RebKell's Junkie Boards

[jammerbirdi]

Okay, comrade. No one is harmed in the Great Enlightenment. As we imagine it. Because those driving it are, we must never forget, benevolent. Great helpful light-bearing soldiers of fairness and goodness. Sure. What was I thinking?

[norwester]

I think a comment I just put on another thread has bearing here: every group has assholes and sweethearts.

The ideal of enlightenment is a benevolent one. A worthy goal to strive for.

The way people will take anything and use it to browbeat another person is one of the darkest parts of being human, and I feel like one of those aspects that enlightment tries to move past (not always successfully).

The way people extrapolate one or two public incidents to paint an entire ideology in a certain way is puzzling.

This recipe looks delicious.
Biscuits & Gravy Bake

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Don't you know the plural of "anecdote" is "data"?

[jammerbirdi]

[Howee]

Norwester, I always enjoy your refreshing 'enlightenment'.

But. THIS just took me down a rabbit hole I did NOT see coming.

[justintyme]

[jammerbirdi]

[justintyme]

[GlennMacGrady]

As the latest exemplar, avatar and vulgar of political correctness, let's consider Mayor Jim Kenney of Philadelphia.

A guy in Muslim-like garb runs up to a lone policeman in a police cruiser and fires 13 bullets at him at point blank range, an obvious assassination or execution attempt. Shot three times, the brave cop exits his unit, pursues the felon and manages to wing him. Later captured, the shooter confesses on video tape.

At the press conference, the Philadelphia Police Commissioner says the suspect:

"confessed to committing this cowardly act in the name of Islam. According to him he believes that the police defend laws that are contrary to the teachings of the Koran.”

Providing additional details, a Philadelphia Police captain says:

"He stated that he pledges his allegiance to Islamic State, he follows Allah, and that is the reason he was called upon to do this."

Despite this clear confessional evidence, Mayor Kenney -- who presumably is a psychic as well as a Koranic scholar -- stands up and astonishingly declaims:

“In no way shape or form does anyone in this room believe that Islam or the teaching of Islam has anything to do with what you’ve seen on the screen. That is abhorrent. It’s just terrible and it does not represent this religion in any way shape or form or any of its teachings. And this is a criminal with a stolen gun who tried to kill one of our officers. It has nothing to do with being a Muslim or following the Islamic faith.”

Let's take a wild guess as to what political party Kenney belongs to.

The more serious aspect to Kenney's politically correct lunacy is that he is the governmental boss of the Philadelphia police department, which is charged with investigating the sources of the crime and keeping citizens safe from repetitions of it. Kenney, in essence, is preemptively declaring that it would be off-limits for the police to investigate Islamic connections to this crime. Of course, no right thinking law enforcement officer will pay any attention to the PC brain damaged mayor.

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/MagicBusBasketball

[Howee]

Hypothetical:
A Westside Baptist member sneaks up on a gay police officer and beats him nearly to death. When apprehended, the culprit declares he's done it in the name of Christianity, for Jesus.

[sambista]

[PUmatty]

[TonyL222]

I have had to make this point about people like the members of Westboro on many occasions. Just because someone professes to do something "in the name of" a religion doesn't mean their actions are in line with the teachings of that religions.

The one caveat I add about Islam is that there seems to be a very LARGE proportion who interpret the radical actions to be in line with Islam.

[mercfan3]

[Howee]

[TonyL222]

[Howee]

[pilight]

[jammerbirdi]

[justintyme]

[norwester]

I've actually tried to educate myself more on the hijab (more than the burka/burqa) and what it means to Muslim women. There are probably as many different sects of Islam as there are of Christianity (I say probably because I don't know for a fact). I think what we see most prominently are those sects that have taken over the ruling class of countries (Iran, Saudi Arabia in the late 70s/early 80s). And that skews our views of things.

I found this article in WaPo instructive about that.
The United States shouldn’t take sides in the Sunni-Shiite struggle

Meanwhile, back to the hijab. It's an interesting question to me, particularly when we start talking about Muslim-Americans. I've long had a knee-jerk derision reaction that I'm still exploring when I see a woman in a hijab. But if she had freely chosen to do so, then I should have no problem with that. Right? But the more I try to tease out the "right" or "wrong" of it, the more I realize that I'm just ignorant? Or may never understand? Or something. Some women like it. Some women like it and browbeat other women who don't wear it (annoying). Some reject it as a symbol of oppression.

Statistically, Muslim-Americans are either more likely to be tolerant of other religions, etc. than those practicing other American religions, or fall right in line with with Christians in America.

Here's an opinion piece in which a woman exhorts her community to not make hijab synonymous with Muslim woman.
The Problem With Being First: The Dangers Behind Being the Token Hijabi

Here's a WaPo article that points out that wearing the hijab stems from a very conservative interpretation of the religion, and details efforts of Muslim women in reclaim their religion from that interpretation.
As Muslim women, we actually ask you not to wear the hijab in the name of interfaith solidarity

So, I don't know. I'm sure the one or two people who actually read this whole post think I've wandered off topic (typically).

TL;DR: we get a skewed view of Islam from the media. There are Muslim women that we can all agree are amazing (e.g. Malala), so I don't think it's the religion, per se, but rather how very conservative sects practice it.

_________________
Don't you know the plural of "anecdote" is "data"?

[norwester]

Thanks for posting that CNN article, justintyme. I'd read it, but then couldn't remember where, and when I looked for it for my post I went down a hijab rabbit hole instead!

_________________
Don't you know the plural of "anecdote" is "data"?

[pilight]

A hijab is no more repressive than a tichel or a wimple.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a religion that tells people they have to cover their head. The problems arise when it becomes a crime against the state instead of an affront to God.

_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home

[jammerbirdi]

So your response is based on a survey is that Muslims in America are MORE progressive on the place (or status) of women in society than are Americans? That would be what I would refer to as misleading data. Distorted would be a gross understatement.

The burka worn in America or anywhere in the West is an affront to the progress that has been made for women everywhere, but most certainly here IN the West. It signifies a rejection of not just modern ideals but of the RIGHTS and EQUALITY of women.

I grew up in a town that was thought of (quite accurately) as a melting pot. Growing up in the 1960s, most of the kids I knew, either their parents or grandparents, were from the old country. Wherever that may have been. Mostly Italy. Plenty from Serbia. Greece. Poland. Ukraine.

I would say a slight majority of the kids... THEN... were a complete typical American 1960s and 70s cultural rejection of the old country thinking that they endured or enjoyed at home.

I say enjoyed because almost as many, however, were kind of like weird. We thought so, anyway. If you've seen a movie like Marny with Ernest Borgnine in the title role that was kind of like who those kids were. Square. Not modern in dress. Attitudes not in line with most of the prevailing winds of that generation. Etc.

When we grew up into adults, those of us who were really OF that generation, progressive, forward thinking, hippyish, rock n' rollers, were really finally adults and in total control of our own world view. We pushed OUR way of thinking and OUR attitudes towards equality, love and living arrangements, personal freedoms, so many things forward and into the American social fabric. We tried, anyway.

But, depending on where you were in this country, you still dealt with old country people. They owned many businesses and, in just one example, buildings that you had to rent apartments in. I remember... when, in Aliquippa, the older man from Greece who rented us our first apartment realized that me and mrs jammer were NOT married and were going to be living together in his beautiful new apartment building. It became an ugly thing and we moved as soon as our lease was up.

But the same thing happened on the second apartment. He too was Greek. These guys would take one look at mrs jammer and practically sign her name to the lease themselves. But then I came into focus and well...

Third apartment, the one we lived in for many years before moving to Cali, was owned by an Italian. All of these guys, every one of them, thick accents, all born in Europe. He wasn't happy about our modern living arrangement. He never said two words to me and we lived above the garage in back of his house for years. lol. But we all got past it.

So your survey says attitudes towards the place and status of women in America leave something to be desired? I would say that is because there will be for a long time residual attitudes that you can trace back those who came (and come) here from countries with vastly different attitudes towards women.

This doesn't change the realities of the Islamic faith and the attitudes of its followers towards women and the place of women or the progress of women in the West. You can believe and promote any thing that you want. The old line about you don't have a right to your own truths is incorrect. We can all find truths and turn up the complexity or turn it down as needed to basic and simplistic, whatever we need, to allow those truths to make perfect sense.

As an American of my generation, as a person who first rejected organized religion and then finally the entire notion of an all powerful spirit being controlling everything, in favor of the material and physical world and human rights and freedoms, I'm calling bullshit here on Islam and people on the Left promoting tolerance of Islam. To have grown up in a world imprinted by the beliefs and backwards attitudes of people from other places, to have experience the long rush of freedom and progress FROM all of that, (although sometimes interrupted and many times reminded of it) to see this part of the progressive agenda that defends Islam is disheartening to say the least.

Muslim women wearing burkas in the West is an EXTREMELY clear indicator of that religion's attitudes towards the place of women in society and anyone who suggests otherwise is either in denial or is an enabler of the subordination of the female gender. Someone else said this and I totally agree but for anyone to express tolerance and acceptance of that doesn't demonstrate progressive ideals or thought, it's akin to being accepting and welcoming to and of a culture that keeps slaves. It is a CLEAR rejection of modernity. Not the only one, mind you, in the world of religiosity, but it is what it is. IMO.

[norwester]

But I wasn't talking about burkas. I agree with you that they're a rather ridiculously obvious opression.

They're also not common in the US.

_________________
Don't you know the plural of "anecdote" is "data"?

[jammerbirdi]