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VACCINATION NATION
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Will You Be Getting the Coronavirus Vaccine?
Yes
40%
 40%  [ 6 ]
Hell to the Yeah
20%
 20%  [ 3 ]
Throw a dart and aim for my ass, yes
20%
 20%  [ 3 ]
Use a blowgun and hit me in the neck as I drive by the ER
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
No, personal health reasons
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
No, I don't trust/believe in it.
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 15

Author Message
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20862



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PostPosted: 12/18/20 2:19 pm    ::: VACCINATION NATION Reply Reply with quote

Okay, facetious poll aside, this is the thread we need to be having now. If you come to Area 51 looking for some action, I predict this will be where you're going to find it up till about late spring.

So without further adieu, let me piss everyone off that I possibly can.

Here find a piece in the LA Times that says there's a panel determining who gets the vaccine next after front line healthcare workers and nursing home residents. Goes something like this...

California’s first responders, farmworkers and educators would be among those next in line to be vaccinated against COVID-19 under recommendations a state advisory committee discussed this week.

Education and childcare: Childcare workers, preschools, elementary and secondary school personnel, community colleges, colleges and universities, and trade schools, child and youth services, shelters, nonresidential social services for the elderly and people with disabilities, and justice and safety activities.


So... school personnel but not hospital personnel?

Yes, I cherry picked for maximum effect but I certainly haven't done so dishonestly. These are those who are slated to be next up for vaccinations in the state of California. And I find it outrageous. You could not find a better way to focus on privileged elites than zeroing in on the education system where most people working in that field have advanced degrees. Advanced degrees generally signifies means. And let's be real here, incredible numbers. That's a lot of arms taking up a lot of this precious covid vaccine.

When I saw this I linked to the article immediately and tweeted, Why not those most likely to die?

And I realize the pickle in determining who among those in the most likely to die age and medical condition ranges is a very large group and these would be an equally contentious and logistically difficult determinations to make... but you can't seriously be injecting that vaccine into twenty something TAs and young social services workers and people in their 30s etc. just because they work in education. And please, in the massive state and bureaucratic expanse that is California public services... right there in those few words you are saying that everyone who is connected in the state of California is next up to get these vaccines.

And, I should point out, that the headline story today on the top of the LA Times website is this. People of color, elderly pay the cruelest price as COVID-19 spreads throughout L.A. County

Younger adults are spreading the virus the most, officials said, but it’s the oldest adults, when they get infected, who are dying at the highest rates.

If there are more super-spreader events on those holidays, the impact will likely continue to be felt unevenly.

That’s because people living in the most impoverished areas of L.A. County are also more likely to die from COVID-19.

“The death rate among people living in the lowest-resource areas is now four times that of people living in areas with the most resources,” Ferrer said. “And unfortunately, this gap, too, looks to be growing.”

While the death rate among white residents remains stable — at one to two per day per 100,000 white residents — the death rates for Latino, Black and Asian residents are rising. Among Latino residents over the past four weeks, for example, the death rate has jumped from 1.4 daily deaths per 100,000 Latino residents to 4.5 daily deaths.


And then there's this as well from today's LA Times. The wealthy scramble for COVID-19 vaccines: ‘If I donate $25,000 ... would that help me?’

Taryn Vian, a health sector anti-corruption expert who teaches at the University of San Francisco, said powerful people could gain early access to the vaccine not by using bribery or coercion, but through more subtle means, like making requests to similarly powerful friends.

A friend of the leader of a pharmaceutical company, medical distributor, hospital or nursing home could ask if there are any extra doses available, and the leader could ask their assistant to see if they could help. The assistant might then interpret the request as a demand to misappropriate a dose, Vian explained.

“V.I.P. treatment is very common” in the healthcare industry, Vian said.

That’s already happening in California, doctors say, particularly in the entertainment world. Celebrities and executives aren’t badgering their doctors themselves but are instructing their assistants to find out how they can get better treatment.

“Their people are calling me literally every day,” said one doctor who requested anonymity to speak frankly about their clients, many of whom work in Hollywood. “They don’t want to wait. They want to know how they can get it more quickly.”


So this last piece I'm sure is something people here might focus on and so I'm hesitant to post it... but I want to give everyone a little something in this something to chew on.

One thing that I think is mentioned in here that is more to my basic point is... this idea that there are weaknesses inherent in every plan that someone will find a way to exploit... and we just have to identify those and fix them, etc. lol. So... my thing there is YE-AH and you have to really open your eyes up wide to catch things here in California where exploitation and corruption and privilege basically RULES the landscape.

To wit these giant massive catch all areas like EDUCATION and SOCIAL SERVICES and JUSTICE and SAFETY ACTIVITIES. This is the meat of the order in the entrenched California establishment. This is the massive foot soldier system by and for the elites which in itself grants great power and privilege to those within that system.

How about targeting poor neighborhoods? How about taking people in ages starting with the elderly. I certainly get front-line health care workers, and I would add to that everyone who works in a hospital like fucking food preparation and meal delivery to janitorial and just everyone not working from home in the hospital environment. And first responders, be they EMS or police or fire. Nursing home residence and staff.

But fuck man, after that, the fair and smartest thing to do is hit the elderly both rich and poor. I mean, I'm not trying to press some class warfare thing on this. Elderly are most at risk of dying. Vaccinate them and by all means start with the poor.

This is just the start, I'm afraid, of this discussion however. I think the window is opening and we are starting to see how the implementation of getting these vaccines into people's arms is something that could easily open yet another point of contention in our society. Lot's of poor and people of color are suspicious of the vaccine and that might, very sadly, quell or alleviate some of the public outcry over how unfair the allocation of vaccine might end up being. But that shouldn't stop the rest of us from being outraged at what's about to happen.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17


Last edited by jammerbirdi on 01/15/21 8:16 am; edited 7 times in total
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 62934
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 12/18/20 2:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote




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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 12/18/20 6:41 pm    ::: Re: Coronavirus: The Vaccines Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
So... school personnel but not hospital personnel?

We've been told that anybody at my hospital that wants one will get one - essential workers. Got the OK from my doctor today - going to get scheduled ASAP.

I may be able to get it earlier than what I'm scheduled for because if they have doses ready (thawed out, drawn up, whatever) for someone that is either ill on their appointment day or isn't able to be there for some reason, they aren't going to let it go to waste. They will call people in to get it.



_________________
"The biggest antidote to his poison is the vote.” — Nancy Pelosi

"Our democracy is designed to speak truth to power." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

"If this guy can be Senator, you can do anything." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 2485



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PostPosted: 12/18/20 7:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My understanding is that school personnel will get it sooner to keep the schools open. Keeping schools open really isn't my biggest concern when large areas have no ICU beds, but there's a huge clamor about getting kids back in the classroom, probably from the same parents who had a huge family gathering at Thanksgiving or took their kids to a massive soccer tournament.

Where do grocery store workers fall on that schedule? I'd probably put them next after healthcare workers. And I agree on the non-residential social services for the elderly and disabled. This pandemic has been very difficult for those two groups who are at home with minimal support systems already.


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 6886
Location: Heisenberg


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PostPosted: 12/18/20 8:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Scientifically and ethically, vaccine priority should be based solely on risk of death, because 99% of the time contagion without death is, at most, simply a bad cold or average flu. Priority should not be based on hypothetical risks of social proximity to contagion or on political favoritism.

The only "scientific" (i.e., statistical) death risk categorization I've seen are the usual and universal ones of old age and serious comorbidities. Vaccines should be given to these groups first regardless of occupations.

There may be studies showing actual death risk stratification based on occupations, but I've not come across them. I have seen hypothetical risk analyses, which speculate that certain occupations are riskier because people in those occupations have frequent close proximity contact with lots of other people. In these hypothetical studies an occupation like dental hygienist will show as highest risk. However, I'm not aware of controlled studies that show dental hygienists actually dying of Covid at higher rates than other occupations. Or even nurses or doctors, for that matter.

Giving high vaccine priority to educational personnel, whose average age is probably about 45, is mainly a political choice, not a scientific one. Same for firefighters and some other public union groups.

Another factor is that many of the high priority, hypothetically risky occupations are disinclined even to take the vaccine. In a poll of the Hartford Healthcare Network, the first to get vaccine in Connecticut, only 55%-60% of the staff said they would take the vaccine. I saw an article that said 60% of California nurses won't take it. Plainly, big chunks of these front line medical personnel don't see Covid as a mortality risk to themselves sufficient to warrant a needle prick.

Give the vaccine first to the oldest and sickest! Which, sadly and ironically, are also the groups that have been subject to the most social hibernation and outright abandonment.
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 12/18/20 9:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It shouldn't be a government decision. Put the vaccines in the pipeline to the places that normally do vaccinations.

The structure exists to get people vaccinated in large numbers. It happens every year. No reason it can't be just as effective for these vaccines.



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Luuuc
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PostPosted: 12/19/20 12:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
99% of the time contagion without death is, at most, simply a bad cold or average flu.
* [Citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Covid

[ETA] and yes I'll happily take whichever vaccine is made available to me. But hopefully those who need it most will be first in line. Most in need meaning those at greatest risk of severe/fatal symptoms, and those whose absence from work due to sickness would be the most problematic.



_________________
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Yes there's gas in the car.


Last edited by Luuuc on 12/19/20 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total
DivaORcat16



Joined: 13 May 2020
Posts: 25



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PostPosted: 12/19/20 1:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So I voted No, I won't get the vaccine for personal health reasons. I had a SEVERE reaction to the only flu shot I have ever received several years ago and still got the flu that year. But if someone wants to get this vaccine, go for it.

Also, because I believe I already had Covid-19 for 6 weeks in January and February. The fever dreams and hallucinations were the scariest. All the symptoms, never tested, never went to the doctor, not tested for antibodies. I say 6 weeks but realistically it was July before my lungs felt better and I still don't have my taste or smell back to normal.

I know the idea is to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible but I think some sort of lottery system should be used. IF there are limited numbers of doses in an area. Medical workers (hospital staff of all types) nursing home and in-home caregivers WITH COMORBIDITIES, should have top consideration along with 65+. And that would probably be 75% of the medical workers in my area. I can't believe the number of workers at our local hospital who smoke and are OBESE.

And if you've made it through my post- I will say I am overweight, have a Vitamin D deficiency problem, Osteo-arthritis and just found out I have Rosacea. Until this vaccine has been used on a large percentage of the population, I'm out.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 12/19/20 1:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Scientifically and ethically, vaccine priority should be based solely on risk of death, because 99% of the time contagion without death is, at most, simply a bad cold or average flu. Priority should not be based on hypothetical risks of social proximity to contagion or on political favoritism.

The only "scientific" (i.e., statistical) death risk categorization I've seen are the usual and universal ones of old age and serious comorbidities. Vaccines should be given to these groups first regardless of occupations.

There may be studies showing actual death risk stratification based on occupations, but I've not come across them. I have seen hypothetical risk analyses, which speculate that certain occupations are riskier because people in those occupations have frequent close proximity contact with lots of other people. In these hypothetical studies an occupation like dental hygienist will show as highest risk. However, I'm not aware of controlled studies that show dental hygienists actually dying of Covid at higher rates than other occupations. Or even nurses or doctors, for that matter.

Giving high vaccine priority to educational personnel, whose average age is probably about 45, is mainly a political choice, not a scientific one. Same for firefighters and some other public union groups.

Another factor is that many of the high priority, hypothetically risky occupations are disinclined even to take the vaccine. In a poll of the Hartford Healthcare Network, the first to get vaccine in Connecticut, only 55%-60% of the staff said they would take the vaccine. I saw an article that said 60% of California nurses won't take it. Plainly, big chunks of these front line medical personnel don't see Covid as a mortality risk to themselves sufficient to warrant a needle prick.

Give the vaccine first to the oldest and sickest! Which, sadly and ironically, are also the groups that have been subject to the most social hibernation and outright abandonment.


We need to vaccinate healthcare workers first. Their exposure rate is high, we need them to care for everyone else, they still don't have adequate PPE in places, and their death rates, which the CDC is either not following or not releasing, are significant. Other countries have reported excessive death rates in ophthalmologists, to parallel your dental hygienist example. All of the medical people I know are eager to get the vaccine.
US HCWs Lost to Covid19
@CTZebra on Twitter


FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: 12/19/20 1:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

DivaORcat16 wrote:
So I voted No, I won't get the vaccine for personal health reasons. I had a SEVERE reaction to the only flu shot I have ever received several years ago and still got the flu that year. But if someone wants to get this vaccine, go for it.

Also, because I believe I already had Covid-19 for 6 weeks in January and February. The fever dreams and hallucinations were the scariest. All the symptoms, never tested, never went to the doctor, not tested for antibodies. I say 6 weeks but realistically it was July before my lungs felt better and I still don't have my taste or smell back to normal.

I know the idea is to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible but I think some sort of lottery system should be used. IF there are limited numbers of doses in an area. Medical workers (hospital staff of all types) nursing home and in-home caregivers WITH COMORBIDITIES, should have top consideration along with 65+. And that would probably be 75% of the medical workers in my area. I can't believe the number of workers at our local hospital who smoke and are OBESE.

And if you've made it through my post- I will say I am overweight, have a Vitamin D deficiency problem, Osteo-arthritis and just found out I have Rosacea. Until this vaccine has been used on a large percentage of the population, I'm out.


Have you considered having an antibody test done, so you care find out for sure if you're actually immune?


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20862



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PostPosted: 12/21/20 3:45 am    ::: Re: Coronavirus: The Vaccines Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
right there in those few words you are saying that everyone who is connected in the state of California is next up to get these vaccines.


There's is so much to post here in this thread but the weekend eats up my time and energy.

So I did this first post in a burst of whatever possesses me to do things like this and sometimes I look back and realize I maybe didn't make a point as clearly and emphatically as I would have liked. This is one of those points.

So here it is. I don't know how closely anyone will follow this panel's recommendations of who is next up to get coronavirus vaccines. I didn't even know that there was such a thing like this panel making recommendations this late in the game or if they are doing so in any official capacity that bears any weight in the process. And I think therein lies the problem already.

Mystery. The kind of mystery that defines California, a land of many deep secrets. Mystery that has always obscured what people in power are doing just outside of the public's view. And that stuff really isn't in any of the stories in the LATimes. The stories seem to be a presentation of real time public arguments over who should get the next waves of vaccinations.

Like no official body has been thinking of this beforehand and had already made their determinations and those decisions were merely being reported in the paper? No. We seem to be having the discussion now.

So, okay. Here's what I see and the point I was making. In one of those articles, a doctor says something like this, "It turns out about 12.5 million of us have been determined to be essential workers." I'm going by memory but that's pretty close.

What all of this means to me is this. Anyone who has a connection in and to the state of California (meaning public sector jobs working for or directly with the State of California bureaucracy) is going to fall under this massive umbrella of being called essential workers and qualified for getting the vaccine before people who are NOT on the state payroll. I'm sorry. I know my state. This is the concern I'm having.

Think of it as an umbrella. When you add those people to ALL the people who work in education in the state of California? lol. And who, it seems, are ultimately making these decisions? The state of California with an assist from important academic and health sector advisors i.e. the panel.

The potential for abuse here is overwhelming. I mean, if you think peripheral government workers in their 30s getting a vaccine before retirees over 65 is abuse. This is California. This will be a tsunami. Trust me. People who can will take care of themselves. It's a brutal state in that regard and it always has been.

Nothing exemplifies that any more than California state government. The information that's already in the papers creates so much grey area for millions to roll up their sleeves ahead of those who need the vaccine much more and say to each other with a wink, "Essential workers."

Hope I'm wrong, but watch this. I know people here in Cali are already all over this stuff. Half the articles now are on Who Gets the Vaccine. As I said, this topic is where the action is going to be this coming year. There is so much going on around this issue of who gets the vaccine first that I wanted to add three different concurrent controversies to this thread but had too many other things going on this weekend. Real life.

They're coming though. Wink Anyway.



_________________
Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20862



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PostPosted: 12/21/20 4:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So let's start with Nate Silver, who has gotten an embarrassing ass-whupping on Twitter. He has taken data from a paper and misinterpreted it. Then when the paper's author sought to correct and kindly explain that he was mistaken he doubled (at least) down.

Here is a link to a news piece presenting the basics.

Here are some really juicy Twitter threads though.

@ParkerMolloy
·
Dec 19
Nate Silver is a great example of someone smart enough to know that he doesn’t have the expertise necessary to have a worthwhile take on this... and yet... insists on having a take anyway.

https://twitter.com/ParkerMolloy/status/1340448807201497089?s=20

@MaxKennerly
·
Dec 19
Replying to
@BrendanNyhan

@choo_ek
and 2 others
Okay, but full context makes this much worse for Nate Silver.

Jo repeatedly tells Nate he's wrong, including in the discussion with Kevin Drum.

What does Nate do? Ignore Jo completely, repeat his error, and claim public health is all just committee politics.

It's outrageous.


https://twitter.com/MaxKennerly/status/1340514181905346561?s=20

@justkelly_ok

Lmao Nate Silver arguing about vaccine prioritization with the epidemiologist who LITERALLY did the research Nate is citing is....peak Nate Silver

https://twitter.com/justkelly_ok/status/1340534360521363457?s=20

By the way, Jo is the paper's author. Shocked



_________________
Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20862



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PostPosted: 12/21/20 4:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So there was a cold opening last Saturday on SNL with Kate McKinnon as Anthony Fauci. The funniest parts were the quick things she says as Fauci.

The person playing Deborah Birx says, vaccines will be distributed to states in alphabetical order.

To which, Kate's Dr Fauci says, "That's correct. Starting with A-California. A-New York."

Ha ha HA.

Then came this. First up to be vaccinated will be front-line healthcare workers, first responders, prisoners...

I'm like laughing my ass off. That Kate McKinnon, she's so funny. Prisoners! Hahaha.

Well. There's truth in jest after all and, as usual, the joke is on the jammer.

Here is a piece in Sunday's LA Times that is called Haves vs. have-nots: Who ‘deserves’ to be next in line for the COVID-19 vaccine?

So I'm thinking, here we go, this topic is really heating up, etc. And I'm expecting a wide survey of the landscape of this issue. But it's pretty much all about the vaccinating the prison population thing BEFORE... for instance... the really priceless 86 year old retiree upstairs who's just had two heart valve surgeries and is begging us if we know of any way she can get the vaccine.

So I'm worried people are going to run out of free articles on these papers that I'm posting stuff from. And during this DIRE pandemic and given this critical topic area of who among even us here will have access to these truly life saving vaccines... I'm going to quote freely from the articles.

Quote:
And then there are prisoners. Many public health experts and medical ethicists have argued that incarcerated persons should be vaccinated alongside correctional officers, who are likely to get their shots early as members of the “essential critical infrastructure workforce.”

Like the residents of nursing homes, the roughly 2 million people in state and federal prisons and immigration detention centers have no control over the entry of coronavirus into their midst. In crowded lockup conditions, they can’t choose to maintain distance from others to prevent catching the virus. And, like essential workers, they’ve been disproportionately infected when the virus begins circulating within the walls that confine them.

Nationwide, more than 249,000 inmates have tested positive and at least 1,500 have died from COVID-19 since last March.

An effort by UCLA Law School to gauge the pandemic’s impact in the U.S. found that in a nine-week period ending in early June, people incarcerated in state and federal prisons were 5.5 times likelier than the general population to be infected with the coronavirus. After taking account of their age and sex, they also found the nation’s prisoners were three times more likely to die of COVID-19 than those living outside.

Roughly 20 prisons and immigration detention centers have become COVID-19 hot zones, said Sharon Dolovich, a UCLA law professor who directs the school’s COVID-19 Behind Bars Data Project. Prison outbreaks have helped fill rural hospital beds to capacity. Correctional officers move between prisons and communities, sustaining transmission both inside and out.

In September, these vulnerabilities led a panel convened by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine to recommend that prisoners be included in “Phase 2” of the vaccines’ rollout, alongside essential workers, teachers and those with medical conditions that confer a moderate risk of severe COVID-19 illness.

States that have planned to place prison populations in line to get vaccine in the coming three months include California, North Carolina, Maryland, Delaware, Utah, New Mexico, Nebraska, Montana and Massachusetts.

Colorado’s health department also drew up plans to give prisoners priority. But Gov. Jared Polis dismissed the effort to vaccinate incarcerated adults before independently living seniors and adults with serious health conditions.

“There’s no way it’s going to go to prisoners before it goes to people that haven’t committed any crime,” Polis said. “That’s obvious.”

Politicians reared on decades of tough-on-crime rhetoric may find the case for vaccinating prisoners early a tough sell, Dolovich said. But even if they are unpersuaded by compassion for their fellow citizens or their obligation to protect prisoners in their care, she said there are strong public health arguments for ensuring they are vaccinated when the men and women who guard them get theirs.

“It’s a petri dish of infection,” Dolovich said. “If we want to control the spread, we have to recognize that prisons and jails are central sources” of infection that must be tamed.

The debate over prisoners reflects a larger national discussion touched off by the pandemic, said Harald Schmidt, a University of Pennsylvania researcher who studies the interplay between personal responsibility and public health.

In every state, politicians accustomed to disbursing scarce resources in a way that simply maximizes benefits are now facing a decision in which issues of fairness and social justice are expected to get equal billing with the aims of stopping a pandemic and restarting an economy.

That will require a willingness to acknowledge that Americans with special vulnerabilities to COVID-19 — including obesity, smoking, incarceration or poverty — do not bear full responsibility for their risk factors. It is a group’s vulnerability that entitles its members to vaccine priority, not how they got it.

“The penalty we put on people in prison is prison, not that we withdraw healthcare or protections from them,” Schmidt said. “The purpose of an allocation system is not to mete out additional penalties. It’s to stop the pandemic.”




_________________
Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 12/21/20 3:31 pm    ::: Re: Coronavirus: The Vaccines Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
So here it is. I don't know how closely anyone will follow this panel's recommendations of who is next up to get coronavirus vaccines. I didn't even know that there was such a thing like this panel making recommendations this late in the game or if they are doing so in any official capacity that bears any weight in the process. And I think therein lies the problem already.


The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) is a standing multidisciplinary committee of the CDC which evaluates all vaccine programs. They've been evaluating the COVID issue for >6 months, but could not issue formal recommendations until after the FDA did their eval and issued an EUA. ACIP's initial recommendation to the CDC was to vaccinate healthcare personnel and long-term care residents in phase 1a. (They also look at other things like appropriate vac facilities, adverse reactions, etc.)

The CDC has proposed that essential workers (e.g. grocery store and education personnel, as well as police) be vaccinated in Phase 1b. Phase 1c is people >65 years old and people with high risk medical conditions. However, ACIP has not made any formal recommendations yet on 1b and 1c.

After they approve the recommendations, the CDC issues those recs to states, public health programs, etc. However, they are recommendations and are not binding. Any plans to vaccinate school personnel in phase 1a or to vaccinate prisoners did not arise from ACIP...a state or other entity added these things to the mix.

IMHO, this is a huge problem with the process. The CDC should be issuing orders, not recommendations, to ensue uniform administration of vaccines across the country, after its committee of experts has done its due diligence, and we shouldn't be leaving prioritization to someone's opinion in East Podunk.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/index.html


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 12/21/20 5:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yes, frozen, the devil is in the details and, specifically in this case, the thing that stands out to me is the wiggle room that’s provided by the lack of leadership. Again, we’re seeing arguments playing out publicly in the newspapers in real time as the vaccines are actually being administered. That’s both a prescription and a cover for misuse. That really allows the potential for the, how was it put in the LA Times piece on the wealthy trying to buy their way to getting a vaccine?, oh yeah... misappropriation of vaccine doses. In the case of California and the vast public sector footprint the state government has here, the wiggle room that has already been provided combined with this wide ranging discussion of who should get doses, and when they should get them, all playing out live in the newspaper indicates that as we speak vaccines are most like already being administered to those with a questionable place in the queue in terms of true priority based on need or the guidelines.



_________________
Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 12/21/20 7:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Yes, frozen, the devil is in the details and, specifically in this case, the thing that stands out to me is the wiggle room that’s provided by the lack of leadership. Again, we’re seeing arguments playing out publicly in the newspapers in real time as the vaccines are actually being administered. That’s both a prescription and a cover for misuse. That really allows the potential for the, how was it put in the LA Times piece on the wealthy trying to buy their way to getting a vaccine?, oh yeah... misappropriation of vaccine doses. In the case of California and the vast public sector footprint the state government has here, the wiggle room that has already been provided combined with this wide ranging discussion of who should get doses, and when they should get them, all playing out live in the newspaper indicates that as we speak vaccines are most like already being administered to those with a questionable place in the queue in terms of true priority based on need or the guidelines.


As previously noted, irresponsible media coverage has not helped management of this pandemic at all. Tonight's news casually mentioned that "millions" in the US have already taken flights for Christmas vacation, and then crickets. Likewise, we've done nothing to keep the newest strain of the virus out of the US. More crickets. But a story about prisoners gets a lot of press.


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PostPosted: 12/22/20 3:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

STAT Magazine: A side-by-side comparison of the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines

What jumped out at me is that the Moderna dose per person has more than three times as much vaccine as the Pfizer.

Calling around my town to my doctors' offices and pharmacies, no one has vaccine, can't say when they will get it or how it will be allocated. A mystery. Politicians seem to have it delivered to them on a silver platter.
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PostPosted: 12/22/20 6:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silver has antimicrobial properties so that's not such a bad delivery method



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PostPosted: 12/22/20 8:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Calling around my town to my doctors' offices and pharmacies, no one has vaccine, can't say when they will get it or how it will be allocated. A mystery.


They may not know yet themselves. I have a friend who works at a doctor's office on the Island, and while they know they're receiving an allocation, they don't know when they'll get it, but they *do* know that it'll be at least a month before they know. My understanding from her is that nursing homes and hospitals have first dibs, and then her office (and others like it, I presume) will get what they get.



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PostPosted: 12/30/20 9:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Got my first shot today. Arm is beginning to feel a little sore at the injection site. Other than that, so far so good!!!!



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PostPosted: 12/31/20 12:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just when you thought you'd heard it all...

Wisconsin health-care worker ‘intentionally’ spoiled more than 500 coronavirus vaccine doses, hospital says

Quote:
A hospital employee outside Milwaukee deliberately spoiled more than 500 doses of coronavirus vaccine by removing 57 vials from a pharmacy refrigerator, hospital officials announced Wednesday, as local police said they were investigating the incident with the help of federal authorities.

Initiating an internal review on Monday, hospital officials said they were initially “led to believe” the incident was caused by “inadvertent human error." The vials were removed Friday and most were discarded Saturday, with only a few still safe to administer, according to an earlier statement from the health system. Each vial has enough for 10 vaccinations but can sit at room temperature for only 12 hours.

Two days later, the employee acknowledged having “intentionally removed the vaccine from refrigeration,” the hospital, Aurora Medical Center in Grafton, Wis., said in a statement late Wednesday. The employee, who has not been identified, was fired, the hospital said. Its statement did not address the worker’s motives but said “appropriate authorities” were promptly notified.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/12/31/covid-vaccines-destroyed-wisconsin-hospital/


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PostPosted: 12/31/20 1:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And, since I last posted about the role of ACIP, they had another emergency meeting to finalize Phase 1 recommendations.

Quote:
ACIP approved the following recommendations by majority vote (13-1) at its December 20, 2020 emergency meeting.

As an update to ACIP recommendations for vaccination in Phase 1a (health care personnel, and long-term care facility residents), if COVID-19 vaccine supply is limited, the following groups should be offered vaccination:

Phase 1b: persons aged ≥75 years and frontline essential workers [1]

Phase 1c: persons aged 65–74 years, persons aged 16–64 years with high-risk medical conditions, and other essential workers

[1]For purposes of this recommendation, the following essential workers are considered frontline: fire fighters, police officers, corrections officers, food and agricultural workers, Postal Service workers, manufacturing workers, grocery store workers, public transit workers, those who work in the education sector (teachers, and support staff), as well as daycare workers.

These recommendations have been adopted by the CDC Director and will become official once published in MMWR.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/recommendations.html

My take based on various news reports, is that we won't be through with Phase 1a until the end of January at the earliest, and it will take several months to get through 1b, during which time the 1a people as well as a lot of the 1b group will also need their second dose. Phase 1c won't happen until early-mid summer. I hope I'm wrong and things will proceed more quickly but bureaucracy is shooting us in the foot here. I don't think most people, i.e. phase 2 are going to see the vaccine until late summer.


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PostPosted: 12/31/20 1:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yep, I'm quite happy to take the vaccine, in my appropriate turn. I'm 65, with the co-morbidity of type 2 diabetes.

It may be a while, so I'm content to see if the First In Line develop hellacious symptoms like a third eye or hairy palms. Shocked

On a personal level, I believe that those who *pooh-poohed* the entire pandemic as "overrated", "fake", etc., should go to the back of the line and let those who always believed in its seriousness get their vaccines first. Cool



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PostPosted: 12/31/20 2:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Yep, I'm quite happy to take the vaccine, in my appropriate turn. I'm 65, with the co-morbidity of type 2 diabetes.

It may be a while, so I'm content to see if the First In Line develop hellacious symptoms like a third eye or hairy palms. Shocked

On a personal level, I believe that those who *pooh-poohed* the entire pandemic as "overrated", "fake", etc., should go to the back of the line and let those who always believed in its seriousness get their vaccines first. Cool


You already have hairy palms. Wink



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PostPosted: 12/31/20 5:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Yep, I'm quite happy to take the vaccine, in my appropriate turn. I'm 65, with the co-morbidity of type 2 diabetes.

It may be a while, so I'm content to see if the First In Line develop hellacious symptoms like a third eye or hairy palms. Shocked

On a personal level, I believe that those who *pooh-poohed* the entire pandemic as "overrated", "fake", etc., should go to the back of the line and let those who always believed in its seriousness get their vaccines first. Cool


It's been about 31 hours for me. My arm only hurts a little when I press on the injection site. No pain on movement, no redness, no welt, nothing. If I had been in a trial, I'd be convinced that I got the placebo. My flu shot hurt way more and my first shingles vaccine had way more side effects.

Of the 4 or 5 people that I've talked to about their shot, only one had any side effects. Her arm really hurt (to the point of taking pain reliever), had a welt for about a week and still has some bruising/discoloration at the site almost two weeks later.

Hang in there Howie. It seems like a lot of eligible people aren't getting one (healthcare workers), so you might move up faster than you think.



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