| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
 Posted: 08/17/15 8:04 pm ::: |
Reply  |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
Being sympathetic to undocumented workers is not synonymous with believing in open borders.
People can believe in strong (humane) border security while also believing that we should treat those that do make it here with compassion. |
People can also believe that those people are illegally here and should be sent back and that they shouldn't be able to exploit things like anchor babies, etc. to stay in the US. I hope you would allow that many of your fellow Americans, maybe especially those who make less than 50K a year and who didn't go to college, can believe those things as well and also be free to articulate them and vote accordingly without being dismissed as loonies or denigrated as xenophobes and racists.
| justintyme wrote: |
| And I think that is what the polls reflect. Not everyone may understand exactly what things like amnesty or path to citizenship mean exactly in a political sense, but people are also not stupid. People grasp concepts of equality and fairness without having to pay attention to whatever buzzword or legal terminology is floating about. |
Who's not stupid, who is stupid? You're the one setting the criteria there according to concepts that you believe people should grasp such as equality and fairness and what's at stake is whether you're going to pronounce them stupid or not. The truth is that stupidity is a variable. It's there. (To channel once again, The Donald) Trust me.
| justintyme wrote: |
| The reality is, most people in the US know someone, or work with someone, who is an undocumented alien. |
No. That's not reality. And what you mean is they know that the person is an illegal? No. Noop. Sorry.
| Quote: |
| So even though they are concerned with their own well being, they too can empathize with another human being's struggle. |
Mmmm. This is going to be harder than I thought.
| Quote: |
| And I would disagree that liberals care more for the plight of undocumented workers than they do for the poor white/black peoples of the world. I would say they care about both. Liberals have been working to increase minimum wages, insure health care, expand welfare programs, set new overtime thresholds, strengthen unions, increase Wall Street regulations, and a slew of other programs directed at reducing poverty and shrinking the wealth gap. |
Somewhere I've heard that bolded point before. I'm not picking on anyone. But I think the admission we got here last week from someone near and dear is pretty typical. That's what I believe anyway.
Regarding programs.
Yes. Those are all things they've been doing for decades upon decades. Sounds like Kennedy and Johnson's politics. They're on the approved list of where the struggle should be. And when you and I are dead and gone they will still be being squabbled over by rich people who exist on an entirely different wavelength, caught up in their own lives of affluence and enlightenment, with wholesale selling out of the lower and working classes being just as long standing status quo as all these largely ineffective initiatives. Who is to say those things represent the answer anyway?
| Quote: |
| Animals in Africa get headlines for a day or week or month, and then fade back into the ethers. It gets a lot of attention because it is sensational, and we are drawn to sensational things. But that is all it is: flash paper. Burns brilliantly for a second then fades to smoke. And then these liberals return to their daily fight for better wages, control of their own bodies, etc. In a year, how many people will still be talking about Cecil the Lion? I bet it is a fraction of the people calling daily for higher wages and better welfare programs... |
Liberals are such benevolent creatures aren't they? lol. They will return to their daily fight for better wages, etc.  Okay. If you say so._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
Last edited by jammerbirdi on 08/17/15 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9634
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 8:17 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
The poll numbers suggest that most people don't care about undocumented workers. They care that these people pay taxes and are not a burden on our society, so the fact that they are "workers" makes them shrug. That is why the majority of Americans, and the vast, vast majority of non-conservatives (so liberals and independents) favor amnesty or "path to citizenship" policies, like when Obama issued the SS numbers to undocumented aliens. |
I don't think they care about them paying taxes because that would cause them to have to focus on how does someone here illegally pay taxes? They can pay sales tax and their landlord can pay property tax on their behalf (which won't equal the amount of kids they send to the schools not speaking English), but they won't be paying social security or income taxes. People like to claim they do, but if you could hire illegals and just have them make up SSN numbers and then do payroll deductions to fraudulent SSN numbers, then it would be essentially legal to hire illegals. The federal government would know - via the fraudulent numbers - exactly who was hiring the illegals. If that is the case, it certainly wouldn't be hard to stop illegal immigration if we ever chose to.
|
|
tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9634
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 8:27 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
That's what I was getting at. The vast majority of aliens who come here are just trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. It is very easy to be sympathetic to that. That they have to break the law to do it means the law is in error, not the immigrants. |
That logic could be applied to Mafia members and drug dealers. They are breaking the law, but just trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. Therefore the laws against extortion and illegal gambling and illegal sales of narcotics is in error.
But it could be argued that the negatives of an infinite illegal immigration are not that different than the negatives of an infinite legal immigration. But to me, that is an argument against legal immigration.
Last edited by tfan on 08/17/15 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 8:27 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
The poll numbers suggest that most people don't care about undocumented workers. They care that these people pay taxes and are not a burden on our society, so the fact that they are "workers" makes them shrug. That is why the majority of Americans, and the vast, vast majority of non-conservatives (so liberals and independents) favor amnesty or "path to citizenship" policies, like when Obama issued the SS numbers to undocumented aliens. |
I don't think they care about them paying taxes because that would cause them to have to focus on how does someone here illegally pay taxes? They can pay sales tax and their landlord can pay property tax on their behalf (which won't equal the amount of kids they send to the schools not speaking English), but they won't be paying social security or income taxes. People like to claim they do, but if you could hire illegals and just have them make up SSN numbers and then do payroll deductions to fraudulent SSN numbers, then it would be essentially legal to hire illegals. The federal government would know - via the fraudulent numbers - exactly who was hiring the illegals. If that is the case, it certainly wouldn't be hard to stop illegal immigration if we ever chose to. |
Every single one that worked with me had a fake SSN. The place I worked was a national corporation and required all workers to have one. It is not hard to obtain these, if you know where to look...and believe me, they know where to look.
While I don't doubt some of the smaller companies and less scrupulous general contractors out there hire undocumented workers, that is more the exception than the norm. The majority work and pay taxes, including things like FICA which they will never see a dime in return from.
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9634
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 8:54 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
The poll numbers suggest that most people don't care about undocumented workers. They care that these people pay taxes and are not a burden on our society, so the fact that they are "workers" makes them shrug. That is why the majority of Americans, and the vast, vast majority of non-conservatives (so liberals and independents) favor amnesty or "path to citizenship" policies, like when Obama issued the SS numbers to undocumented aliens. |
I don't think they care about them paying taxes because that would cause them to have to focus on how does someone here illegally pay taxes? They can pay sales tax and their landlord can pay property tax on their behalf (which won't equal the amount of kids they send to the schools not speaking English), but they won't be paying social security or income taxes. People like to claim they do, but if you could hire illegals and just have them make up SSN numbers and then do payroll deductions to fraudulent SSN numbers, then it would be essentially legal to hire illegals. The federal government would know - via the fraudulent numbers - exactly who was hiring the illegals. If that is the case, it certainly wouldn't be hard to stop illegal immigration if we ever chose to. |
Every single one that worked with me had a fake SSN. The place I worked was a national corporation and required all workers to have one. It is not hard to obtain these, if you know where to look...and believe me, they know where to look. |
How did you find out they were illegal? So if what you are saying is true (and I have my doubts), then the federal government knowingly lets of employers hire illegals. Which would raise the question - why do we pay people to patrol the borders when it is legal to hire illegals, or it is illegal to hire illegals but it isn't enforced? And why do they occasionally raid businesses for hiring illegals?
And it would also mean that people like yourself are incorrectly using the term "undocumented". It should be "illegally documented".
| Quote: |
While I don't doubt some of the smaller companies and less scrupulous general contractors out there hire undocumented workers, that is more the exception than the norm. The majority work and pay taxes, including things like FICA which they will never see a dime in return from. |
Is it really scrupulous to hire illegals that have fake social security numbers? One of the reasons that we have immigration laws is to protect American workers from a damaging supply/demand situation. One that lowers wages and ends up causing people to cry for a higher minimum wage - since low wages aren't increasing organically due to an oversupply of workers.
Last edited by tfan on 08/17/15 9:00 pm; edited 5 times in total |
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 8:54 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| People can also believe that those people are illegally here and should be sent back and that they shouldn't be able to exploit things like anchor babies, etc. to stay in the US. |
Yes people can also believe this. But what we were talking about is how most people feel. And the polls have been very clear about that. The majority of Americans don't feel that way about this issue...
| Quote: |
| Who's not stupid, who is stupid? You're the one setting the criteria there according to concepts that you believe people should grasp such as equality and fairness and what's at stake is whether you're going to pronounce them stupid or not. The truth is that stupidity is a variable. It's there. (To channel once again, The Donald) Trust me. |
It has been proven that human beings are born with an understanding of the concept of fairness and equality. My point is that it doesn't take a degree in law or political science--or even a high school diploma--to understand and care about these things. So yes, even though people might not all grasp the concepts of "amnesty", when you ask them if we should deport someone who has committed no other crime than immigrating illegally, but who has been here paying taxes and working their butts off for a decade, they say "no".
| Quote: |
| No. That's not reality. And what you mean is they know that the person is an illegal? No. Noop. Sorry. |
I don't have figures on this, so I cannot state this as empirical fact. But from my own experiences, anyone who has worked in fast food, casual dining, fine dining, janitorial/custodial work, construction, or a ton of other low education fields, has absolutely worked with someone who is here illegally, and unless they have an utter lack of awareness, they know this to be the case. It is not really a secret...
| Quote: |
| Liberals are such benevolent creatures aren't they? lol. They will return to their daily fight for better wages, etc. Okay. If you say so. |
You seem to equate vocal outrage as "caring" about things. I disagree. Vocal outrage is a useful tool when trying to change people's immediate behavior. You don't want people poaching/trophy hunting? Attach social consequences. This doesn't work for other issues. Some issues you have to put your nose to the grindstone and attempt to change at the policy level. There is no quick and sexy fix. There is no immediate consequence to apply. Fixing these issues involves trench warfare. It involves changing some ingrained capitalistic ideologies. This is a fight measured in inches, not retweets.
But it should be no surprise that issues do blow up. It is nice to be able to have easy victories sometimes. But the work people do day in and day out seems more indicative of the things they truly care about than the things that they express moral outrage over and then forget about the next day.
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:03 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| tfan wrote: |
| How did you find out they were illegal? |
You talk to them. You talk to them about their families. You become friends with them. And occasionally, one stops showing up because they got pulled over for speeding or something and discovered to be illegal. But as I said elsewhere, it's not really a secret in these fields.
| Quote: |
| Is it really scrupulous to hire illegals that have fake social security numbers? One of the reasons that we have immigration laws is to protect American workers from a damaging supply/demand situation. |
I call them unscrupulous because they hire undocumented workers so that they can pay them less than minimum wage, not have to worry about worker's comp or OSHA regulations, or things like FMLA or ADA.
Those are on a whole 'nother level than some "supply/demand" numbers that do not actually add up.
The fact is, although she was inelequent in the way she said it, Kelly Osborne was right. Most undocumented workers fill jobs that our society needs but that Americans do not want to do.
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:11 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
So the question is why is Trump having the sustained moment that he is? And I've got to say, I don't even have to try to come up with the answer. Like actually think about it at all. I totally get Trump and what his appeal is and who is susceptible to his whiles and why they are susceptible. You'd have to see my Facebook feed for a hint as to why.
So let me start with one thing. Chris Matthews. If you would kindly remember 2008 around here and I would be even more happy that you might not you might recall that I don't like Chris Matthews at all. Horrible show. Horrible affect. Was (self) important enough that he had the power to cut MSNBC's coverage of Al Sharpton's convention speech in 2008, angrily, because he deemed it to be demagoguery.
I really don't like Chris Matthews. Okay. Said that, jammer. So he told this story about two weeks ago in answering Joe's question as to why Trump has struck a chord with so many Americans. And I so GOT this anecdote that I recorded it and will transcribe it for you right now.
"I think it is really a deep kind of patriotism. I told this story the other night on my show. When I was working as a Capitol cop, as was (Mike) Barnacle, you meet a lot of West Virginia guys, country guys, guys that didn't go to college. And [this fellow cop] took me under his wing. Leroy Taylor. I'm the college kid and he calls me aside and says, Chris... you know why the little man loves this country? Because it's all he's got. And the regular guy out there who didn't go to college and doesn't have a fancy home or a big fancy family, no fancy home or a vacation home or anything really... all he has is his flag. And HE feels that he's been betrayed. He feels that nobody is looking out for his borders and nobody is looking out for the debt, nobody's looking out for his jobs, that we're selling them off to foreign countries, we're not even looking out for who comes into his country, when you walk into this country, you don't even have to be an American. He's an American and he says, nobody is even looking out for my Americanism anymore. And Trump has got to that. That sense of betrayal. Some people call it contempt. And he says it in a way that people get it. It's raw. And he's not a perfect vessel. But he knows how to talk and I thought last night [at the debate] he said something very honest about the immigration issue, he said if I wasn't here, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Illegal immigration. Not undocumented workers, not all the euphemisms we grow up with, all the political correctness... Nobody believes the politicians are going to fix the problem. The Republicans represent the business guys who want the cheap labor that is coming over the border tomorrow night. Not last week. Freshest, cheapest, hardest working people. And the Democrats, let's face it, want the votes."
Anyway. There is a growing mass of people who you can't really think anymore are Tea Party activists who used to be Deficit Hawks etc. All on the dole of the Koch Brothers. What's happened is that the followers, the working class who bought into all that Fox News was selling over the years are beginning, maybe, to come to the end of that part of their political alliances. I'm not suggesting they're more educated or sophisticated than they are but I do think they're starting to learn that the Republican Party and the Right Wing establishment actually isn't looking out for them.
And again, I say this for the fourth time or so. People fear political correctness. As they should. And they desperately want to see someone who can't be brought down by uttering what most people would think of as offensive politically unacceptable stuff. Trump is like a perfect combination of a couple of things that are touching something very deep in Americans right now. And I will say this for the umpteenth time... they SHOULD be alarmed and touched by someone saying some of the things, and more, that Donald Trump is saying. Because Americans are getting screwed. They've been sold out. They KNOW it. You might not know it if you're doing okay. You might be worried about the children of illegal immigrants or lions or something._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:12 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| tfan wrote: |
| That logic could be applied to Mafia members and drug dealers. They are breaking the law, but just trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. Therefore the laws against extortion and illegal gambling and illegal sales of narcotics is in error. |
Sure, you could apply that logic, but it would be a fallacy to do so...
This is a monster case of false equivalency. It would be like saying speeding and murder, since both are crimes, should be treated the same.
In pilights example the people are performing actions that are otherwise legal--in fact they are actions that society commends--but because of who they are it becomes illegal.
In the other example, these actions are all illegal no matter who performs them.
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9634
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:15 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| How did you find out they were illegal? |
You talk to them. You talk to them about their families. You become friends with them. And occasionally, one stops showing up because they got pulled over for speeding or something and discovered to be illegal. But as I said elsewhere, it's not really a secret in these fields. |
What kind of job are you supposed to be doing that has a lot of illegals with fake social security numbers who don't speak English?
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| Is it really scrupulous to hire illegals that have fake social security numbers? One of the reasons that we have immigration laws is to protect American workers from a damaging supply/demand situation. |
I call them unscrupulous because they hire undocumented workers so that they can pay them less than minimum wage, not have to worry about worker's comp or OSHA regulations, or things like FMLA or ADA.
Those are on a whole 'nother level than some "supply/demand" numbers that do not actually add up. |
And what doesn't add up about supply/demand in the marketplace? Is supply/demand of workers different than supply/demand of houses? Or land? Have you heard anyone call for artificially raising the minimum wage lately?
| Quote: |
The fact is, although she was ineloquent in the way she said it, Kelly Osborne was right. Most undocumented workers fill jobs that our society needs but that Americans do not want to do. |
The only way we would know that Americans won't do them is if we stop illegal immigration. And if a job won't exist because people are unwilling to pay more money than what is demanded by an illegal flood of people from a poor country, then it isn't a job that society needs.
Somehow, miraculous as it might seem, people do those same jobs in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Norway, etc., without a flood of illegals from Mexico.
The Dirty Jobs show couldn't show illegals doing dirty jobs. All of those dirty jobs were done by Americans who spoke English.
Last edited by tfan on 08/17/15 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9634
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:22 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| That logic could be applied to Mafia members and drug dealers. They are breaking the law, but just trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. Therefore the laws against extortion and illegal gambling and illegal sales of narcotics is in error. |
Sure, you could apply that logic, but it would be a fallacy to do so...
This is a monster case of false equivalency. It would be like saying speeding and murder, since both are crimes, should be treated the same.
In pilights example the people are performing actions that are otherwise legal--in fact they are actions that society commends--but because of who they are it becomes illegal.
In the other example, these actions are all illegal no matter who performs them. |
The equivalence is that both are illegal acts and both have their sympathizers (not for extortion). Just as you can have sympathy for illegal aliens by pretending there are no victims in their activity and only focus on lower market wages being paid by employers, you can have sympathy for drug dealers and Mafia members by pretending that there are no victims in gambling and drug sales and only focus on the fun that people can have doing both.
If illegal immigration is a victimless crime then why do we have immigration laws? Why don't we open the borders and increase the benefits of population growth and more workers to the max?
Last edited by tfan on 08/17/15 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:30 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| tfan wrote: |
| What kind of job are you supposed to be doing that has a lot of illegals with fake social security numbers who don't speak English? |
I worked in the food industry. I was a bartender and a sizable portion of our kitchen/janitorial staff was made up of undocumented aliens. This was a large national chain, and from talking to others was not unique in the industry.
| Quote: |
| Have you heard anyone call for raising the minimum wage lately? |
Uh, yeah? We just raised it here in Minnesota, and linked it to automatically rise with inflation.
| Quote: |
The only way we would know that Americans won't do them is if we stop illegal immigration. And if a job won't exist because people are unwilling to pay more money than what is demanded by an illegal flood of people from a poor country, then it isn't a job that society needs.
Somehow, miraculous as it might seem, people do those same jobs in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Norway, etc., without a flood of illegals from Mexico.
The Dirty Jobs show couldn't show illegals doing dirty jobs. All of those dirty jobs were done by Americans who spoke English. |
That isn't how labor markets work...
First off, we know Americans won't do them because these positions remain unfilled even when there is heavy unemployment. Yes, as Dirty Jobs shows, there are Americans who are willing to do them, but not as many as there are jobs to fill.
And these other countries also have jobs filled by undocumented workers. You think America is the only one in the world with this issue? But those countries are also not the size of America, they aren't on the same scale.
As for the jobs existing? I am not sure what you are suggesting. We are talking minimum wage jobs here, not sub-minimum. And these jobs form a foundation for our way of life. Not to mention our economy...
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
Last edited by justintyme on 08/17/15 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:35 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| People can also believe that those people are illegally here and should be sent back and that they shouldn't be able to exploit things like anchor babies, etc. to stay in the US. |
Yes people can also believe this. But what we were talking about is how most people feel. And the polls have been very clear about that. The majority of Americans don't feel that way about this issue... |
I'm sorry. I don't believe that either. And save your poll. This couldn't possibly be a issue where a poll that produced the conclusion that 'the majority of Americans" feel that those who use an anchor baby after coming here illegally should be allowed to stay wouldn't be fraught with issues.
I don't believe there is any way a poll that probes the public for an answer to this question doesn't skew away from the working poor, who likely aren't home answering their phones, working classes, who don't want to be bothered with annoying phone calls from pollsters and aren't, studies have shows, at all comfortable sharing their political beliefs with strangers, etc. and that that skewing away from working class opinions hasn't taken whatever poll you are citing to the point of reflecting numbers that suggest something other than what might very well be the actual reality.
(Let ME say, right now, that I believe that anyone who came here poor and desperate and here now and working, anchor baby or NO, should be allowed to stay. That's MY belief, just in case anyone might be starting to wonder. I believe we can easily absorb what we have and prosper. And, unlike Bush, I don't believe in penalties and fines and shit like that.)_________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:38 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| tfan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| That logic could be applied to Mafia members and drug dealers. They are breaking the law, but just trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. Therefore the laws against extortion and illegal gambling and illegal sales of narcotics is in error. |
Sure, you could apply that logic, but it would be a fallacy to do so...
This is a monster case of false equivalency. It would be like saying speeding and murder, since both are crimes, should be treated the same.
In pilights example the people are performing actions that are otherwise legal--in fact they are actions that society commends--but because of who they are it becomes illegal.
In the other example, these actions are all illegal no matter who performs them. |
The equivalence is that both are illegal acts and both have their sympathizers (not for extortion). Just as you can have sympathy for illegal aliens by pretending there are no victims in their activity and only focus on lower market wages being paid by employers, you can have sympathy for drug dealers and Mafia members by pretending that there are no victims in gambling and drug sales and only focus on the fun that people can have doing both.
If illegal immigration is a victimless crime then why do we have immigration laws? Why don't we open the borders and increase the benefits of population growth and more workers to the max? |
Yes, they are all illegal acts and have sympathizers. But that is the extent of their equivalence. A fallacy of false equivalency is when two things that share one or two particular traits are treated as being the same.
Here we have two illegal acts that are clearly not of the same order of magnitude.
So the question at hand, is not whether we should open our borders, but how we should treat those who are here already.
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:43 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
So the question at hand, is not whether we should open our borders, but how we should treat those who are here already. |
Actually the border question is in play as much as anything else. If the border wasn't already open (enough) we wouldn't have to grapple with how we should treat those who are already here. And we shouldn't forget for a minute that those questions will include what to do with those who are coming across tonight, tomorrow, next week, next month, and for the coming decades. So... what's the question at hand again?_________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
|
tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9634
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:47 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| What kind of job are you supposed to be doing that has a lot of illegals with fake social security numbers who don't speak English? |
| Quote: |
| Have you heard anyone call for raising the minimum wage lately? |
Uh, yeah? We just raised it here in Minnesota, and linked it to automatically rise with inflation. |
The point was - wages would rise organically if we didn't have a never-ending surplus of workers streaming in. And if raising the minimum wage doesn't hurt the total employment, then it should be raised to 50,000 or 100,000, not 20,000.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
The only way we would know that Americans won't do them is if we stop illegal immigration. And if a job won't exist because people are unwilling to pay more money than what is demanded by an illegal flood of people from a poor country, then it isn't a job that society needs.
Somehow, miraculous as it might seem, people do those same jobs in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Norway, etc., without a flood of illegals from Mexico.
The Dirty Jobs show couldn't show illegals doing dirty jobs. All of those dirty jobs were done by Americans who spoke English. |
That isn't how labor markets work...
First off, we know Americans won't do them because these positions remain unfilled even when there is heavy unemployment. Yes, as Dirty Jobs shows, there are Americans who are willing to do them, but not as many as there are jobs to fill. |
What period have we had heavy unemployment and no illegal immigration? How could the jobs be unfilled if we have a steady stream of illegals coming in? Did the illegals refuse to do them as well?
One of the examples of how illegals have hurt the labor market is how people are dropping out of the market after not being able to get a job in their golden years after several years of unsuccessful looking. When I was young, the janitors at my high school and college and first job were old men and woman who had slowed down and taken jobs as janitors. They hadn't been janitors their whole life but due to the affects of age they had taken them to finish out their career. Now you see illegals working as janitors. Employers have a choice between a 60 year old American man or woman or a 30 year old Mexican. The American loses out and has to cut back on their standard of living and people celebrate the Mexican who has come over to do a job that "Americans just won't do".
| Quote: |
And these other countries also have jobs filled by undocumented workers. You think America is the only one in the world with this issue? But those countries are also not the size of America, they aren't on the same scale. |
None of those countries have a long border with a poor country. Australia doesn't even have a border with a country. They can only get illegals by them coming as tourists and overstaying their visa. Which greatly limits how many they can get.
"As of 30 June 2010, DIAC estimated that the number of visa overstayers in Australia was around 53,900, or 0.2 per cent of the Australian population"
The US estimates for illegals are from 11.5 (PEW 2005) to 22 million. That is 3.6 to 7%. So the US has 18 to 35 times as many illegals in terms of proportion of the population as Australia does. And Australia, from all reports, is doing OK.
| Quote: |
As for the jobs existing? I am not sure what you are suggesting. We are talking minimum wage jobs here, not sub-minimum. And these jobs form a foundation for our way of life. Not to mention our economy... |
If people won't pay for the jobs unless they can pay an artificially low wage rate due to an oversupply of labor from an endless stream of illegals from a poor country - then it isn't an important job. It can be eliminated and we will be fine. If it is a necessary job, then the wage will rise because people will be willing to pay more in order to attract non-illegal labor.
Last edited by tfan on 08/18/15 12:01 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:51 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
And I have another question for you, justintyme. What are they all going to do with us?_________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
|
jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 9:55 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| tfan wrote: |
If people won't pay for the jobs unless they can pay an artificially low wage rate due to an oversupply of labor from an endless stream of illegals from a poor country - then it isn't an important job. It can be eliminated and we will be fine. If it is a necessary job, then the wage will rise because people will be willing to pay more in order to attract non-illegal labor.
|
 _________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/17/15 10:14 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
An interesting tidbit from a look at Pollster's polling averages for 2012 and this year:
In 2012, Mitt Romney led the Republicans most of the way, never was worse than 2nd, never had less than 18% in the poll composite and always had a substantial lead on whoever was #3.
This year, all of the supposed serious candidates have been much worse. Bush, the best of them in terms of polling, has been third for stretches, has not been in first for much of the campaign so far and never has topped 15%.
It's a much different race than it was in 2012.
|
|
HistoryWomensBasketball
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 1435
Location: CT
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/18/15 5:20 am ::: |
Reply |
|
My grandparents migrated from Poland and Italy. They went through a process. I am not against people coming to America to try and make a better life for themselves.
I have concerns that it be done through a process and that those that come in do not become a strain on our society without any of them being vested in our country like we are.
We have something going on in our town, that while is a bit different, it has some of the same implications.
In the last 2 years, one of our schools has gone from 610 to 648 to 719 students. We are bursting at seams.
Our town has become a hotbed for other countries to send workers to come work on IT projects (more than a few outsourcing our own jobs), send their kids to school and then a high percentage move out in a few years. They eventually return to their home country with education at our expense.
There will be a referendum for a new school. Cost to exceed 30 million. I do have an issue with this. Families that are coming in have been documented as having 10 or more in a 2-3 bedroom apartment. one had 17 in a single bedroom.
current taxpayers are footing the education bill and new school. 30% of these children attend our schools 1 year and move on, 42% attend 2 years and move on.
The cycle is only increasing and politicians in town are hesitant to address the issue of how to handle it. they just want to fix the symptoms (tax current property owners) and not address the issue of overcrowding in dwellings that could help stabalize.
So while I think Trump is a moron, he does strike a nerve about addressing issues head on. |
|
TonyL222
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 5140
Location: Reston, VA
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/18/15 12:41 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| ...Trump has given more in-depth interviews than any other candidate of either party. |
In depth interviews with LOTS of superficial, gobbledygook answers.
Those at the lower end of the Republican ratings should go after him hard. What do they have to lose. It's time to go big or go home.
Someone, somewhere has to be digging into his past business practices.
|
|
jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/18/15 1:55 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Well, Tony, Chris Christie is using his prosecutorial chops to go after Hillary Clinton over the email server. And I have to admit, he has major chops. And nothing to lose. He's at the bottom of the polls, but his points on Hillary get him airtime and that's a big problem._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8231
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/18/15 2:07 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| TonyL222 wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| ...Trump has given more in-depth interviews than any other candidate of either party. |
In depth interviews with LOTS of superficial, gobbledygook answers.
|
Haha, Tony, you seem to be confusing Trump with Clinton. Oh, sorry, I forgot. Clinton has given NO answers to any issue since announcing for the Presidency. She flees from American citizens and the press as if they all had Ebola.
Have you listened to Trump's lengthy interviews? Somehow I doubt it. The details of his immigration plan, for example, which would have been vanilla common sense 30 years ago, are pushing many of the other Republican candidates more towards the chaos of mass deportation and the socialist candidates even further toward the economic and social chaos of open borders. Pick your chaos -- preferably in terms of the long-term economic interests of legal American citizens.
In any event, detailed policy positions are not what win elections. What wins are superficial appeals to large blocks of reflexively knee-jerk voters and low information voters. These superficial appeals -- looks, personality, charm, charisma -- are also what sway independent voters the most. |
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/18/15 3:53 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Have you listened to Trump's lengthy interviews? Somehow I doubt it. The details of his immigration plan, for example, which would have been vanilla common sense 30 years ago, are pushing many of the other Republican candidates more towards the chaos of mass deportation and the socialist candidates even further toward the economic and social chaos of open borders. Pick your chaos -- preferably in terms of the long-term economic interests of legal American citizens. |
So who besides Bernie Sanders (who's really kind of socialist-lite) are the socialist candidates? Certainly not Jim Webb.
I haven't actually given "open borders" much thought (and it could mean a lot of things), but I'm not sure I'd say it would lead to economic and social chaos. Not that I'd say the eras are comparable, but up until roughly the time of Ellis Island, the U.S. pretty much had open borders. (And if I can trust Wikipedia, there weren't any specific limitations on immigration by nationality until 1882 and the quota system didn't go into place until after WWI.)
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8231
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/18/15 4:37 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| beknighted wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Have you listened to Trump's lengthy interviews? Somehow I doubt it. The details of his immigration plan, for example, which would have been vanilla common sense 30 years ago, are pushing many of the other Republican candidates more towards the chaos of mass deportation and the socialist candidates even further toward the economic and social chaos of open borders. Pick your chaos -- preferably in terms of the long-term economic interests of legal American citizens. |
So who besides Bernie Sanders (who's really kind of socialist-lite) are the socialist candidates? |
Sorry if I'm the first to break this to you: 2015 Hillary Clinton.
As a baseline, by any definition I grew up with, Obama has governed as a socialist. To the extent anyone can get a peep out of Hillary Clinton, there's no apparent difference between her and Bernie Sanders on social, economic and military issues. This website, for example, suggests that there's not much difference between Clinton and Sanders on ideology and that both are somewhat more leftist than even the socialist Obama.
http://presidential-candidates.insidegov.com/compare/1-35-40/Barack-Obama-vs-Bernie-Sanders-vs-Hillary-Clinton
Here's DNC chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz being unable to define any difference between the Democrat party and socialism, a befuddlement she continued a few days later on Meet the Press under questioning from Chuck Todd.
<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/JHpiMv3Sy8Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> |
|
|
|
