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Was the SEC Overseeded?

 
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Was the SEC Over-Valued by the Selection Committee?
Yes
75%
 75%  [ 22 ]
No
24%
 24%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 29

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PickledGinger



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 4:07 pm    ::: Was the SEC Overseeded? Reply Reply with quote

Let's take a look at how the SEC has performed in the tournament so far.

They came into the field with SIX top 4 seeds, and only two of them are still alive in the Sweet 16. And that comes after 2-Seed Texas A&M almost lost their first round game.

6-Seed Oregon just took down 3-seed Georgia without their starter or primary backup at point guard. *Kudos to Maddie Scherr for stepping in to that role and dominating the perimeter with her defense, btw.

4-Seed Arkansas lost in the first round in what has been the biggest upset so far. Another 3-Seed Tennessee was upset by 6-Seed Michigan in the second round, along with 4-Seed Kentucky getting crushed by 5-Seed Iowa.

The only SEC berth outside the top 4 seeds was 7-Seed Alabama, who were lights out in round one but couldn't hang with Maryland in a 36 point loss.

Meanwhile, the ACC, Big Ten and Pac-12 have had teams outside the top 4 seeds advance to the Sweet 16. If Iowa State beats A&M, add them to the list.

So, the question is: Was the SEC overvalued / over-seeded by the selection committee, in comparison to the other 4 Power 5 conferences? And does that bring out questions about the NET in it's first year of use as their foundation for decision-making?



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 4:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd have to say Yes. Some of this mirrors the over-valuing seen in the rankings all year. TAMU and KY were both over-ranked and overseeded. I'd say Tenn, UGa, and Ark were all probably seeded a level too high. I don't know if the committee purposefully avoided giving Tenn the #4 seed so that there'd be a better chance of meeting UConn in the E8. I was shocked Alabama made the tourney in the first place. Their OOC schedule was complete cupcakes, their "signature" win was over Miss St, and they didn't have a single win over the top echelon of the SEC.

Having said that, I'd give the committee a pass this year, given that COVID made both scheduling and player availability a crap shoot.


undersized_post



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 5:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd tend to say yes. But I think it might just be more that there is a lot of parity among the 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 seeds this year. I think if Iowa/Kentucky and Michigan/Tennessee had each played a 5 game series, for example, the SEC teams would win at least 2 if not 3 games in each of those series.

That said, I'm happy for my B1G teams Very Happy


myrtle



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 5:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Part of the issue comes from however they create the NET. So I don't know how the initial NET values are formed but once formed then all the SEC teams gain in the NET by playing against each other, which create a self-fulfilling circle. So they're all great...according to the NET because they end up with top 25 or top 50 NET wins. This was Peck's argument that there should be more SEC teams in the tournament and that A&M should be a #1.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 5:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My long-running issue with the SEC is that it emphasizes athleticism over skill -- and I think the Georgia-Oregon game was the epitome of that.

Oregon struggled against the athleticism of Georgia the entire game. The Ducks would struggle, flail about, and somehow manage to deal with the pressure just enough to get a decent shot. Even so, Georgia's quickness, speed and defensive intensity were a huge problem for Oregon all game.

Georgia, on the other hand, can't shoot. They 315th out of 343 teams in points from three-point distance, and when faced with a competent zone -- and two strong, agile posts -- the Bulldogs just couldn't figure out a way to score.

And the only way for a smaller team to beat a zone is to make outside shots, and Georgia couldn't do that. They could rebound amazingly well, again using their quickness and athleticism, but in the end, they lacked the shooting to win the game.

A lot of this goes back to Pat Summitt's formula for victory: Get bigger, quicker athletes who could jump, then defend and pound the boards on both ends. That formula was made for the pre-three era, and can even work now -- if you have some shooters. But for whatever reason, SEC teams don't recruit enough shooters, it appears, relying on athletes to win.

In 2021, that doesn't work as well as it used to.



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patsweetpat



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 6:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
A lot of this goes back to Pat Summitt's formula for victory: Get bigger, quicker athletes who could jump, then defend and pound the boards on both ends. That formula was made for the pre-three era, and can even work now -- if you have some shooters. But for whatever reason, SEC teams don't recruit enough shooters, it appears, relying on athletes to win.

In 2021, that doesn't work as well as it used to.


I remember attending a team/donor function when the erstwhile Nikki Caldwell was UCLA's coach. So this would've been maybe 10 years ago. Anyway, Nikki was addressing the donors about something or other, and I don't recall the exact context for this moment, but at some point she turned to the team and asked, "And how do we win?" The players grumbled in response, with almost an exhausted eye-roll, "defense and boards". Those three words, in that specific sequence, had clearly been drummed into them umpteen-jillion times.

At the moment, those words struck me as probably what had been drummed into Nikki herself by you-know-how. And it's not as though that mindset wasn't yielding fruit for the Bruins... Nikki had turned them into an improved team, now getting to the tournament for the first time in quite a while. But UCLA never did get past the 2nd round with Nikki at the helm, and it doesn't seem as though LSU has been getting a whole lot further in the decade since.

It's possible that such a mindset, in this day and age, can indeed raise a program's floor, but also comes with a limited ceiling. I dunno.


patsweetpat



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 6:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

undersized_post wrote:
That said, I'm happy for my B1G teams Very Happy


What a tournament you guys are having. Holy crud. Hope you're enjoying it.


PickledGinger



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 8:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I really want the Aggies to lose badly now. They've had 2 games handed to them on a platter by the refs so far in this tourney. When the announcers were suggesting that that no-call on Donarski could be a disqualifying foul I was screaming at the television. Her friggin eyes were closed, there is no way that was intentional.

That being said, great game Jordan Nixon. How the hell was she not their focal point of offense this season?



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undersized_post



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 8:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

patsweetpat wrote:
undersized_post wrote:
That said, I'm happy for my B1G teams Very Happy


What a tournament you guys are having. Holy crud. Hope you're enjoying it.


Thank you! I'm enjoying it indeed. I'd be enjoying it even more if Rutgers and Northwestern could learn how to hold on to a lead in the second half Rolling Eyes


PickledGinger



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 11:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

undersized_post wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
undersized_post wrote:
That said, I'm happy for my B1G teams Very Happy


What a tournament you guys are having. Holy crud. Hope you're enjoying it.


Thank you! I'm enjoying it indeed. I'd be enjoying it even more if Rutgers and Northwestern could learn how to hold on to a lead in the second half Rolling Eyes


Putting the nation on watch, the Big 10 is going to dominate next year. Considering the conference is only losing 3 or 4 of it's top players, they deserve some serious respect coming into next season. Don't forget that Ohio State is legit. No telling how they would have fared.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 11:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
A lot of this goes back to Pat Summitt's formula for victory: Get bigger, quicker athletes who could jump, then defend and pound the boards on both ends. That formula was made for the pre-three era, and can even work now -- if you have some shooters.


She developed that formula when there were far fewer skilled players in the women's game and most of those weren't as skilled as the players today. It was easier to find athletes and teach them some skills than to find players with some skill and teach them to be more athletic. That equation has changed considerably, especially since the advent of the WNBA.



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TechDawgMc



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PostPosted: 03/24/21 11:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My impression is that the lack of inter-conference games has made it very difficult to have good rankings -- and the NCAA just tends to go with what it thinks are the best conferences anyway.

We've seen it in both tourneys -- the B10 totally underperformed in the men's side, and the B12 wasn't far behind. For the women, it's been the SEC failing. OTOH, the Pac for the men and the B10 for the women have surprised.

I suspect it was just a lot harder to evaluate teams this year.


thardy929



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PostPosted: 03/25/21 9:31 am    ::: Re: Was the SEC Overseeded? Reply Reply with quote

PickledGinger wrote:

6-Seed Oregon just took down 3-seed Georgia without their starter or primary backup at point guard. *Kudos to Maddie Scherr for stepping in to that role and dominating the perimeter with her defense, btw.


ClayK wrote:

Georgia, on the other hand, can't shoot. They 315th out of 343 teams in points from three-point distance, and when faced with a competent zone -- and two strong, agile posts -- the Bulldogs just couldn't figure out a way to score.


To be fair to Georgia, they were essentially without their starting point guard, Gabby Connally, who only played 11 minutes due to an ankle injury. She's their top 3 point shooter at 38.2% (up to 39.8% in SEC play), making almost 2 per game.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 03/25/21 10:34 am    ::: Re: Was the SEC Overseeded? Reply Reply with quote

thardy929 wrote:
PickledGinger wrote:

6-Seed Oregon just took down 3-seed Georgia without their starter or primary backup at point guard. *Kudos to Maddie Scherr for stepping in to that role and dominating the perimeter with her defense, btw.


ClayK wrote:

Georgia, on the other hand, can't shoot. They 315th out of 343 teams in points from three-point distance, and when faced with a competent zone -- and two strong, agile posts -- the Bulldogs just couldn't figure out a way to score.


To be fair to Georgia, they were essentially without their starting point guard, Gabby Connally, who only played 11 minutes due to an ankle injury. She's their top 3 point shooter at 38.2% (up to 39.8% in SEC play), making almost 2 per game.


Oregon was without their starting point guard (and maybe their best player) and a key perimeter backup ... but in terms of 3-point shooting, Georgia was 315th out of 343 in three-point scoring with Connolly.

When Georgia was playing other SEC teams, it didn't matter as much, apparently.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 03/25/21 10:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PickledGinger wrote:
Putting the nation on watch, the Big 10 is going to dominate next year. Considering the conference is only losing 3 or 4 of it's top players, they deserve some serious respect coming into next season. Don't forget that Ohio State is legit. No telling how they would have fared.


They certainly will be. I'm thinking of the Pac 12, too. They still have 3 teams in the sweet 16, 2 of them very *young*. And their middling teams are on the rise, too. But....it serves well to remember that, between the crop of 5th year seniors, new recruits/transfers, injuries, etc., one can never really know.

SEC has had a bummer tournament (well, maybe not TAMU Razz) I really expected TN to go further, but AL and KY losses did not surprise me.



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huskiemaniac



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PostPosted: 03/25/21 12:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
My long-running issue with the SEC is that it emphasizes athleticism over skill -- and I think the Georgia-Oregon game was the epitome of that.

Oregon struggled against the athleticism of Georgia the entire game. The Ducks would struggle, flail about, and somehow manage to deal with the pressure just enough to get a decent shot. Even so, Georgia's quickness, speed and defensive intensity were a huge problem for Oregon all game.

Georgia, on the other hand, can't shoot. They 315th out of 343 teams in points from three-point distance, and when faced with a competent zone -- and two strong, agile posts -- the Bulldogs just couldn't figure out a way to score.

And the only way for a smaller team to beat a zone is to make outside shots, and Georgia couldn't do that. They could rebound amazingly well, again using their quickness and athleticism, but in the end, they lacked the shooting to win the game.

A lot of this goes back to Pat Summitt's formula for victory: Get bigger, quicker athletes who could jump, then defend and pound the boards on both ends. That formula was made for the pre-three era, and can even work now -- if you have some shooters. But for whatever reason, SEC teams don't recruit enough shooters, it appears, relying on athletes to win.

In 2021, that doesn't work as well as it used to.



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linkster



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PostPosted: 03/25/21 1:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
My long-running issue with the SEC is that it emphasizes athleticism over skill -- and I think the Georgia-Oregon game was the epitome of that.

Oregon struggled against the athleticism of Georgia the entire game. The Ducks would struggle, flail about, and somehow manage to deal with the pressure just enough to get a decent shot. Even so, Georgia's quickness, speed and defensive intensity were a huge problem for Oregon all game.

Georgia, on the other hand, can't shoot. They 315th out of 343 teams in points from three-point distance, and when faced with a competent zone -- and two strong, agile posts -- the Bulldogs just couldn't figure out a way to score.

And the only way for a smaller team to beat a zone is to make outside shots, and Georgia couldn't do that. They could rebound amazingly well, again using their quickness and athleticism, but in the end, they lacked the shooting to win the game.

A lot of this goes back to Pat Summitt's formula for victory: Get bigger, quicker athletes who could jump, then defend and pound the boards on both ends. That formula was made for the pre-three era, and can even work now -- if you have some shooters. But for whatever reason, SEC teams don't recruit enough shooters, it appears, relying on athletes to win.

In 2021, that doesn't work as well as it used to.



It does work extremely well against teams ranked below 30. That's why so many teams that play that style get in the tournament. Any why, when facing higher-ranked teams with scorers they lose.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 03/25/21 5:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
ClayK wrote:
My long-running issue with the SEC is that it emphasizes athleticism over skill -- and I think the Georgia-Oregon game was the epitome of that.

Oregon struggled against the athleticism of Georgia the entire game. The Ducks would struggle, flail about, and somehow manage to deal with the pressure just enough to get a decent shot. Even so, Georgia's quickness, speed and defensive intensity were a huge problem for Oregon all game.

Georgia, on the other hand, can't shoot. They 315th out of 343 teams in points from three-point distance, and when faced with a competent zone -- and two strong, agile posts -- the Bulldogs just couldn't figure out a way to score.

And the only way for a smaller team to beat a zone is to make outside shots, and Georgia couldn't do that. They could rebound amazingly well, again using their quickness and athleticism, but in the end, they lacked the shooting to win the game.

A lot of this goes back to Pat Summitt's formula for victory: Get bigger, quicker athletes who could jump, then defend and pound the boards on both ends. That formula was made for the pre-three era, and can even work now -- if you have some shooters. But for whatever reason, SEC teams don't recruit enough shooters, it appears, relying on athletes to win.

In 2021, that doesn't work as well as it used to.



It does work extremely well against teams ranked below 30. That's why so many teams that play that style get in the tournament. Any why, when facing higher-ranked teams with scorers they lose.


Which is actually an interesting point: Do you want to design a program that will succeed in postseason, or one that succeeds in the regular season? It's harder to put together a team that can get to the Elite 8 than it is to build one that can win 20 games every year, so there's a boom-and-bust risk involved.

From a coach's point of view, though, those big checks keep coming with every 20-win season but an Elite 8 every four or five years might not be enough to keep you employed.



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RP



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PostPosted: 03/27/21 8:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Texas A&M almost lost in the same way Arkansas almost won. It's variance.

The short answer is "probably not." Arkansas beat UConn and Baylor during the regular season, Tennessee and Kentucky beat Indiana, and Georgia beat Georgia Tech, all teams that are in the Sweet 16.


Howee



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PostPosted: 03/27/21 9:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RP wrote:
Texas A&M almost lost in the same way Arkansas almost won. It's variance.

The short answer is "probably not." Arkansas beat UConn and Baylor during the regular season, Tennessee and Kentucky beat Indiana, and Georgia beat Georgia Tech, all teams that are in the Sweet 16.


Hmmm. That's beginning to resemble actual *parity*... Shocked Cool



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