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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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 Posted: 01/01/24 7:47 pm ::: |
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| patsweetpat wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| WTF did Michael ever do to you? He is not being irrational or castigating: he's responding to things that HAVE HAPPENED in this vein. |
In point of fact, some of the things that Michael is "responding to" (for example: that "there are literally whole neighborhoods in the ritzy parts of LA where almost every family has a trans child, its a badge of being 'liberal enough'") HAVE NOT HAPPENED in this, or any, vein. Michael just pulled it directly out of his butt and declared it as fact. That is, indeed, an act of irrationality, Howee. |
You and I have a different definition of "irrationality". (and that's not bad: differences of opinion and experience are what make discussions like this valuable) I certainly didn't buy into his claim, either. Is it hyperbolic? Certainly. But people - in general, and even HERE - can often get hyperbolic about something they may feel passionate about. "Butt facts" abound, here 'n everywhere. That misinformation wasn't really at the heart of the Original Concern: how do we feel about Trans people in sports?
Do you really think Michael's hyperbole is deserving of him being banned, or the thread being locked? I should hope not.
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 2313
Location: Culver City, CA
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| Posted: 01/01/24 8:04 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| patsweetpat wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| WTF did Michael ever do to you? He is not being irrational or castigating: he's responding to things that HAVE HAPPENED in this vein. |
In point of fact, some of the things that Michael is "responding to" (for example: that "there are literally whole neighborhoods in the ritzy parts of LA where almost every family has a trans child, its a badge of being 'liberal enough'") HAVE NOT HAPPENED in this, or any, vein. Michael just pulled it directly out of his butt and declared it as fact. That is, indeed, an act of irrationality, Howee. |
You and I have a different definition of "irrationality". (and that's not bad: differences of opinion and experience are what make discussions like this valuable) I certainly didn't buy into his claim, either. Is it hyperbolic? Certainly. But people - in general, and even HERE - can often get hyperbolic about something they may feel passionate about. "Butt facts" abound, here 'n everywhere. That misinformation wasn't really at the heart of the Original Concern: how do we feel about Trans people in sports?
Do you really think Michael's hyperbole is deserving of him being banned, or the thread being locked? I should hope not. |
I'm, personally, agnostic on the question of whether or not the thread should be locked, or Michael should be banned. I just feel strongly that Michael shouldn't tell baldfaced lies (which the above definitively is) and pass them off as objective facts in support of the anti-trans animus which, in my opinion, he certainly appears to harbor.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 01/01/24 8:09 pm ::: |
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There is space on this board for a reasonable, rational discussion of the matter. There are people in this topic whose concerns I can appreciate as not being from a place of malice, even if I disagree with them strenuously.
I do not think this thread was going to ever be reasonable or rational given the tone of the post that originated it, which is why I've kept my personal opinions on the topic out of it. The people who would agree already agree and the people who wouldn't are, frankly, not entitled to that much insight into my life or to that much of my time and attention.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 01/01/24 10:56 pm ::: |
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| I actually don't think this topic merits much discussion, as trans athletes are likely to remain extremely rare and those that actually transition MTF will have minimal advantage (if any).
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NYSports56
Joined: 03 Jul 2018
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Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Posted: 01/02/24 5:49 am ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| There is space on this board for a reasonable, rational discussion of the matter. There are people in this topic whose concerns I can appreciate as not being from a place of malice, even if I disagree with them strenuously. |
Yup--there is absolutely a discussion to be had over trans women competing in women's sports. But I'm not having that discussion with anyone who doesn't otherwise fully support the rights of transgender people to be treated as equal and valued members of our society.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 01/02/24 10:09 am ::: |
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| One thing I've noticed in this thread is a smidge of self-righteous judgmentalism. Odd. (Or IS it?)
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 01/02/24 10:22 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| One thing I've noticed in this thread is a smidge of self-righteous judgmentalism. Odd. (Or IS it?) |
There's been lots of that in both directions
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/02/24 2:01 pm ::: |
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| patsweetpat wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| WTF did Michael ever do to you? He is not being irrational or castigating: he's responding to things that HAVE HAPPENED in this vein. |
In point of fact, some of the things that Michael is "responding to" (for example: that "there are literally whole neighborhoods in the ritzy parts of LA where almost every family has a trans child, its a badge of being 'liberal enough'") HAVE NOT HAPPENED in this, or any, vein. Michael just pulled it directly out of his butt and declared it as fact. That is, indeed, an act of irrationality, Howee. |
Exactly, and that's what I'm objecting to.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 01/02/24 3:32 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I think you are just trying to start something. Why don't we have a moderator here? And whatdoes this have to do with WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL? |
How long do you think its going to be until we have bio males on the court in a women's uniform 2 years, 4? That's why it matters. That and the opportunities that are being stolen from girls at the high school level losing out to these boys either for a position or having their season ended and their lives changed by the serious injuries they are receiving from boys on girls teams. |
TBH, the bigger issue for me with trans issues in sports - that for many reasons goes unspoken - is the female to male transition.
If the rule becomes “trans athletes play with the gender they transitioned to - then more than any gender, it will be trans men that lose the most opportunities.
Look, Paige Bueckers was playing against NBA players growing up. Yes, men have an athletic advantage, but it’s unlikely that we will see a male to female transition that truly puts female athletes at a disadvantage in basketball. It’s rare, and it would require both the skills and athleticism to beat the best women - which is unlikely to happen that frequently, if ever.
Meanwhile, the more common trans athlete is the female to male athlete. That athlete will lose opportunities because they just won’t be able to compete with the best men, or if they are able to, it’ll be significantly less opportunities and their body is more likely to break down.
IMO, it is these athletes that we need to think about when discussing where trans athletes should compete. |
A good high school men's team could beat pretty much any women's collegiate team. Any D2 men's player could be the best player in the WNBA. The differences between men and women are that great. The fastest time ever for a woman in the 100 meter dash places 1712+ on the men's side and is too slow to even qualify for the Olympics. Male practice players going against women's teams are told to play at about 80% so the women have a chance to execute their game plan. A trans woman playing in college women's ball is at this point inevitable, and he will likely be the best player in the game day one |
And I think you're a TROLL. |
Ummm, you started screeching at Michael before he even mentioned L.A. neighborhoods.
What I still haven't seen mentioned here is ANY empathy for the poor kid who got her face smashed in playing volleyball.....and yes, this may be a *one off*....for NOW. But the possibility AND probability of repeats are quite real, imo.
And - fwiw - maybe this thread should head over to the Area 51 graveyard. 
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
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| Posted: 01/02/24 4:55 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| I actually don't think this topic merits much discussion, as trans athletes are likely to remain extremely rare and those that actually transition MTF will have minimal advantage (if any). |
What's the basis of your statement that "those that actually transition MTF will have minimal advantage (if any)"? First of all it depends on whether trans athletes have transitioned with or without hormones. And then, research results have been mixed on whether there's an advantage for MTF athletes who've transitioned with hormones. For example, Dr. Timothy Roberts' study of Air Force trans athletes found that in taking hormones up to 2 years, MTF athletes still had an advantage in performing calisthenic exercises like sit-ups and push-ups, but after 2 years the advantage evened out. The data in the study also found that although their run times went down from before taking estrogen, trans women were still 12 percent faster than cis women on the 1.5 mile run. There was a Canadian report that studied the studies (a meta analysis) and came to the conclusion that the biomedical research findings were inconclusive with regard to whether there are advantages. Again, the research has been mixed; also some of the studies are scientifically legit while others are not sound.
Unfortunately, as you all know, this issue is so politicized that it's difficult to have meaningful conversations where we can bring all of the issues to the table that will help make difficult decisions. Refusing to acknowledge trans women as women doesn't help. Automatically labelling someone as transphobic or trans exclusionary because they don't support a blanket statement that every MTF trans athlete should be able to participate fully with cis women no matter the age, sport, status level (high school/NCAA/Olympics/etc.), hormone situation, etc. doesn't help. That's my 2cents. Happy New Year!
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 602
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| Posted: 01/02/24 6:26 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I think you are just trying to start something. Why don't we have a moderator here? And whatdoes this have to do with WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL? |
How long do you think its going to be until we have bio males on the court in a women's uniform 2 years, 4? That's why it matters. That and the opportunities that are being stolen from girls at the high school level losing out to these boys either for a position or having their season ended and their lives changed by the serious injuries they are receiving from boys on girls teams. |
TBH, the bigger issue for me with trans issues in sports - that for many reasons goes unspoken - is the female to male transition.
If the rule becomes “trans athletes play with the gender they transitioned to - then more than any gender, it will be trans men that lose the most opportunities.
Look, Paige Bueckers was playing against NBA players growing up. Yes, men have an athletic advantage, but it’s unlikely that we will see a male to female transition that truly puts female athletes at a disadvantage in basketball. It’s rare, and it would require both the skills and athleticism to beat the best women - which is unlikely to happen that frequently, if ever.
Meanwhile, the more common trans athlete is the female to male athlete. That athlete will lose opportunities because they just won’t be able to compete with the best men, or if they are able to, it’ll be significantly less opportunities and their body is more likely to break down.
IMO, it is these athletes that we need to think about when discussing where trans athletes should compete. |
A good high school men's team could beat pretty much any women's collegiate team. Any D2 men's player could be the best player in the WNBA. The differences between men and women are that great. The fastest time ever for a woman in the 100 meter dash places 1712+ on the men's side and is too slow to even qualify for the Olympics. Male practice players going against women's teams are told to play at about 80% so the women have a chance to execute their game plan. A trans woman playing in college women's ball is at this point inevitable, and he will likely be the best player in the game day one |
And I think you're a TROLL. |
Ummm, you started screeching at Michael before he even mentioned L.A. neighborhoods.
What I still haven't seen mentioned here is ANY empathy for the poor kid who got her face smashed in playing volleyball.....and yes, this may be a *one off*....for NOW. But the possibility AND probability of repeats are quite real, imo.
And - fwiw - maybe this thread should head over to the Area 51 graveyard. |
To STB
https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/
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Michael
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/03/24 1:20 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| Michael wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I think you are just trying to start something. Why don't we have a moderator here? And whatdoes this have to do with WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL? |
How long do you think its going to be until we have bio males on the court in a women's uniform 2 years, 4? That's why it matters. That and the opportunities that are being stolen from girls at the high school level losing out to these boys either for a position or having their season ended and their lives changed by the serious injuries they are receiving from boys on girls teams. |
TBH, the bigger issue for me with trans issues in sports - that for many reasons goes unspoken - is the female to male transition.
If the rule becomes “trans athletes play with the gender they transitioned to - then more than any gender, it will be trans men that lose the most opportunities.
Look, Paige Bueckers was playing against NBA players growing up. Yes, men have an athletic advantage, but it’s unlikely that we will see a male to female transition that truly puts female athletes at a disadvantage in basketball. It’s rare, and it would require both the skills and athleticism to beat the best women - which is unlikely to happen that frequently, if ever.
Meanwhile, the more common trans athlete is the female to male athlete. That athlete will lose opportunities because they just won’t be able to compete with the best men, or if they are able to, it’ll be significantly less opportunities and their body is more likely to break down.
IMO, it is these athletes that we need to think about when discussing where trans athletes should compete. |
A good high school men's team could beat pretty much any women's collegiate team. Any D2 men's player could be the best player in the WNBA. The differences between men and women are that great. The fastest time ever for a woman in the 100 meter dash places 1712+ on the men's side and is too slow to even qualify for the Olympics. Male practice players going against women's teams are told to play at about 80% so the women have a chance to execute their game plan. A trans woman playing in college women's ball is at this point inevitable, and he will likely be the best player in the game day one |
And I think you're a TROLL. |
Ummm, you started screeching at Michael before he even mentioned L.A. neighborhoods.
What I still haven't seen mentioned here is ANY empathy for the poor kid who got her face smashed in playing volleyball.....and yes, this may be a *one off*....for NOW. But the possibility AND probability of repeats are quite real, imo.
And - fwiw - maybe this thread should head over to the Area 51 graveyard. |
To STB
https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/ |
So the fuck what? Take your little thread over to Area 51, as suggested.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/03/24 1:21 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Michael wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I think you are just trying to start something. Why don't we have a moderator here? And whatdoes this have to do with WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL? |
How long do you think its going to be until we have bio males on the court in a women's uniform 2 years, 4? That's why it matters. That and the opportunities that are being stolen from girls at the high school level losing out to these boys either for a position or having their season ended and their lives changed by the serious injuries they are receiving from boys on girls teams. |
TBH, the bigger issue for me with trans issues in sports - that for many reasons goes unspoken - is the female to male transition.
If the rule becomes “trans athletes play with the gender they transitioned to - then more than any gender, it will be trans men that lose the most opportunities.
Look, Paige Bueckers was playing against NBA players growing up. Yes, men have an athletic advantage, but it’s unlikely that we will see a male to female transition that truly puts female athletes at a disadvantage in basketball. It’s rare, and it would require both the skills and athleticism to beat the best women - which is unlikely to happen that frequently, if ever.
Meanwhile, the more common trans athlete is the female to male athlete. That athlete will lose opportunities because they just won’t be able to compete with the best men, or if they are able to, it’ll be significantly less opportunities and their body is more likely to break down.
IMO, it is these athletes that we need to think about when discussing where trans athletes should compete. |
A good high school men's team could beat pretty much any women's collegiate team. Any D2 men's player could be the best player in the WNBA. The differences between men and women are that great. The fastest time ever for a woman in the 100 meter dash places 1712+ on the men's side and is too slow to even qualify for the Olympics. Male practice players going against women's teams are told to play at about 80% so the women have a chance to execute their game plan. A trans woman playing in college women's ball is at this point inevitable, and he will likely be the best player in the game day one |
And I think you're a TROLL. |
Ummm, you started screeching at Michael before he even mentioned L.A. neighborhoods.
What I still haven't seen mentioned here is ANY empathy for the poor kid who got her face smashed in playing volleyball.....and yes, this may be a *one off*....for NOW. But the possibility AND probability of repeats are quite real, imo.
And - fwiw - maybe this thread should head over to the Area 51 graveyard. |
To STB
https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/ |
So the fuck what? Take your little thread over to Area 51, as suggested. you are nothing but a shit stirrer.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7372
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 01/03/24 3:53 pm ::: |
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Area 51 - yes. There have been attempts to bring this conversation to a rational consideration of the facts, but every time, the OP interrupted with more extreme, emotional non facts.
There are real, complicated issues that deserve rational, fact based discussion about trans women participating in girls and womens sports. Having been around real trans women during transition with hormones, the changes in their bodies have been dramatic. While some have changed their behavior while transitioning, most report muscle loss without changing anything but taking female hormones. But my experience is all about people beyond the age of scholastic or college sports. When discussing trans girls or women participating in scholastic or intercollegiate sports, the issues are complex. Yes, it does depend on whether the girl/woman went through puberty as a male with the sudden flood of male hormones that happens. That flood of male hormones during male puberty changes the body in ways that takes years of female hormones to affect those changes.
By contrast, children who know they are trans and are able to begin transitioning to the gender they know they are before puberty can go through their teen years with a body that is within the range of cis females. Might there be more trans females at the higher end of height and muscle mass? Yes. But still within the range of cis females.
There are so many issues that deserve full, non judgmental, fact based discussions. The fact is that in the US, the judgmental right wing is not going to let these children make the transition before puberty. We do have a group of young trans women who have made the pre puberty transition prior to the right wing phobic halting of the process. These are real women seeking to find the right place where they can compete against peers at the high school and college levels. They deserve to have us discussing how to balance their rights with the rights of their peers.
As a non binary person who went through female puberty, then menopause at age 20 due to ovarian cancer all these questions are important to me. Also, as a person here who was banned from Area 51 after calling out the multitude of lies being told about covid, I can't participate in discussions there without the permission of the mod who threatened to kick me off RebKell permanently if I ever make a post in Area 51 again. And yet, I imagine the bold faced liars pulling "facts" about covid out of their lower orifice are allowed to continue doing the same without any threat.
As an athlete, how would my teen life have been different and intercollegiate participation have changed if I'd been allowed to not go through female puberty (which I was never comfortable with)? Remember I am non binary, NOT trans. I considered at age 8 if I were actually a boy, (I'm not) but at the time was not aware I was among those who is neither wholly male or wholly female. I don't know of options available to children who know they are nonbinary. Can we block female puberty and not dose ourselves with testosterone? How does that impact our growing bodies?
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15739
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 01/03/24 6:39 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| How does that impact our growing bodies? |
This has to be a multi-tiered, complex question, answered on a person-by-person basis, only.
| Michael wrote: |
| https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1143198/restrictions-transgender-paris2024-games |
I thought this statement by the IOC and other governing bodies in athletics was pretty clear, for the most part. But its parameters are NOT very forgiving.
| Quote: |
| "This does not mean encouraging people to transition before the age of 12. It's what scientists say: if you transition after the onset of puberty, you have an advantage, which is unfair," explained James Pearce, spokesman for World Aquatics President Husain Al-Musallam. |
One thing that's NOT clear is if they mean one must COMPLETE transitioning before/by age 12, or have begun significant steps by that age. Probably not a lot of trans people in that category, athletes or not.
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Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 01/03/24 10:52 pm ::: |
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Warning: Lots of rambling ahead.
I read some of the posts in this thread and it makes me wonder.
For every right we have today, a difficult - frightening to some - discussion was begun. Where would we be today if those discussions had been squashed?
Things like slavery, suffrage, abortion (such as it is right now - I still have hope). Where would we be if those voices had been quieted?
It also makes me think of the phrases "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" & "You can either be a part of the solution or a part of the problem."
You can't "fix" one issue by creating another one.
There's a reason that you can play up grade levels in sports like summer soccer, but you can't play down grade levels.
I wish there were easy answers to our problems. Unfortunately, that's not the case.
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"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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NYSports56
Joined: 03 Jul 2018
Posts: 1126
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Posted: 01/04/24 3:46 am ::: |
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| Ex-Ref wrote: |
Warning: Lots of rambling ahead.
I read some of the posts in this thread and it makes me wonder.
For every right we have today, a difficult - frightening to some - discussion was begun. Where would we be today if those discussions had been squashed?
Things like slavery, suffrage, abortion (such as it is right now - I still have hope). Where would we be if those voices had been quieted?
It also makes me think of the phrases "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" & "You can either be a part of the solution or a part of the problem."
You can't "fix" one issue by creating another one.
There's a reason that you can play up grade levels in sports like summer soccer, but you can't play down grade levels.
I wish there were easy answers to our problems. Unfortunately, that's not the case. |
This debate is being hammered as a talking point left and right everywhere by those who wish to do a lot worse things to transgender people than just keeping them out of sports. They're trying to eliminate them from society.
That's why I'll only have this conversation with those who support transgender rights, and not those who call our public schools "grooming stations" and talk about communities where transgender children are supposedly status symbols. For them, the sports discussion is a means to get their foot in the door to start spewing all of those other talking points exaggerations, and fabrications.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/04/24 12:46 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| NYSports56 wrote: |
| Ex-Ref wrote: |
Warning: Lots of rambling ahead.
I read some of the posts in this thread and it makes me wonder.
For every right we have today, a difficult - frightening to some - discussion was begun. Where would we be today if those discussions had been squashed?
Things like slavery, suffrage, abortion (such as it is right now - I still have hope). Where would we be if those voices had been quieted?
It also makes me think of the phrases "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" & "You can either be a part of the solution or a part of the problem."
You can't "fix" one issue by creating another one.
There's a reason that you can play up grade levels in sports like summer soccer, but you can't play down grade levels.
I wish there were easy answers to our problems. Unfortunately, that's not the case. |
This debate is being hammered as a talking point left and right everywhere by those who wish to do a lot worse things to transgender people than just keeping them out of sports. They're trying to eliminate them from society.
That's why I'll only have this conversation with those who support transgender rights, and not those who call our public schools "grooming stations" and talk about communities where transgender children are supposedly status symbols. For them, the sports discussion is a means to get their foot in the door to start spewing all of those other talking points exaggerations, and fabrications. |
Thank you. I am solidly cis, but have a granddaughter who is gay and a friend who is transgender and I consider myself an ally.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15739
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 01/04/24 4:30 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| NYSports56 wrote: |
| This debate is being hammered as a talking point left and right everywhere by those who wish to do a lot worse things to transgender people than just keeping them out of sports. They're trying to eliminate them from society. |
Indeed. I totally agree, BUT....I don't see that HERE, at Rebs or on this thread. If you missed it in one of his earlier posts, Michael himself has a trans child.
Even if his wording was awkward in some posts, I don't think he can be described as one of *those* people, who's anti-trans.
| NYSports56 wrote: |
| That's why I'll only have this conversation with those who support transgender rights, and not those who call our public schools "grooming stations" and talk about communities where transgender children are supposedly status symbols. For them, the sports discussion is a means to get their foot in the door to start spewing all of those other talking points exaggerations, and fabrications. |
Again, I agree with that last sentence, but I choose to roll differently than you might on the first statement: I don't mind having the discussion with those who think differently than I do, cuz THAT'S how we can cultivate positive insights. Obviously, I ain't gonna waste my breath or keystrokes on a hardcore MAGAT, but I haven't seen that here.
For example, in just this thread, I've learned a lot through rAf's sharing of a non-binary's perspective. And yeah, I've encountered other gay friends who are all agog over the pronoun *thing*, and had long discussions on how to think/approach that. I think ALL of us have room to learn and grow on this topic - shutting it down helps nothing.
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 2313
Location: Culver City, CA
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| Posted: 01/04/24 4:57 pm ::: |
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| Edit: nvm, not worth it
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3516
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| Posted: 01/07/24 4:59 pm ::: |
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| Ex-Ref wrote: |
Trans athletes need/deserve a place to play/compete. I'm not sure how this will look in the future, but I don't think that the default is that they should be playing competitively against/with cis females in high speed and contact sports. Many young girls will drop out of sports because of the disadvantage and that's not fair to them.
What is fair to everyone?? I don't know. I don't know that there is anyway to make it fair. There will be growing pains while we look for how to deal with this.
There's just a lot that we have to learn, accept as reality and figure out. |
Trans athletes need/deserve a place to play/compete. Where does that leave cis-female athletes who deserve a place to compete fairly? Trans swimmer Lia Thomas defeated her teammates, league competitors, and national level swimmers on her way to win an NCAA title, all by a substantial margin. Lia is 6'4" with a more muscular physique than the cis-swimmers. Is this a fair arrangement to them to compete against trans-athletes when they have no hope of winning an event based on size, muscle mass, and the attendant performance differential? (Lia was beaten by a trans-male.)
Photo of trans vs cis swimmers for comparison.
https://www.foxnews.com/sports/lia-thomas-olympic-aspirations-womens-advocacy-groups-silent
I think there needs to be some consistency but fairness seems unworkable. And are sports different than working as a gemologist, or astronaut, or pharmacist? I would say Yes, different based on physical attributes so there have to be differing rules depending on physical requirements of the activity. Respectfully, JMO.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
Posts: 3318
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| Posted: 01/08/24 1:34 pm ::: |
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There aren't enough trans athletes to field a trans division, in any sport, which means that the only three options are a) misgender them and force them to compete against cisgender men, b) allow them to "unfairly" compete against cisgender women or c) ban them from sports. What's interesting to me is that there's pretty much only one thing that can be done to prevent trans women from having the "unfair" advantage of additional size and muscle mass, and that's the use of puberty blockers... and most of the people who are against trans women competing in sports are against that, too.
From my point of view, it looks like the endgame is to make trans people not exist, and this "issue" is the point of entry for achieving that goal.
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 602
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| Posted: 01/08/24 3:19 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
There aren't enough trans athletes to field a trans division, in any sport, which means that the only three options are a) misgender them and force them to compete against cisgender men, b) allow them to "unfairly" compete against cisgender women or c) ban them from sports. What's interesting to me is that there's pretty much only one thing that can be done to prevent trans women from having the "unfair" advantage of additional size and muscle mass, and that's the use of puberty blockers... and most of the people who are against trans women competing in sports are against that, too.
From my point of view, it looks like the endgame is to make trans people not exist, and this "issue" is the point of entry for achieving that goal. |
There is one other option, the trans individual can wait to start hormone treatments until their athletic career is over, that way no athlete is disadvantaged. But if they do decide to transition post puberty and compete, that is their choice and it needs to be made with the knowledge that they will still compete in the gender they went through puberty in. Those trans athletes have all the choices right now, but cis girls getting hurt by trans women have only two; take the beating or get out of sports. That really is not fair to CIS women and utterly goes against the spirit of title 9. There is a reason the men play with a 8.5 foot net in volleyball, and its safety. Go back and rewatch the clip in my first message, that girl had no chance in hell of not getting knocked unconscious and having her senior year seasons ended. I watched the NCAA volleyball finals twice this year, and there was not one player on either team that got up that high to drive a spike that hard down at that severe an angle in any of those sets.
And I understand this puts the trans athlete into a difficult position of choice. BUT they have a choice, the CIS girls that get disadvantaged by having to play against trans women, their only choice is to leave the sport or play at a big disadvantage through no fault of their own.
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Michael
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