RebKell's Junkie Boards

[ClayK]

Am I the only one who thinks Andy Landers is a very overrated coach?

I'll save my evidence for later -- just looking for responses first.

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[caejal44]

I doubt that you're the only one who thinks Landers is overrated. I might be the only person on this board who doesn't think he's overrated. With that said, I've been UGA fan all of my life, and a women's basketball junkie for most of it, so I have a slight bias in this discussion.

One of the main knocks against Landers is a lack of a NC. Everybody says he has had the talent several times to win it all, but he hasn't, which they say is a clear indication of his lack of ability to coach. I don't agree with this philosophy at all. Just to have as many chances as he has is a testament to his ability to coach. I think that certain programs and fans of their programs take for granted how hard it is to win a NC because of their tremendous success at winning them.

I greatly admire any coach that can build a program from scratch through recruiting, coaching, etc and build it into a powerhouse program that has gone to 22 NCAA tournaments, 5 final fours (83,85,95,96,99), two (I believe) NC games. When he took over UGA had a record of 37-85 in its first six seasons. Now, they average 24.4 wins per season which is over a span of 26 seasons with Landers at the helm. Here's a link if you want a complete bio http://georgiadogs.collegesports.com/sports/w-baskbl/mtt/landers_andy00.html All of that was accomplished in the SEC which has been the strongest conference over the past 25 years with coaching legends at several schools.

With all this said, every year my brother asks when the Lady Bulldogs are going to choke in the tourney, so I see where the criticism lies. I just don't agree with it. Where would UGA be if Landers hadn't received the job? I honestly don't know.

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[dtsnms]

First welcome aboard caejal44.

Second, not being especially UGA knowledgeable, is the success due to Landers the coach, or Landers and staff the recruiters and the talent they have amassed?

Clay, when you say overrated as a coach, are you only referring to the x's and o's or the recruiting, admin, etc.?

[caejal44]

Thanks for the welcome. I think UGA's success has been based on all of those factors, but the only factor consistent over the past 26 years is Coach Landers. The talent comes and goes, the assistants come and go, but Landers has been there, and it is hard to believe that Landers wouldn't have a strong voice in picking the assistants or choosing the talent. As far as x's and o's, I might agree that Landers might not be the most sophisticated coach. His gameplan tends to be very simple -- fast and aggressive. But, it seems to work.

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[ClayK]

Landers is a great recruiter, no question, and gets talent every year.

Aside from the failure to win a national title, which is excusable considering the necessary luck, there are a few things that trouble me:

1) Despite tremendous recruiting classes and raw talent, Georgia has lost 10 games each of the past four years. There's no way they should lose 10 this year either ...

2) His players don't improve. They come in talented, and stay talented, but they don't seem to build on that talent.

3) During games, even late in the season, Landers seems to always spend some time screaming at his players for not being in the right place. Two choices here: 1) His system is too complicated for his players, which is his fault; or 2) He isn't able to teach his players to be where they're supposed to be at critical times, which is also his fault.

I think coaches should be rated in two ways: By the talent they bring in, and what they do with it. Landers, like Sylvia Hatchell, brings in the talent -- but they never seem to maximize its potential.

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[dtsnms]

[caejal44]

I'm sure you're going to love this, but I have to disagree with you on a lot of your points.

1) Yes, Georgia did lose ten games in the past four years, BUT you have to consider the circumstances with the teams. I was a student there from 2000-2004, so I kind of followed these teams in particular.
Let's see 2001-2002 -- With the departures of Keisha Brown, Miller twins, Nolan and others, Georgia had 7 freshmen (led by Kara Braxton and RS Ebony Felder) on their roster and one sophmore (Christi Thomas). The only notable upperclassmen were Tawana McDonald, Camille Murphy (?), and Mary Beth Lycett. T-Mac was injured basically all season. Murphy was attempting to run the point, but she was a natural SG. Lycett, who was playing behind one of the best backcourts ever, had a great year and came on as a leader. Tina Taylor (a true pg) was injured this year. I don't think 10 losses is a bad season.

2002-2003 -- The two guards with the most playing time as freshmen (Whitney Law and Nikki Eason) leave the team. Felder is injured at the beginning of the season coming off a freshman ALL-SEC selection. Lycett is a senior and has an amazing year. They are replaced with Baker, Kendrick, and Marquita Driskell. Kendrick as a freshman PG does a great job, and things are going well until Feb. At this time, Braxton can't seem to adhere to team policy and is kicked off the team. Despite this setback, they go undefeated at home. Driskell collapses before the SEC tourney. Leaving the roster at 8. They go to the NCAA tourney and Baker goes down in the Rutgers game, leaving 7. That seven plays DUke extremely well in the Sweet sixteen. Ten losses, six underclassmen, tons of drama, a great year.

2003-2004 -- Lycett graduates. Driskell leaves for medical reasons. Kim Braxton transfers after being red-shirted the year before. Add Rowsey, Hardrick, and Chambers. Taylor gets injured. Felder injured until the latter part of SEC schedule. Kara Braxton gets booted again. Georgia again relies on freshmen, sophmores for the backcourt. These frehsman and sophmores lead the team to the SEC championship game and Elite 8. Thomas has another solid year as really the only healthy low post threat after Braxton leaves.

2004-2005 Thomas graduates and the frontcourt is decimated as Felder cannot return for medical reasons and Jessica Pierce has off season surgery that she cannot battle back from. Kendrick and Hardrick have off season surgery. Taylor tears ACL in first practice. Frontcourt is Soph Rowsey, Freshman Humprhey, and Freshman Darrah (out of position, really a guard). I have to agree that this team underachieved slightly, but I think people forgot how important Thomas was to the team.
I will agree with you on this year being a "bad" year.

But, the first three years of the four were haunted by inexperience at all positions, injuries, and Braxton dismissals. All in all, I think Landers did a great job.

2) His players don't improve?? So, are you saying that Teresa Edwards came into the Georgia as a legend? Landers didn't teach her anything that helped her win all those gold medals. Interesting. Take Cori Chambers as a prime example of improvement while at Georgia, and that was just between her freshman and sophmore years. Rowsey is another example. Or even Lycett, look at her numbers over her career. Landers develops players. So are you saing that the 16 former Georgia players that have played in the WNBA were talented enough as high school seniors to play in the W? Even Braxton cites Landers as having a huge influence on learning the game.

3) Landers never stops teaching. Summit does the same things. Players at every program make mistakes at different times in the game. Great coaches teach at every moment. And actually Landers has calmed down drastically in the past years. Landers is intense, but he seems to have calmed down on the sidelines, so I rarely see him sceaming at his players anymore.

Like him or not, Landers is a legend.

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[caejal44]

Another thing...isn't a player's potential directly related to the player? Is it right to fault a coach for a player's lack of focus on or desire for impoving their basketball skills? When do you know that the coach has maximized the potential of the talent that he or she has?

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[rebkell]

[cometsfan05]

coach landers is one of the top womens college basketball coaches ever he turned a chance to coach a mens team to coach a womens team if that doesnt say something right there then I dont know what does, HE IS NOT OVERATED AT ALL I DONT THINK HE WOULD HAVE WON OVER 700 + GAMES if he's so overated people get real I think now he really has the talent to compete for a national championship he has the best group of guards in the country period and they get the top point guard in the nation as a freshman next year they have the ingredients they just need to settle down and play some damn ball he reminds me of coach cn chancelor of the houston comets he calls some bone head plays sometimes but that doesnt take away his coaching ability he's one of the best

[Carol Anne]

When Jim Foster left Vanderbilt for Ohio State, he reputedly said, "I'm tired of losing to Tennessee." I suspect Andy Landers feels just the same.

[caejal44]

Actually, I think Coach Landers wants to play Tennessee more. He was commenting on the home-and-home match-ups at the press conference, and when he mentioned Florida was the natural rival, there was a bit of sarcasm in his voice as if another school was a better choice. I could be wrong though. Well, he does get Tennessee at least twice for the next two years. Should be a lot of fun.

Rebkell-- That moment in the tourney two years ago is one of my favorite moments. Landers showed a lot of heart and class at that moment. I also like the moment last year in the tourney when he put Kendrick in a headlock to ask the officials how that wasn't considered a foul.

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[Sass]

Whether or not he's overrated, I suspect not, but I'll leave that to the true Georgia-heads. For me, though, any man who would sleep in the car or on gymnasium floors in the 70s (when women's teams were not yet given hotels) with his team has my ultimate respect.

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get it straight - he's great
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[VandyWhit]

[ClayK]

Excellent info ... thanks much.

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[cthskzfn]

"Am I the only one who thinks Andy Landers is a very overrated coach?"


well, i wouldn't say VERY overrated, but i think he IS overrated.

i like him, but his team usually underachieves.

[rebkell]

[ClayK]

I think it would be fair to say Landers is generally considered one of the top coaches in the country. I don't keep track of awards and such, so I don't know if he's won any.

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[VandyWhit]

I was thinking the same thing . . . "over-rated" compared to what?

I think he's one of the legendary coaches in the women's game. I don't think that's arguable. He's been around since the beginning, paid his dues, and had a very successful career by anyone's standards except Tennessee's.

As to whether he's one of the "top coaches" in the country, that probably depends on how many you're going to select and on what criteria. If you're looking at career records, yes.

But I think it gets complicated if you start looking at specific aspects of coaching . . . e.g., recruiting, teaching the game, game planning, game day strategy, and running the program.

With Landers, I seem to always have the feeling that he isn't get the most that's possible out of the players that he has. It doesn't seem like his teams are greater than the sum of the individual talent.

But that's just a feeling. It comes from the gap between expectations and achievement. One's knee-jerk reaction is that the expectations are reasonable, so the teams under-achieve.

But it could mean that the expectations are too high, and the teams really do as well as could be reasonably expected, or even better.

It could be that the type of athletes that Landers tend to attract are the kind that if you look at individually, you think, "Wow, she's talented!" but perhaps they aren't always great at becoming part of a team.

Being a Vandy fan, mostly when I'm paying careful attention to Georgia, they're playing Vandy. There was that SEC tournament finals game in 2004 when Vandy trailed by 18 points early in the second half, and Vandy came back to win the game. Last year in Athens, Georgia was leading by 9 with four minutes remaining, and Vandy came back to tie the game then win in OT.

At some point, you start wondering about that. Maybe it's just a flukey thing, but it meshes with the oft-cited claim that Landers' teams "choke." If that's a fair claim, it still isn't clear just what is happening. Could it be that it has something to do with the type of players he recruits? Could it be that compared to other coaches, he doesn't make solid adjustments? Could it be that he loses his cool and that affects his teams?

I'm not sure.

It's also a little complicated because he's been at the same school for so long. If he went somewhere else, would he be as successful where his program isn't established? If he hypothetically were in the position where recruiting didn't benefit from his reputation and Georgia's tradition in women's basketball, would he be as successful?

I'm kinda inclined to think not. If you look at it that way, I might rank some of the young coaches who are turning programs around higher just in terms of their current ability to coach.

But just in terms of "best coaches", it's kind of an apples and oranges thing.

If I had to do a ranking, I'd break it down into categories -- e.g., Legends of the Game, Young Guns, Masters of the Mid-Majors", etc. After all, if you're looking at specific aspects of coaching like recruiting, it's unfair to compare the recruiting ability of someone like Landers with someone like Harry Peretta because their environments are just so different.

[rebkell]

How many actual coaches have won an NCAA title in the women's game?

[VandyWhit]

If I counted right, 13 coaches have won NCAA national championships (I don't have the AIAW or other records close at hand).

Pat Summitt (Tennessee) 6
Geno Auriemma (UConn) 5
Linda Sharp (Southern Cal) 2
Tara VanDerveer (Stanford) 2
Leon Barmore (La Tech) 1
Jody Conradt (Texas) 1
Sylvia Hatchell (UNC) 1
Sonja Hogg (La Tech) 1
Muffet McGraw (Notre Dame) 1
Carolyn Peck (Purdue) 1
Marsha Sharp (Texas Tech) 1
Marianne Stanley (ODU) 1
Kim Mulkey-Robertson (Baylor) 1

[Sass]

[styxfan22]

You could ask the same question about CVS, Gail G., etc. Final Fours but no title. Why single out Andy?

[CamrnCrz1974]

[cthskzfn]