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| Trash Talking - Love It or Hate It |
| Love it - want to see more |
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15% |
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| Hate it - just play the damn game |
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45% |
[ 23 ] |
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| Total Votes : 51 |
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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 Posted: 04/07/23 7:45 am ::: Trash Talking - Part of the Game |
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| In Justin Edwards’ hometown of Philadelphia, trash talk is a necessity on the playground. He thinks the best talkers mix action with chatter — pulling on opponent’s shorts and shoestrings at the free throw line, bumping them when the officials aren’t looking and generally trying to drive them crazy to the point where they can’t focus. |
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/basketball/2023/04/07/nike-hoop-summit-trash-talk-angel-reese/11619583002/
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“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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njjosh
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/07/23 7:53 am ::: |
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| I have no problem whatsoever with the trash talking. I grew up watching Larry Bird and Michael Jordan, and they were among the crème de la crème of trash talkers. It would be hypocritical to enjoy it coming from them and lambast it from Angel Reese or Caitlin Clark or any other female athlete.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7370
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 04/08/23 11:47 am ::: |
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| njjosh wrote: |
| I have no problem whatsoever with the trash talking. I grew up watching Larry Bird and Michael Jordan, and they were among the crème de la crème of trash talkers. It would be hypocritical to enjoy it coming from them and lambast it from Angel Reese or Caitlin Clark or any other female athlete. |
To me, there is a dramatic difference between trash talking vs the much more aggressive taunting. An example I can give is Christian Laettner stomping his foot on the chest of the Kentucky player lying on the ground. IMHO, that should have resulted in immediate expulsion from the game. Note that Laettner is white and the down player was Black.
For me, the Resse vs Clark issue was ALWAYS about the aggression of Reese and NEVER about the race of the two players involved. Laettner's action remains as the more aggressive action because it involved physical contact, yet it did not lead to near the uproar. That speaks to the race based nature of the uproar about Reese as well as the fact that it involved two women.
Note that I am a Duke fan and Laettner was a Duke player. I get shouted down by Duke fans for having this view.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7822
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 04/08/23 12:19 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| njjosh wrote: |
| I have no problem whatsoever with the trash talking. I grew up watching Larry Bird and Michael Jordan, and they were among the crème de la crème of trash talkers. It would be hypocritical to enjoy it coming from them and lambast it from Angel Reese or Caitlin Clark or any other female athlete. |
To me, there is a dramatic difference between trash talking vs the much more aggressive taunting. An example I can give is Christian Laettner stomping his foot on the chest of the Kentucky player lying on the ground. IMHO, that should have resulted in immediate expulsion from the game. Note that Laettner is white and the down player was Black.
For me, the Resse vs Clark issue was ALWAYS about the aggression of Reese and NEVER about the race of the two players involved. Laettner's action remains as the more aggressive action because it involved physical contact, yet it did not lead to near the uproar. That speaks to the race based nature of the uproar about Reese as well as the fact that it involved two women.
Note that I am a Duke fan and Laettner was a Duke player. I get shouted down by Duke fans for having this view. |
Well put. Thank you, rAf.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 04/08/23 2:12 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| njjosh wrote: |
| I have no problem whatsoever with the trash talking. I grew up watching Larry Bird and Michael Jordan, and they were among the crème de la crème of trash talkers. It would be hypocritical to enjoy it coming from them and lambast it from Angel Reese or Caitlin Clark or any other female athlete. |
To me, there is a dramatic difference between trash talking vs the much more aggressive taunting. An example I can give is Christian Laettner stomping his foot on the chest of the Kentucky player lying on the ground. IMHO, that should have resulted in immediate expulsion from the game. Note that Laettner is white and the down player was Black.
For me, the Resse vs Clark issue was ALWAYS about the aggression of Reese and NEVER about the race of the two players involved. Laettner's action remains as the more aggressive action because it involved physical contact, yet it did not lead to near the uproar. That speaks to the race based nature of the uproar about Reese as well as the fact that it involved two women.
Note that I am a Duke fan and Laettner was a Duke player. I get shouted down by Duke fans for having this view. |
Well put. Thank you, rAf. |
Thank you. I want to completely disassociate myself from all the fragile white people who've made Angel's actions into a racial kerfuffle. It has been embarrassingly ridiculous.
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Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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njjosh
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/08/23 6:45 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| njjosh wrote: |
| I have no problem whatsoever with the trash talking. I grew up watching Larry Bird and Michael Jordan, and they were among the crème de la crème of trash talkers. It would be hypocritical to enjoy it coming from them and lambast it from Angel Reese or Caitlin Clark or any other female athlete. |
To me, there is a dramatic difference between trash talking vs the much more aggressive taunting. An example I can give is Christian Laettner stomping his foot on the chest of the Kentucky player lying on the ground. IMHO, that should have resulted in immediate expulsion from the game. Note that Laettner is white and the down player was Black.
For me, the Resse vs Clark issue was ALWAYS about the aggression of Reese and NEVER about the race of the two players involved. Laettner's action remains as the more aggressive action because it involved physical contact, yet it did not lead to near the uproar. That speaks to the race based nature of the uproar about Reese as well as the fact that it involved two women.
Note that I am a Duke fan and Laettner was a Duke player. I get shouted down by Duke fans for having this view. |
Fair point. I remember the Christian Laettner play you mentioned. Kentucky fans are still up in arms about it to this day, especially given how the rest of that game unfolded (Laettner going 10-10 from the field, 10-10 from the line, and hitting the winning shot at the horn).
That said, I define stomping on the Kentucky player’s chest to be a dirty play, a physical cheap shot. That’s very different from trash talking. And unless I missed something last Sunday, nothing I saw from Angel Reese can be described as a “dirty play.” Taunting, perhaps, but nothing beyond the pale.
And FWIW, Reese said this week that she has no beef with Caitlin Clark, only with the double standard others have applied to them.
https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports/ncaa/lsu/angel-reese-no-beef-caitlin-clark-first-lady/289-e562310e-8b71-43f0-801b-8cef20201a51
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7370
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 04/09/23 12:01 am ::: |
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| njjosh wrote: |
| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| njjosh wrote: |
| I have no problem whatsoever with the trash talking. I grew up watching Larry Bird and Michael Jordan, and they were among the crème de la crème of trash talkers. It would be hypocritical to enjoy it coming from them and lambast it from Angel Reese or Caitlin Clark or any other female athlete. |
To me, there is a dramatic difference between trash talking vs the much more aggressive taunting. An example I can give is Christian Laettner stomping his foot on the chest of the Kentucky player lying on the ground. IMHO, that should have resulted in immediate expulsion from the game. Note that Laettner is white and the down player was Black.
For me, the Resse vs Clark issue was ALWAYS about the aggression of Reese and NEVER about the race of the two players involved. Laettner's action remains as the more aggressive action because it involved physical contact, yet it did not lead to near the uproar. That speaks to the race based nature of the uproar about Reese as well as the fact that it involved two women.
Note that I am a Duke fan and Laettner was a Duke player. I get shouted down by Duke fans for having this view. |
Fair point. I remember the Christian Laettner play you mentioned. Kentucky fans are still up in arms about it to this day, especially given how the rest of that game unfolded (Laettner going 10-10 from the field, 10-10 from the line, and hitting the winning shot at the horn).
That said, I define stomping on the Kentucky player’s chest to be a dirty play, a physical cheap shot. That’s very different from trash talking. And unless I missed something last Sunday, nothing I saw from Angel Reese can be described as a “dirty play.” Taunting, perhaps, but nothing beyond the pale.
And FWIW, Reese said this week that she has no beef with Caitlin Clark, only with the double standard others have applied to them.
https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports/ncaa/lsu/angel-reese-no-beef-caitlin-clark-first-lady/289-e562310e-8b71-43f0-801b-8cef20201a51 |
To me, Angel engaged in aggressive taunting. She did not make physical contact, which does put it in a very different category from Laettner. Can you imagine the outrage if it had been a Black player stomping on a white player?
But, back to Angel. While I do think/believe/know that a hefty amount of people complaining are fragile white people who just can't stand a Black person doing "that" to a white player, I would really, truly like to see acknowledgement that her behavior was radically different from what I've seen any other women's player engage in. It simply was NOT 'the same as what Caitlin did." A player that excited about winning starts jumping up and hugging their TEAMMATES, not chasing an opponent around the floor. And, since it seems to be the rage among some, go ahead and flash that sign at your opponent, maybe even the whole team doing it. I really don't care at all about "the sign." It's the chasing that was TO ME out of line.
I again emphasize I do not want to be grouped in any way with the fragile white people going on and on and on about Angel, using code words fraught with racial connotations.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/09/23 5:51 am ::: |
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Last edited by readyAIMfire53 on 04/09/23 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MsProudSooner
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 04/09/23 7:57 am ::: |
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| I decided the best way to respond if a player is taunting you after a game is to reach out to shake their hand and offer congratulations on a good game. It took me a week to come up with this idea so I realize most players aren't going to think of it in the heat of the moment but it would defuse the situation and deflate the taunter.
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Ex-Ref
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/10/23 12:41 am ::: |
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Very interesting and more nuanced take on the whole episode. Trash talkers like Caitlin need to acknowledge when they've been beat. It's part of "trash talking code." Cheryl doesn't buy that Caitlin wasn't aware that Angel was trying to get her to see her gestures as she says Caitlin knows what's happening on every square inch of the floor.
Now, Caitlin was very raw for the ridiculous technical called on her (in addition to the two bogus offensive fouls early in the game) Still, she has to develop the ability to lose gracefully and accept on the court the trash talking coming back at her.
That got me thinking, in order for Angel to chase her, Caitlin had to be actively avoiding her. The black/white issue has always been part of professional basketball and everyone can learn to handle it better.
My having been chased, caught and tortured in my past, it did not occur to me that Caitlin did not have to act like prey because there was no predator.
Coming for the first great trash talker to hit women's basketball, her take is meaningful to me. She's also my favorite baller ever. Those of you too young to have seen her play and brash behavior on the court might not appreciate it as much as I do.
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Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
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| Posted: 04/10/23 10:43 am ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
Very interesting and more nuanced take on the whole episode. Trash talkers like Caitlin need to acknowledge when they've been beat. It's part of "trash talking code." Cheryl doesn't buy that Caitlin wasn't aware that Angel was trying to get her to see her gestures as she says Caitlin knows what's happening on every square inch of the floor.
Now, Caitlin was very raw for the ridiculous technical called on her (in addition to the two bogus offensive fouls early in the game) Still, she has to develop the ability to lose gracefully and accept on the court the trash talking coming back at her.
That got me thinking, in order for Angel to chase her, Caitlin had to be actively avoiding her. The black/white issue has always been part of professional basketball and everyone can learn to handle it better.
My having been chased, caught and tortured in my past, it did not occur to me that Caitlin did not have to act like prey because there was no predator.
Coming for the first great trash talker to hit women's basketball, her take is meaningful to me. She's also my favorite baller ever. Those of you too young to have seen her play and brash behavior on the court might not appreciate it as much as I do. |
Good read. Loved "Oh, she saw it,’’ Miller said. “Trust me, she saw it. You can’t be a great passer and have that peripheral vision and not see Angel.’’ 
I was a big Cheryl Miller fan back in the day and got to see her play in person once when USC played Mizzou in the early 80s. Everybody knew Cheryl Miller & USC were coming to town and I'd never seen that many people in the arena. It was crazy. Of course USC won.
I disagree with you about the fouls on Clark. IF she hadn't received a warning prior to the technical then I would agree. And with the offensive fouls, I think Clark needs to be smoother with her push-offs, not so blatant. I'm amazed that she gets away with it as much as she does. She'll practice getting better at using that off arm over the summer (and may even watch some film of the best who do it in the NBA &WNBA).
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 04/10/23 7:54 pm ::: |
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Mental focus.
That's the skill that trash talking aims itself at. It can actually make you a better athlete, if you can steel yourself to NOT react. Focus is so key in all sports, and if trash talk is happening/allowed, then let it prod you into yet another, higher level of performance.
To me, if one relies on trash talk for some advantage, they're either covering for some deficiency in their game, or they're just assholes. Maybe it's warranted in Boxing or MMA, but in sports where specific skills are one's advantage over an opponent, it's just low, imo.
It's not exactly the same, but my collegiate sport was tennis. Even there, trash talking could happen. But often it came more in the form of an opponent being belligerent and hollering, cussing, questioning a call, etc. I loved when that happened, cuz it just told me my opponent was NOT focusing on the game, and the quieter I'd be, the more non-reactive I'd be, the easier the match was.
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 04/10/23 8:50 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
Mental focus.
That's the skill that trash talking aims itself at. It can actually make you a better athlete, if you can steel yourself to NOT react. Focus is so key in all sports, and if trash talk is happening/allowed, then let it prod you into yet another, higher level of performance.
To me, if one relies on trash talk for some advantage, they're either covering for some deficiency in their game, or they're just assholes. Maybe it's warranted in Boxing or MMA, but in sports where specific skills are one's advantage over an opponent, it's just low, imo.
It's not exactly the same, but my collegiate sport was tennis. Even there, trash talking could happen. But often it came more in the form of an opponent being belligerent and hollering, cussing, questioning a call, etc. I loved when that happened, cuz it just told me my opponent was NOT focusing on the game, and the quieter I'd be, the more non-reactive I'd be, the easier the match was. |
I agree with Howee.
What do you think had a larger impact on Reese?
Clark saying, "Yeah, you got me."
Clark saying, "I didn't see it."
For those old enough to remember the deodorant commercial, "Never let 'em see you sweat."
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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Ex-Ref
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 04/13/23 4:58 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
Mental focus.
That's the skill that trash talking aims itself at. It can actually make you a better athlete, if you can steel yourself to NOT react. Focus is so key in all sports, and if trash talk is happening/allowed, then let it prod you into yet another, higher level of performance.
To me, if one relies on trash talk for some advantage, they're either covering for some deficiency in their game, or they're just assholes. Maybe it's warranted in Boxing or MMA, but in sports where specific skills are one's advantage over an opponent, it's just low, imo.
It's not exactly the same, but my collegiate sport was tennis. Even there, trash talking could happen. But often it came more in the form of an opponent being belligerent and hollering, cussing, questioning a call, etc. I loved when that happened, cuz it just told me my opponent was NOT focusing on the game, and the quieter I'd be, the more non-reactive I'd be, the easier the match was. |
Your reaction was correct for you. Others use trash to pump themselves up more than trying to intimidate, although intimidation works against the doubters and those with good reason to feel unconfident.
If you played unsupervised and un-officiated games in your youth you are more likely to trash talk because on a playground court you had to stick up for yourself. And it's what friends do while competeing. I played a lot of golf in a group of maybe 20 players and over the years we accumulated any number of things to use verbally against one another to raise each others' stress levels. And we all pretended as if we were unaffected by it.
I think the media tries too hard to portray female players as "Jill Armstrongs, all american girls", when in reality they are tough, competitive and use foul language on the court.
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