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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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 Posted: 10/18/05 1:35 pm ::: "Don't ask, don't tell" |
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| When that phrase is used to describe university policies towards gays and lesbians, does it basically mean, "We won't ask you about your sexual orientation, but if you're gay or lesbian, we expect you to keep quiet about it"?
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 10/18/05 2:00 pm ::: Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" |
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| VandyWhit wrote: |
| When that phrase is used to describe university policies towards gays and lesbians, does it basically mean, "We won't ask you about your sexual orientation, but if you're gay or lesbian, we expect you to keep quiet about it"? |
"Don't ask, don't tell" is essentiallly the same thing as "No gays allowed." In both, as long as you are completely closeted nothing happens. But as soon as you let anyone know you are gay, you are out in both situations. I find "Don't ask, don't tell" to be one of the most insulting labels people try to pass off as an advance. It is nothing but more of the same.
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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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| Posted: 10/18/05 2:26 pm ::: |
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| Quote: |
| "Don't ask, don't tell" is essentiallly the same thing as "No gays allowed." In both, as long as you are completely closeted nothing happens. But as soon as you let anyone know you are gay, you are out in both situations. I find "Don't ask, don't tell" to be one of the most insulting labels people try to pass off as an advance. It is nothing but more of the same. |
I'm not quite following. You're saying, "Don't ask, don't tell" means "No gays allowed". Is that right?
But that doesn't make sense to me. In the long thread about Rene Portland, it was suggested that the prevailing policy in college is "don't ask don't tell". We all agree that there are likely some currently employed college wbb coaches who are lesbians, and since we know who some of them are, it seems likely that people at their institutions know, too.
But they still have jobs, so obviously (to me at least), it isn't like Portland's position which reported is, "If you're a lesbian, I'm kicking you off the team."
So I thought it meant basically, we won't discriminate against you in hiring, but we expect you to keep quiet about it.
I also assume that there's it's all understood, not explicitly spoken, and also that the possible consequences are left vague and also unspoken.
IOW, I think it's more subtle, and thus harder to combat, then a simple "No gays allowed."
I'm not asking for an opinion about the policy, just for a clarification on what people mean when they say it. Thanks.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 10/18/05 2:51 pm ::: |
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| VandyWhit wrote: |
| I'm not asking for an opinion about the policy, just for a clarification on what people mean when they say it. Thanks. |
Here's my take on the meaning of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"...
It means: We don't really want any gay people around here. If we find out that you're gay then we'll get rid of you. However, we're not going to make a big effort into searching for evidence of gayness. We're not going to ask you, so if you don't tell anyone then we'll never know. You can stay here as long as you can live with that level of restrictiveness.
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00NDROCKS
Joined: 01 Sep 2005
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| Posted: 10/18/05 2:52 pm ::: Re: "Don't ask, don't tell" |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| VandyWhit wrote: |
| When that phrase is used to describe university policies towards gays and lesbians, does it basically mean, "We won't ask you about your sexual orientation, but if you're gay or lesbian, we expect you to keep quiet about it"? |
"Don't ask, don't tell" is essentiallly the same thing as "No gays allowed." In both, as long as you are completely closeted nothing happens. But as soon as you let anyone know you are gay, you are out in both situations. I find "Don't ask, don't tell" to be one of the most insulting labels people try to pass off as an advance. It is nothing but more of the same. |
 I so agree with you on this Don't Ask-Don't Tell policy, it's like wearing shades so they can't see your eyes...for they are a dead give away most of the time. Funny that the Don't Ask-Don't Tell seems only for those of the Gay or Lesbian status, for if your Hetero everyone wants to know how many guys or gals you have in your life and how often your doing it.
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Slovydal
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 12205
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: 10/18/05 5:16 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| VandyWhit wrote: |
| I'm not asking for an opinion about the policy, just for a clarification on what people mean when they say it. Thanks. |
Here's my take on the meaning of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"...
It means: We don't really want any gay people around here. If we find out that you're gay then we'll get rid of you. However, we're not going to make a big effort into searching for evidence of gayness. We're not going to ask you, so if you don't tell anyone then we'll never know. You can stay here as long as you can live with that level of restrictiveness. |
It was the Clinton Administartions "solution" to Gays in the Military.
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O.G.
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 10/18/05 5:28 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
Here's my take on the meaning of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"...
It means: We don't really want any gay people around here. If we find out that you're gay then we'll get rid of you. However, we're not going to make a big effort into searching for evidence of gayness. We're not going to ask you, so if you don't tell anyone then we'll never know. You can stay here as long as you can live with that level of restrictiveness. |
How about, "We don't really want any gay people around here, but we NEED you for us to succeed, so we'll tolerate you as long as you agree to stay hidden."
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Slovydal
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/18/05 5:50 pm ::: |
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| O.G. wrote: |
How about, "We don't really want any gay people around here, but we NEED you for us to succeed, so we'll tolerate you as long as you agree to stay hidden." |
Sad but true.
Well said, O.G.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 10/19/05 10:40 am ::: |
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The reason, presumably, for the don't-ask/don't-tell policy at the administrative level is that there's a fear that if all the lesbians in women's basketball came out of the closet that it would have a detrimental effect on the growth of the game -- and specifically, would cut attendance by families with young daughters, and hurt TV ratings.
Question 1: Is that true?
At the other end of the spectrum, very few players and coaches have come out. Presumably, there could be no direct retaliation from the schools and WNBA teams, though it might jeopardize the careers of some borderline players and coaches. (Of course, if everyone came out, it would be a much different story.)
As an old white straight male, it's not my place to suggest that a gay person make the decision to come out, and I'm certainly not advocating that anybody should do what they don't want to do. But ...
Question 2: Why haven't more players and coaches come out?
Question 2A: Do more people come out in other professions? If so, is the publicity part of the problem?
Question 3: When will the sexual preference of athletes become a non-issue, if ever?
The only question I can even try to answer is the third one, and I'd like to believe we're moving in the right direction. Obviously, a conservative tide could turn things around in a heartbeat, but even with George W. in charge, it seems that tolerance is more and more common, and that young people are much less likely to be homophobic than the old folks.
I think the biggest problem, in terms of women's basketball, would be the fear on the part of some parents that somehow exposing their daughters to gay women playing basketball would make it more likely that their daughters would be gay, and some parents wouldn't like that. That is ridiculous on its face, of course, but logic is not always a strong point among parents.
So I'd say five years ... and it would really help if some NBA players would come out too.
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Iluvacc
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/19/05 12:51 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| and it would really help if some NBA players would come out too. |
well maybe now that Reggie Miller is retired...
i keed, i keed...
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/19/05 1:29 pm ::: |
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| womens_hoops wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| and it would really help if some NBA players would come out too. |
well maybe now that Reggie Miller is retired...
i keed, i keed... |
Yeah, we can at last discover that when he puts a wig on, he's actually Cheryl Miller. (No, I'm not serious. But I have sometimes wondered.)
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 10/19/05 2:17 pm ::: |
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Buy Reggie's Starting Lineup action figure and shave one of your Barbie dolls to use the hair for Reggie.
This way you get a two'fer, Cheryl Miller and Kristen Veal.
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 10/19/05 2:18 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
Buy Reggie's Starting Lineup action figure and shave one of your Barbie dolls to use the hair for Reggie.
This way you get a two'fer, Cheryl Miller and Kristen Veal. |
blue this sounds way too much like you've already tried this!
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bluewolfvii
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bluewolfvii
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bluewolfvii
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bluewolfvii
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Iluvacc
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| Posted: 10/19/05 3:52 pm ::: |
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| womens_hoops wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| and it would really help if some NBA players would come out too. |
well maybe now that Reggie Miller is retired...
i keed, i keed... |
LMAO!!!!!!!!
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bluewolfvii
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bluewolfvii
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O.G.
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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| Posted: 10/19/05 8:15 pm ::: |
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I'd like to join in the fun and games, but I can't let ClayK's post just disappear into the past.
| ClayK wrote: |
| At the other end of the spectrum, very few players and coaches have come out. Presumably, there could be no direct retaliation from the schools and WNBA teams, though it might jeopardize the careers of some borderline players and coaches. (Of course, if everyone came out, it would be a much different story.) |
ClayK, do you really believe that there would be no retaliation against lesbian players and coaches if they were to come out? If you do, I am (nearly) speechless with bewilderment. Of course there would be retaliation. Just look at what Rene Portland has said about a straight player, Jen Harris, and try to imagine what Rene would do to an out lesbian.
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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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| Posted: 10/19/05 9:30 pm ::: |
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| Quote: |
'd like to join in the fun and games, but I can't let ClayK's post just disappear into the past.
Clay: "At the other end of the spectrum, very few players and coaches have come out. Presumably, there could be no direct retaliation from the schools and WNBA teams, though it might jeopardize the careers of some borderline players and coaches. (Of course, if everyone came out, it would be a much different story.)"
ClayK, do you really believe that there would be no retaliation against lesbian players and coaches if they were to come out? If you do, I am (nearly) speechless with bewilderment. Of course there would be retaliation. Just look at what Rene Portland has said about a straight player, Jen Harris, and try to imagine what Rene would do to an out lesbian. |
For a minute there, I was nearly speechless with bewilderment at your response, too.
Then I read your response again and decided that you were talking specifically about the situation at PSU, while Clay was talking more generally. YES, if half of what has been said about Portland is true, then I agree that a player at Penn State who came out as a lesbian would be subjected to retaliation.
But NO, I don't agree that IN GENERAL there would be retalliation by superiors if players or coaches came out. The exception would be at a place like Penn State where you have (1) somebody like Rene Portland, and (2) the institutional environment where the athletic department functions practically as a completely distinct entity from the university at large. (Nobody is talking much about (2), but it appears to me to be a really important contributing element to what's happened at Penn State.)
Maybe I've totally misunderstood both of you . . . if so, feel free to clear it up. 
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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| Posted: 10/20/05 6:58 am ::: |
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| VandyWhit, instead of trying to respond to ClayK's post, I should have logged out and gone to bed. Let's move on, okay?
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