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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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Keegan
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 6861
Location: The Cathedral of Snark
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 Posted: 05/07/06 12:26 am ::: |
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I thought it was pretty obvious why your comment was xenophobic, Jammer. Basically anybody (citizens or not) can get legally heterosexually married in the US, so why is their English speaking or immigration status an issue? It seems to me a cheap attempt to scare people of these evil foreigners.
I also do not get this obsession over English speaking. Over time, migrants will learn the language and assimilate into the culture, unless there's something peculiar about the US I am overlooking. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen. The English speaking thing also reminds me of the lame reasons used to prop up the racist White Australia policy (Google it if you want to learn more).
Anyway, I've made my point so I'll bow out of this thread. I'll save you the bother of typing a couple of paragraphs Jammer  |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 05/07/06 7:46 am ::: |
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| Keegan wrote: |
| I thought it was pretty obvious why your comment was xenophobic, Jammer. |
Whether or not the common concerns regarding the language issues surrounding this immigrant group represent actual xenophobia among Americans is not my issue at all. It's not why I threw that into the question to cam or why I've mentioned the language issues in past posts. (if I have)
Regarding cam. It was used rhetorically to help contrast who he is versus who they are. I wish I hadn't thrown it in there but only because it was pounced on by some of you. A US born citizen who as a member of a certain controversial group doesn't enjoy the full rights of citizenship should be incensed that illegal immigrants might get those rights if his group continues to be denied them.
But there has always been an English language hurdle that had to be cleared by immigrants seeking US citizenship. That's just American immigration law since 1950 and they've recently made the English test much harder. Is that xenophobic? You might think so. I don't. But that's not the issue. Concern over a new citizen's facility with the language is a choice and that choice has been made by the US and I personally agree with it and whether you think it or I are xenophobic is pretty much a warm breeze I'm not experiencing.
I LIVE for the multiculturalism of Los Angeles. I couldn't live anywhere that wasn't a melting pot of people who are fresh from countries around the world. Calling me a xenophobe is like calling a basketball square shaped. It's not reality. But I can't stop you knuckleheads from seeing boogers.
Regarding my other references to the language issues in this thread and the last one. (if I indeed made a reference to it in the last thread) I speak, as Slovy does, as mature educated boots on the ground here in Los Angeles. I think there's been some failures in this thread by a number of people to engage some of us on the level that we're on. Sorry if some of you don't like the way that sounds but there has been a condescension coming OUR WAY from people who, from a distance, would like to assume that we don't take into account statistical trends or factual studies in forming our opinions. I do. I'm sure Slovy does. It's essential to inform yourself before you open your mouth. We're all curious types. The internet puts the ability to gather and assimiliate information at ALL our fingertips. Not just pilight's.
In my opinion it's narrowminded, although in a bookish way, for anyone to assume that what THEY are gleaning about any particular subject solely from published studies and statistics about that topic could or would provide them with a complete and accurate picture. I don't know much but I know that the social sciences rely heavily on real world observation and work in the field interviewing and taking oral histories. And it takes years to start seeing patterns and to begin drawing conclusions. I'm certainly not a social scientist and neither, I think, is Slovy. But we're pretty smart old dudes and we have some education to go along with the tons of real world experiences that inform our opinions.
You can't look ONLY look at statistics and data studies.
So... when Slovy and I bring up or politely hint at the language issues we've experience, in regards to non-English speaking Hispanics here in Los Angeles, you can dismiss that, from places like Australia or Georgia, as simply xenophobia talking, and even base that on some abstract data you might have. But I would condescendingly offer that this might be a false conclusion that you've arrived at based more on the limits of your own inability to understand or appreciate, from a distance, the real world complexities of the issue._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 21929
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| Posted: 05/07/06 9:59 am ::: |
Reply |
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| Am I reading that right? Are you saying that gay "illegal" immigrants will have more rights than gay "legitimate" US citizens?
_________________
Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16359
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 05/07/06 10:02 am ::: |
Reply |
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| Quote: |
Princeton:
You're a little bit racist.
Kate Monster:
Well, you're a little bit too.
Princeton:
I guess we're both a little bit racist.
Kate Monster:
Admitting it is not an easy thing to do...
Princeton:
But I guess it's true.
Kate Monster:
Between me and you,
I think
Both:
Everyone's a little bit racist
Sometimes.
Doesn't mean we go
Around committing hate crimes.
Look around and you will find
No one's really color blind.
Maybe it's a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgments
Based on race.
Princeton:
Now not big judgments, like who to hire
or who to buy a newspaper from -
Kate Monster:
No!
Princeton:
No, just little judgments like thinking that Mexican
busboys should learn to speak goddamn English!
Kate Monster:
Right!
Both:
Everyone's a little bit racist
Today.
So, everyone's a little bit racist
Okay!
Ethinic jokes might be uncouth,
But you laugh because
They're based on truth.
Don't take them as
Personal attacks.
Everyone enjoys them -
So relax!
Kate Monster:
You're a little bit racist.
Gary Coleman:
Well, you're a little bit too.
Princeton:
We're all a little bit racist.
Gary Coleman:
I think that I would
Have to agree with you.
Princeton/Kate Monster:
We're glad you do.
Gary Coleman:
It's sad but true!
Everyone's a little bit racist -
All right!
Kate Monster:
All right!
Princeton:
All right!
Gary Coleman:
All right!
Bigotry has never been
Exclusively white
All:
If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
Even though we all know
That it's wrong,
Maybe it would help us
Get along.
Kate Monster:
Everyone's a little bit racist.
Brian:
I'm not!
Princeton:
Oh no?
Brian:
Nope!
How many Oriental wives
Have you got?
Christmas Eve:
What? Brian!
Princeton:
Brian, buddy, where you been?
The term is Asian-American!
Christmas Eve:
I know you are no
Intending to be
But calling me Oriental -
Offensive to me!
Brian:
I'm sorry, honey, I love you.
Christmas Eve:
And I love you.
Brian:
But you're racist, too.
Christmas Eve:
Yes, I know.
The Jews have all
The money
And the whites have all
The power.
And I'm always in taxi-cab
With driver who no shower!
Princeton:
Me too!
Kate Monster:
Me too!
Gary Coleman:
I can't even get a taxi!
All:
Everyone's a little bit racist
It's true.
But everyone is just about
As racist as you!
If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
And everyone stopped being
So PC
Maybe we could live in -
Harmony!
Christmas Eve:
Evlyone's a ritter bit lacist!
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*runs and hides*
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66921
Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 05/07/06 10:13 am ::: |
Reply |
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| Part of the reason I've mostly stayed out of this thread is that the Jammer is way too proud of his inability to see the forest for the trees.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 5007
Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 05/07/06 11:07 am ::: |
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Jammer, a few pages back you wrote "I've never seen an issue that makes people so quickly step away from their own analytical minds and revert to emotionally charged rhetoric."
But then you write, 'A US born citizen who as a member of a certain controversial group doesn't enjoy the full rights of citizenship should be incensed that illegal immigrants might get those rights if his group continues to be denied them.'
That sounds like emotionally charged rhetoric to me, however.
That I don't get equal rights doesn't change my mind on this issue as I understand it- not just from your and Slovy's first hand accounts -- which I appreciate and do not question - but from many other sources such as polls, opinion from both sides, and surveys.
Most California residents support the same McCain-Kennedy bill that I support. That's the one that includes a path to citizenship for the illegals already here- the 'other' side prefers to call it amnesty.
Whatever you call it, citizenship is something that will have to be earned under the provisions of McCain -Kennedy --not everyone is going to qualify for or get it. Those granted will have been here at least 6 years, pass a citizen test, pay fines, work, and learn English. They will be paying taxes, too, and staying longer in jobs, probably long enough to enjoy better wages and some provisions for healthcare.
There will also be higher quotas with longer visa stays for guest workers under McCain-Kennedy, as opposed to the short-term stays under the Bush plan ( where the short-term workers would then be replaced by more short-term workers.)
McCain-Kennedy also strengthens the US Border Patrol by adding jobs and additional funding to pay for those jobs. Also, it pushes for a national identification card that can't be forged or altered. And, it seeks broader enforcement and stronger penalites for employers who hire undocumented workers and those who would bring them into the country illegally.
This bill is what the movement is about. This is what most Hispanic speaking workers, both legal and illegal, were marching for.
What they are protesting is the House Bill that would keep the status quo. The House Bill keeps immigration quotas unrealisically low. Under the House Bill, US businesses will continue to have to pay head-hunters bounties for temporary short term workers. Once the short term runs out, what do the workers do? Some of them overstay the visa, exactly like more than half the ~12 million illegal residents currently here did. Even as the House proposes a 700 mile long wall, buses carrying the workers who become illegal residents are coming in right up the driveway to the front door. All the workers need do is not go back when the short stay visa is up and go underground. It's the status quo, and it benefits businesses seeking to keep worker benefits down and employment costs low.
The McCain-Kennedy bill is an alternative to that status quo and I'm for it, regardless of the separate issue of my rights as a gay American.
But there isn't really much we differ on here except for building the wall, is there?
Isn't the wall more of a symbol that politicians can wave about to their constituents to either appease or arouse the base?
Meanwhile, wall or no wall, workers will continue to come in. Why? Because US businesses sponsor them and want them here. What US businesses want most, imo, is the status quo because it's been working so well for them. But failing that, most would settle for the McCain-Kennedy bill because it has something for everyone and seeks realistic solutions to both immigrant worker and US business needs instead of building castles in the air..or in this case, walls across the desert..
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 5007
Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 05/07/06 12:41 pm ::: |
Reply |
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SuziQ wrote:
| Quote: |
| Blue, you are right regarding gay rights vs. gay marriage. Frankly, I just used that phrase as a "catch-all". I am very concerned about the erosion of my own rights as an American simply because I am gay. Cam, you and I are in agreement - it's something we must address also. My GF and I have decided we would never do a committment ceremony or other such things because 1) we've been committed to each other for over 12 years and feel it's sorta redundant, and 2) at this time it doesn't add a layer of legal protection, so what's the point? |
Suzi, my GF and I have been in the same place as you and your partner in regard to a commitment ceremony in our home state.
I have to admit, however, that on a recent weekend visit to Niagara Falls the thought of marrying crossed our minds. Depending on whether or not we relocate within the states, it is something we might plan for a future visit.
It may not do anything for our rights in the US, but it would give us status as partners for future trips abroad to more progressive places. It feels right and as an older couple, more urgent, too. If something would happen to one of us, it is something to hold close to the heart. Also, I believe now that it would honor our families and acquantainces in not only asking but in giving them something to respect, just as our respect has sanctioned their relationships.
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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 2300
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| Posted: 05/07/06 1:15 pm ::: |
Reply |
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PUMatty,
There's never a wrong time to quote Avenue Q!
"Princeton:
No, just little judgments like thinking that Mexican
busboys should learn to speak goddamn English!"
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 05/07/06 5:10 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| Part of the reason I've mostly stayed out of this thread is that the Jammer is way too proud of his inability to see the forest for the trees. |
A more likely reason is that your easy one sentence condemnations of my stuff have been painfully slow to come to mind._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 05/07/06 6:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
Jammer, a few pages back you wrote "I've never seen an issue that makes people so quickly step away from their own analytical minds and revert to emotionally charged rhetoric."
But then you write, 'A US born citizen who as a member of a certain controversial group doesn't enjoy the full rights of citizenship should be incensed that illegal immigrants might get those rights if his group continues to be denied them.'
That sounds like emotionally charged rhetoric to me, however. |
It was a small bit of editorializing, blue. And I stand by it, by the way. While I might have said earlier that this issue causes people to step back from the analytical side of things to the emotional I was referring to people who have seemed to cast aside analytical discussion altogether and emotionally attack those who don't agree with them. I have not attacked anyone in this thread who did not call me, in a fit of emotion, a racist. It doesn't mean that I don't have emotions myself. And it also doesn't discount the fact that emotionally charged politics are a very effective way of getting what you want accomplished. Emotion is what has put millions of Hispanic immigrants and their supporters in the streets.
| Quote: |
That I don't get equal rights doesn't change my mind on this issue as I understand it- not just from your and Slovy's first hand accounts -- which I appreciate and do not question - but from many other sources such as polls, opinion from both sides, and surveys.
Most California residents support the same McCain-Kennedy bill that I support. That's the one that includes a path to citizenship for the illegals already here- the 'other' side prefers to call it amnesty. |
I can only speak for myself. I'm for a path to citizenship. I've said that. I'm not for deporting people who have been here some period of time. What I think is essential is stopping the influx of undocumented people into the United States.
| Quote: |
Whatever you call it, citizenship is something that will have to be earned under the provisions of McCain -Kennedy --not everyone is going to qualify for or get it. Those granted will have been here at least 6 years, pass a citizen test, pay fines, work, and learn English. They will be paying taxes, too, and staying longer in jobs, probably long enough to enjoy better wages and some provisions for healthcare.
There will also be higher quotas with longer visa stays for guest workers under McCain-Kennedy, as opposed to the short-term stays under the Bush plan ( where the short-term workers would then be replaced by more short-term workers.)
McCain-Kennedy also strengthens the US Border Patrol by adding jobs and additional funding to pay for those jobs. Also, it pushes for a national identification card that can't be forged or altered. And, it seeks broader enforcement and stronger penalites for employers who hire undocumented workers and those who would bring them into the country illegally.
This bill is what the movement is about. This is what most Hispanic speaking workers, both legal and illegal, were marching for.
What they are protesting is the House Bill that would keep the status quo. The House Bill keeps immigration quotas unrealisically low. Under the House Bill, US businesses will continue to have to pay head-hunters bounties for temporary short term workers. Once the short term runs out, what do the workers do? Some of them overstay the visa, exactly like more than half the ~12 million illegal residents currently here did. Even as the House proposes a 700 mile long wall, buses carrying the workers who become illegal residents are coming in right up the driveway to the front door. All the workers need do is not go back when the short stay visa is up and go underground. It's the status quo, and it benefits businesses seeking to keep worker benefits down and employment costs low.
The McCain-Kennedy bill is an alternative to that status quo and I'm for it, regardless of the separate issue of my rights as a gay American.
But there isn't really much we differ on here except for building the wall, is there?
Isn't the wall more of a symbol that politicians can wave about to their constituents to either appease or arouse the base? |
Blue whatever you call it or dismiss it as, I'm for a physical barrier that will prevent people from coming into this country uncontrolled and undocumented. My posts are ALL about relating to the board the real ramifications (some call them xenophobic and racist "fears") I've seen that are a result of decades of that unchecked immigration on the city that I live in. What I've been met with is ideological stances from various parts of the country from people who have no idea what I'm talking about in real terms. They hear about it only in the abstract, and it comes, to them, in a form they can only relate to as small minded intolerance.
We have a saying in LA about people like many of us here who come to this city from places like Georgia and Pennsylvania.
We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.
That saying used in that context was for a long time as familiar to young people here as any other local color saying was.
It refers to the culture shock that all of what Los Angeles is presents to people who come here from other parts of the country. Another way of putting it that it is a different world out here. Heard that one a thousand times. And then there is how you look back at the other side once you're through the looking glass, so to speak, of living here, at people from other parts of the country. The differing perspectives will invariably create misunderstandings. I've seen SO many bullheaded know-it-alls from back there humbled by what they find out here and yet the word never seems to get around to the rest of the country.
The perspective I offer is from the other side of the looking glass on immigration. It's not intolerance. But it warns of the impact of intolerance, among other things, on a society that has no choice, it seems, but to accept racial and gender intolerance without any discussion or attempt to correct the problem whatsover. When you're talking about culturally entrenched attitudes in a MASSIVE percentage of the population, you're talking about what can, and in this case has, become an intractable situation.
And it's just one real life scenario that I've presented to this board. What an odd coincidence that two otherwise enlightened liberals who happen to live or have lived in Los Angeles for a combined 60 years (Slovy's lying about his age! ) would be the ones on this board sounding an alarm amongst the deaf-eared PC-approved mind set.
Look at the response we've gotten. We've been called racists and xenophobes. And every one of our posts have been scrutinized for that one word that would allow people to jump all over us.
I'm not a saint. That's for sure. But I love Los Angeles and our Mexican culture and population. I'm addicted to a multicultural environment.
My revealing and discussing problems inherent in unchecked illegal immigration doesn't move me one centimeter closer to being this person some of you are bent on painting me as._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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Slovydal
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 12205
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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MsTena-T
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 2178
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| Posted: 05/07/06 9:06 pm ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
Reply |
|
| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
I have really been trying to let this one pass BUT I am about to go on vacation so I figured I better let it out . . .
I have nothing against legal immigrants but I have a big problem with this Mexican immigrant thing.
1. I am not understanding how you come into somebody else's house illegally and demand that you now be made legal without going tthrough the proper channels.
2. I have a BIG BIG problem when I hear them compare their plight to to Martin L. King and the civil rights movement.
3. When I hear them say "We do the jobs that the Blacks won't do" I am not sure if that is a back-handed compliment or a straight in your face dis.
I think if illegal immigrants are granted amnesty that All American born citizens who do not have a felony should be allowed 1 illegal act (no guns) . Me I'd be at the bank make a large withdrawal. |
I take it you're not "Mexican." |
I might be! And what difference would that make? All "Mexicans" do not agree with this immigrant idea. Heard some and talk to some. So by you school of thought I need to go tell them that they are not "Mexicans" (that is what they call themselves) |
Why aren't screaming about the illegal Candadians and illegal immigrants from Europe and Spain and Africa.
I smell a racist. |
OK I am a racist, anything else you wanna label me go right ahead. One thing about me, YOUR label of me is your label. Those who know me, KNOW and those who don't speak out of ignorance (and that would be you). Regardless it does not change my opinion or make me waver one bit.
And to answer the other question posed by whoever it was: I can only speak about what I see, hear, read or experience personally. In my part of the world, I have yet to see, hear, read or experience other illegal immigrants (Canadians, Africans, Asians or whatever) DEMANDING they be given legal US citizenship because they are here. When I look at my news here in Houston be it local or national, the only illegal immigrants that are front and center are those who call themselves Mexican illegal immigrants. If that makes me a racist then guess what I am a racist. And I have not heard the national athem, THe U S National Anthem translated, recorded and sung in any other language besides Spanish.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 5007
Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 05/07/06 9:29 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| Slovydal wrote: |
| Today I downloaded some forms from the CA DMV. They offered the forms in Spanish also. Not all other languages of the world - (not EQUAL rights for all immigrants), but in Spanish. Pilight says that statistics show that Hispanic immigrants learn English at the same rate as all other immigrants - so why are Califronia's revenues being spent on something that supposedly isn't needed? |
Why wouldn't it be needed when there is a significant population of Hispanic speaking people and some are first generation immigrants?
I liked this passage from an article from Nick Gillespie last week, and think it touches on your question
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/04/30/INGCCIFURA1.DTL
| Quote: |
..whenever I think about the need for English literacy tests for immigrants, I think about my maternal grandfather, Nicola Guida, who showed up at Ellis Island (what a polyglot slum that was!) in 1913 and then proceeded to waste most of his time working manual labor jobs like quarrying rock and digging basements by hand and raising four children rather than taking the time to learn English, the ingrate. It's one of the great pities of my life that, because I speak no Italian (other than what I picked up via the "Godfather" movies) and he spoke no English (other than what he picked up watching "Gunsmoke," his favorite TV show), I was never able to communicate effectively to him just how un-American he was.
We can take some solace -- very little, but in this crazy world of run-amok immigration and full employment, we take what we can get -- in the fact that, even if Congress passes no law to force English onto immigrants, plenty of third-generation Mexicans will find it equally tough to talk with their grandparents. As the Pew Hispanic Center documents, about 80 percent of third-generation Latinos in the United States speak English as their dominant language -- and exactly 0 percent speak Spanish as their dominant language. The rest are considered bilingual, which means they'll be able to tell their elders in their native tongue to either learn English or get the hell out of the land of opportunity, already |
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Last edited by bluewolfvii on 05/07/06 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66921
Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 05/07/06 9:54 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Part of the reason I've mostly stayed out of this thread is that the Jammer is way too proud of his inability to see the forest for the trees. |
A more likely reason is that your easy one sentence condemnations of my stuff have been painfully slow to come to mind. |
Actually, jammy, the main reason I haven't posted much in it is that I mostly agree with you.
The whole "they don't even speak English" thing is a sideshow to the problem, but it reflects badly on the people who bring it up.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 2300
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/07/06 11:12 pm ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
Reply |
|
| MsTena-T wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
I have really been trying to let this one pass BUT I am about to go on vacation so I figured I better let it out . . .
I have nothing against legal immigrants but I have a big problem with this Mexican immigrant thing.
1. I am not understanding how you come into somebody else's house illegally and demand that you now be made legal without going tthrough the proper channels.
2. I have a BIG BIG problem when I hear them compare their plight to to Martin L. King and the civil rights movement.
3. When I hear them say "We do the jobs that the Blacks won't do" I am not sure if that is a back-handed compliment or a straight in your face dis.
I think if illegal immigrants are granted amnesty that All American born citizens who do not have a felony should be allowed 1 illegal act (no guns) . Me I'd be at the bank make a large withdrawal. |
I take it you're not "Mexican." |
I might be! And what difference would that make? All "Mexicans" do not agree with this immigrant idea. Heard some and talk to some. So by you school of thought I need to go tell them that they are not "Mexicans" (that is what they call themselves) |
Why aren't screaming about the illegal Candadians and illegal immigrants from Europe and Spain and Africa.
I smell a racist. |
OK I am a racist, anything else you wanna label me go right ahead. One thing about me, YOUR label of me is your label. Those who know me, KNOW and those who don't speak out of ignorance (and that would be you). Regardless it does not change my opinion or make me waver one bit.
And to answer the other question posed by whoever it was: I can only speak about what I see, hear, read or experience personally. In my part of the world, I have yet to see, hear, read or experience other illegal immigrants (Canadians, Africans, Asians or whatever) DEMANDING they be given legal US citizenship because they are here. When I look at my news here in Houston be it local or national, the only illegal immigrants that are front and center are those who call themselves Mexican illegal immigrants. If that makes me a racist then guess what I am a racist. And I have not heard the national athem, THe U S National Anthem translated, recorded and sung in any other language besides Spanish. |
And using your logic... damn those gays for asking for civil rights and the right to marry! Sodomy is illegal in many states. Gay marriage is illegal. How dare people even bring it up as an issue! How dare they DEMAND they be given equality!
And at least you'll admit to being a racist. I respect that. Stand up for what you believe in, but call it what it is.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16359
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 05/07/06 11:23 pm ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
Reply |
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| hooper1 wrote: |
And using your logic... damn those gays for asking for civil rights and the right to marry! Sodomy is illegal in many states. Gay marriage is illegal. How dare people even bring it up as an issue! How dare they DEMAND they be given equality!
And at least you'll admit to being a racist. I respect that. Stand up for what you believe in, but call it what it is. |
Actually sodomy isn't illegal in any state. The Supreme Court struck down all of those laws.
At least be informed if you want to try to use me as a pawn in your argument.
If you need some info, see previous rant.
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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 2300
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| Posted: 05/08/06 12:05 am ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
Reply |
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| duplicate post
Last edited by hooper1 on 05/08/06 12:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 2300
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| Posted: 05/08/06 12:07 am ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
Reply |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
And using your logic... damn those gays for asking for civil rights and the right to marry! Sodomy is illegal in many states. Gay marriage is illegal. How dare people even bring it up as an issue! How dare they DEMAND they be given equality!
And at least you'll admit to being a racist. I respect that. Stand up for what you believe in, but call it what it is. |
Actually sodomy isn't illegal in any state. The Supreme Court struck down all of those laws.
At least be informed if you want to try to use me as a pawn in your argument.
If you need some info, see previous rant. |
Lawrence v Texas invalidated sodomy laws insofar as they applied to noncommercial conduct in private between consenting civilian adults.
Been to Montana lately? Sodomy is still on the books there, despite Gryczan v. Montana. They never removed it. I'd be surprised if you don't see those wackos up there try to enforce it again. Check your facts.
And what about gay marriage? Still illegal unless you live in Mass.
My point is that just because something is illegal, that doesn't mean it's wrong or should be wrong.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 5007
Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 05/08/06 8:01 am ::: |
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Gays Should Join Immigration Fight
http://www.newyorkblade.com/2006/5-8/viewpoint/opinion/tiven.cfm
This article talks about H.R. 4437, the House bill that the millions of workers were protesting against.
| Quote: |
THE CURRENT DEBATE on immigration reform has prompted much talk about "illegal aliens," and the LGBT community should understand the incredible damage that proposed changes in the law could do to our families.
The House of Representatives immigration bill, H.R. 4437, and some of the parallel provisions being debated in the Senate include:
Criminalization of undocumented status H.R. 4437 would make it a felony to be present in the U.S. without legal immigration status. Currently, "unlawful presence" is a civil violation, not a crime. H.R. 4437 would lead to undocumented LGBT immigrants being jailed and deported, simply because they had no other way to remain in the U.S. and maintain family unity.
"Alien harboring" H.R. 4437 and the Senate bill dramatically expand the definition of "harboring." Although the Senate bill has exceptions for humanitarian assistance providers, U.S. citizens living with undocumented partners could be criminally prosecuted and imprisoned and have their homes and assets seized. Legal service providers, churches and social workers would also be at risk.
Document fraud Further provisions in the bill add criminal as well as immigration related penalties for convictions involving the use of false identity documents, such as a drivers license or social security card. These provisions could be particularly dangerous for transgender immigrants who may have identity documents with different names and gender markers.
Asylum restrictions H.R. 4437 also jeopardizes the safety of LGBT asylum seekers fleeing persecution. The bill makes many people ineligible for asylum and eliminates almost all rights to federal judicial review of meritorious asylum claims. These policy changes are particularly dangerous for LGBT asylum seekers who often do not know upon arrival that persecution they suffered on account of their sexual orientation or gender identity can be a ground for asylum.
Detainees H.R. 4437 expands immigration detention and threatens to overturn Supreme Court rulings that found indefinite detention of noncitizens unconstitutional. |
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16359
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 05/08/06 8:05 am ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
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| hooper1 wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
And using your logic... damn those gays for asking for civil rights and the right to marry! Sodomy is illegal in many states. Gay marriage is illegal. How dare people even bring it up as an issue! How dare they DEMAND they be given equality!
And at least you'll admit to being a racist. I respect that. Stand up for what you believe in, but call it what it is. |
Actually sodomy isn't illegal in any state. The Supreme Court struck down all of those laws.
At least be informed if you want to try to use me as a pawn in your argument.
If you need some info, see previous rant. |
Lawrence v Texas invalidated sodomy laws insofar as they applied to noncommercial conduct in private between consenting civilian adults.
Been to Montana lately? Sodomy is still on the books there, despite Gryczan v. Montana. They never removed it. I'd be surprised if you don't see those wackos up there try to enforce it again. Check your facts.
And what about gay marriage? Still illegal unless you live in Mass.
My point is that just because something is illegal, that doesn't mean it's wrong or should be wrong. |
I didn't mention gay marriage. If you have been reading this thread, you know what I think of that issue.
If sodomy is still on the books in Montana, it is so illegally. And commercial sex in public isn't really the same thing.
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MsTena-T
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 2178
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| Posted: 05/08/06 10:13 am ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
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| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
I have really been trying to let this one pass BUT I am about to go on vacation so I figured I better let it out . . .
I have nothing against legal immigrants but I have a big problem with this Mexican immigrant thing.
1. I am not understanding how you come into somebody else's house illegally and demand that you now be made legal without going tthrough the proper channels.
2. I have a BIG BIG problem when I hear them compare their plight to to Martin L. King and the civil rights movement.
3. When I hear them say "We do the jobs that the Blacks won't do" I am not sure if that is a back-handed compliment or a straight in your face dis.
I think if illegal immigrants are granted amnesty that All American born citizens who do not have a felony should be allowed 1 illegal act (no guns) . Me I'd be at the bank make a large withdrawal. |
I take it you're not "Mexican." |
I might be! And what difference would that make? All "Mexicans" do not agree with this immigrant idea. Heard some and talk to some. So by you school of thought I need to go tell them that they are not "Mexicans" (that is what they call themselves) |
Why aren't screaming about the illegal Candadians and illegal immigrants from Europe and Spain and Africa.
I smell a racist. |
OK I am a racist, anything else you wanna label me go right ahead. One thing about me, YOUR label of me is your label. Those who know me, KNOW and those who don't speak out of ignorance (and that would be you). Regardless it does not change my opinion or make me waver one bit.
And to answer the other question posed by whoever it was: I can only speak about what I see, hear, read or experience personally. In my part of the world, I have yet to see, hear, read or experience other illegal immigrants (Canadians, Africans, Asians or whatever) DEMANDING they be given legal US citizenship because they are here. When I look at my news here in Houston be it local or national, the only illegal immigrants that are front and center are those who call themselves Mexican illegal immigrants. If that makes me a racist then guess what I am a racist. And I have not heard the national athem, THe U S National Anthem translated, recorded and sung in any other language besides Spanish. |
And using your logic... damn those gays for asking for civil rights and the right to marry! Sodomy is illegal in many states. Gay marriage is illegal. How dare people even bring it up as an issue! How dare they DEMAND they be given equality!
And at least you'll admit to being a racist. I respect that. Stand up for what you believe in, but call it what it is. |
Hmmm not sure why you quoted me in your gay issue rant but whatsenever. One difference I see in the gay illegal immagrant parrallel is that the gay CITIZENS who are demanding equality are in general LEGAL U S CITIZENS.
Yep I am a racist pure at heart and it is good that you can gather such deep dynamics of my character by viewing say one or two post in 3 weeks or whatever it has been. But those who know me and have posted with me for the last hmmmm close to 10 years KNOW! so your respect of me for sarcastically "admitting" to your ignorant characterization, basically does not mean shit to me. It does not add to or take away from my day or who I am. It is way to easy to attack me personally instead of an open adult discussion about the issue. I am like a "racist" almond joy. Sometimes I feel like a nut and sometimes I don't and today I don't.
In fact I am so rejuvenated your stupid BS is funny. Your ignorance is all over the map.
P.S. - See if you really knew me you would not have to go to the "At least you admit it" card, jackass!  ~ This conversation/board banter is OVAHHHHHH!
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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Location: Fayetteville
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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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