to get through my press in order to score. I hate the advancement of the ball.

Secondly, no one will ever convince me that a player can score 3 points on a single foul shot from 15' without being defended. I can't even really fathom the thought of 2 points on a single foul shot. They have no rules (can double dribble, hold the ball for 9 seconds, etc) and no defense.

I am also in favor of the 1 & 1.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/12/21 11:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

To speed up the end of games, my plan would be for coaches to have to choose either

a) advance the ball; or

b) 30- or 60-seconds with team.

So if you called a timeout to advance the ball, you couldn't spend the time. If you wanted to draw something up, you can't advance the ball.



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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/12/21 3:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
To speed up the end of games, my plan would be for coaches to have to choose either

a) advance the ball; or

b) 30- or 60-seconds with team.

So if you called a timeout to advance the ball, you couldn't spend the time. If you wanted to draw something up, you can't advance the ball.


Hmmmm, that's interesting. It would be kinda like taking a timeout to sub kids in at the end of the game when you don't really want the timeout but just want to be able to get players out. I think I kinda like that idea.


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PostPosted: 04/13/21 7:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Re: recent rule changes - I love the quarters (and find that I dislike halves in MBB now). I would rather see the 1+1 and no ball advancement.

The three point line should be moved back.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/13/21 8:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mzonefan wrote:
Re: recent rule changes - I love the quarters (and find that I dislike halves in MBB now). I would rather see the 1+1 and no ball advancement.

The three point line should be moved back.


I was anti quarters when it was done, but find I also prefer that as well. You and I are in agreement on all those rules.


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PostPosted: 04/13/21 9:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:
mzonefan wrote:
Re: recent rule changes - I love the quarters (and find that I dislike halves in MBB now). I would rather see the 1+1 and no ball advancement.

The three point line should be moved back.


I was anti quarters when it was done, but find I also prefer that as well. You and I are in agreement on all those rules.


I also agree with quarters now. I liked the 1+1 and kind of miss it. I'd leave everything else alone. What I hate is intentional fouling at the end of the game.



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