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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: New York
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 Posted: 09/09/22 5:21 pm ::: |
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| ridor wrote: |
| Already did. Thanks for the advice, racist. |
Ahhhh, there it is! Be good.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 09/09/22 5:24 pm ::: |
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| ridor wrote: |
| Already did. Thanks for the advice, racist. |
Please don't encourage the white persecution complex.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 09/09/22 5:59 pm ::: |
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Reading this thread, I had to chuckle at how quickly (and in most cases predictably) people here are absolutely 100% doubt free about whether this incident did or did not occur without the slightest concern for the actual facts and based entirely on their pre-conceived biases and desired outcome.
Personally, upon first hearing the story and considering my general view of the reputation of BYU, I assumed it all happened as reported, and I remain today highly skeptical that this Duke player would just make this up from thin air, BUT, it is also strange that the police as well as the school have apparently reviewed many videos and recordings of the relevant time periods at the game and interviewed many people including people associated with Duke and claim to have found no evidence and no witnesses to support the allegations. We'll probably never know, but it would perhaps explain why the Duke coaches and officials didn't do or say anything at the time of the alleged incident, maybe because they didn't hear anything at the time to cause them concern.
I tend to give accusers in these instances, just like in sexual assault situations, the benefit of the doubt, in part because it's typically a no-win proposition for the accuser. All of the inertia is generally against sticking your neck out to complain. Even if it's all true, the accuser inevitably suffers significant abuse. But that doesn't mean that no accusations are ever false. And our own assumptions about whether the alleged act occurred are generally more dependent on our own biases and what we prefer to be true than on actual facts because we have no real way to determine the truth (Which is why the spread of readily available video and to a lesser extend DNA has been such a game changer in so many instances. When we can all see six police officers holding down a victim while he suffocates, there's not much room for genuine dispute, notwithstanding the police coverup.)
There's another very real possibility that no one seems to be discussing, and that's the possibility that the Duke player heard something that she thought was a racial slur, but wasn't. I expect she completely believes there were racial slurs directed at her, but maybe she mis-heard. Which would be an unfortunate situation for all involved, if true. But is certainly possible. Of course it doesn't satisfy either side or agenda, so there's no one really advocating that possibility. Everyone speaking publicly wants it to be either all true, or all made up. There is no acceptable middle possibility.
The one thing that jumped out at me though is that Dawn Staley will never pass up an opportunity for self-promotion and for embellishing her self-appointment as leader, trailblazer, hero, and savior of all black WBB players and coaches (which I find rather insulting to people like C Vivian Stringer and others who worked their asses off to mark and groom and blaze that trail long before Dawn came along). I don't believe she cares whether the incident actually happened or not as long as it benefits her, and I suspect she thinks the flack she's getting from some wackjob right wing South Carolina politicians to be the best possible outcome for her as it simply further underscores and enhances her "victimhood." (Actually, their idiotic contrived outrage at cancellation of the basketball game may be more offensive than the original incident. I don't know if there was racist taunting in Provo, but the frivolous and overheated attacks by the "South Carolina Freedom Caucus" on Staley are rather transparently racist, from where I sit.) Does she think that every school in the country should refuse to play at BYU? In every sport? Forever? Men and women? Because that seems to be the logical outgrowth of her action. If not, then she should have just kept her nose out of it. But pass up an opportunity for self promotion? Nah.
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ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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Location: Frederick, Maryland
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| Posted: 09/09/22 8:33 pm ::: |
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ArtBest, that's the problem with you. You think what Staley did is going to reflect on other teams in refusing to play BYU. That was NOT her intention. Her intention was to protect her coaches and players, that's it. If the coaches and the players does not feel comfortable playing BYU, Staley will cancel it outright. That is who Staley is. She'll do anything to ensure that her players and coaches' well-beings comes first.
What the other schools wanted to do is not her responsibility to begin with. Hell, send Geno to BYU - at least he would feel comfortable being in Provo which I cannot say the same thing for myself.
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singinerd54
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 1817
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: 09/09/22 8:47 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| Your arguments are examples of the slippery slope logical fallacy: "You said that if we allow A to happen, then Z will eventually happen too, therefore A should not happen. The problem with this reasoning is that it avoids engaging with the issue at hand, and instead shifts attention to extreme hypotheticals. |
I believe YOUR logic is quite flawed here, and not analogous: I see this as more a case of, "If A is determined to be the proper, protective protocol, then why isn't it necessary that ALL must follow protocol 'A'?" If one team deems it necessary to deal with problem in fashion A, isn't it incumbent on ALL teams to follow suit? My OPINION: this concept is an (unspoken) implication - there's nothing hypothetical about the implication. What IS hypothetical is how others will respond or react. |
True, it was more FrozenLVFan's argument that closely tracked on to that quote. My answer (as you've already read from other posts) is that each coach is best suited to decide things like this for their team. To use a cliche, it's not a one-size-fits-all case.
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Does she think that every school in the country should refuse to play at BYU? In every sport? Forever? Men and women? Because that seems to be the logical outgrowth of her action. If not, then she should have just kept her nose out of it. But pass up an opportunity for self promotion? Nah. |
I haven't gotten that impression from the quotes I've seen. Is there something Dawn said or did that makes you think she might think that or is that your interpretation of the implication (which seems similar to Howee's thinking above, where you can also see my opinion)?
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| There's another very real possibility that no one seems to be discussing, and that's the possibility that the Duke player heard something that she thought was a racial slur, but wasn't. I expect she completely believes there were racial slurs directed at her, but maybe she mis-heard. Which would be an unfortunate situation for all involved, if true. But is certainly possible. Of course it doesn't satisfy either side or agenda, so there's no one really advocating that possibility. Everyone speaking publicly wants it to be either all true, or all made up. There is no acceptable middle possibility. |
I've been thinking along these lines. Like others have alluded to, I assume that something was repeatedly said/yelled when Richardson was serving (note that this doesn't assume it was said/yelled at her). We will likely never know (unless video surfaces, which wouldn't surprise me if it does), but I'm curious to know what what that something was.
| ucbart wrote: |
I mean, BYU did interview some Duke players and staff members who said they never heard anything. Not to mention the fact that BYU mens basketball team, many of whom are black, were sitting mere feet from the area the alleged slurs were being yelled from. Surely if Rachel could hear them while she was serving on the court, the men's basketball players would've heard and subsequently done something about it.
Sorry, but this is totally made up and there is far more evidence that it didn't happen than there is that it did. I blame the godmother, but ultimately, Rachel is the one to blame. Fortunately for her, there will be 0 consequences for fabricating this story. And the ones who do call her out and hold her accountable, will be labeled racists. |
Not finding evidence that it happened is not the same as finding evidence that it didn't happen. Before you spout off about that, take a minute to think about it.
| ucbart wrote: |
| What's been done to the fan in question is absolutely horrifying and the fact that she gets to live on this lie while he's persecuted, is vile. |
He was banned for 13 days and has been reinstated. What persecution will he be enduring and who will be persecuting him?
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 09/09/22 9:25 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
There's another very real possibility that no one seems to be discussing, and that's the possibility that the Duke player heard something that she thought was a racial slur, but wasn't. I expect she completely believes there were racial slurs directed at her, but maybe she mis-heard. Which would be an unfortunate situation for all involved, if true. But is certainly possible. Of course it doesn't satisfy either side or agenda, so there's no one really advocating that possibility. Everyone speaking publicly wants it to be either all true, or all made up. There is no acceptable middle possibility.
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This is exactly what I was thinking when I wrote what I did. The fact is likely that every Black player has heard racial slurs thrown their way and when someone shouts specifically at them, they could easily hear it that way. As I've stated, I think the incident could have been handled better than it was. I do agree that it is wise to believe them just as it's wise to believe a woman who says she's been assaulted. Quietly bring in the accused person and investigate to determine the facts of the case. In US history, it has been predominantly white women falsely accusing Black men of assaults for racist reasons. There has been exactly one case of a Black woman falsely accusing a white man. False accusations by a Black woman are rare. Slurs and assaults of Black women are common.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 09/09/22 9:38 pm ::: |
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| ridor wrote: |
| ArtBest, that's the problem with you. You think what Staley did is going to reflect on other teams in refusing to play BYU. That was NOT her intention. |
Go back and read my post. I think I was pretty clear. I don't think Staley cares if anyone plays BYU, or even about her own games with BYU. A total boycott would be the obvious logical outgrowth of her position, but I don't think she believes it should be done. Which just underscores that her sticking her nose in where she has no business is just a self-promotion publicity stunt. Her carefully managed image is the foundation for her recruiting strategy among other things. And the state political hacks played right into it and unintentionally helped give her even more publicity.
Of course she was in such a rush to be the first that she didn't even pause to see if more facts came out. Because she didn't care what the facts were, only that she could seize the publicity.
All she has done is distract from the real issue and divert the spotlight from the incident and BYU response onto herself. How does help the Duke player or anyone but herself?
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 09/09/22 9:53 pm ::: |
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| singinerd54 wrote: |
Not finding evidence that it happened is not the same as finding evidence that it didn't happen. Before you spout off about that, take a minute to think about it.
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Not necessarily true. If you have video of the person in question during the period in question then you can prove the negative. If you interview the people sitting right in front of the person in question and they heard nothing, then it's likely there was nothing. The notion you can't prove the absence of conduct is a falacy.
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singinerd54
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
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Location: Missouri
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| Posted: 09/09/22 10:37 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| Not finding evidence that it happened is not the same as finding evidence that it didn't happen. Before you spout off about that, take a minute to think about it. |
Not necessarily true. If you have video of the person in question during the period in question then you can prove the negative. If you interview the people sitting right in front of the person in question and they heard nothing, then it's likely there was nothing. The notion you can't prove the absence of conduct is a falacy. |
Right, and I didn't say you couldn't prove the absence of conduct.. But not finding evidence that something happened (e.g., interviewing people) is not the same as finding evidence that it didn't happen (e.g., video of the fan in question while Richardson was serving). The BYU report (like the South Carolina one that others have mentioned) did not find evidence that the slur was said, which is not the same as proving that the slur didn't happen.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 09/10/22 12:41 am ::: |
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| singinerd54 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| Not finding evidence that it happened is not the same as finding evidence that it didn't happen. Before you spout off about that, take a minute to think about it. |
Not necessarily true. If you have video of the person in question during the period in question then you can prove the negative. If you interview the people sitting right in front of the person in question and they heard nothing, then it's likely there was nothing. The notion you can't prove the absence of conduct is a falacy. |
Right, and I didn't say you couldn't prove the absence of conduct.. But not finding evidence that something happened (e.g., interviewing people) is not the same as finding evidence that it didn't happen (e.g., video of the fan in question while Richardson was serving). The BYU report (like the South Carolina one that others have mentioned) did not find evidence that the slur was said, which is not the same as proving that the slur didn't happen. |
Actually the news reports I have read said the police have indeed collected and watched the surveillance video and the conduct doesn't occur. Also, after the initial complaint, an office watched the alleged perpetrator the entire fourth set and saidhe never yelled anything even though the player said it continued until the end of the game.
I wasn't there and don't claim to know what occurred but your effort to brush aside the evidence the investigation reportedly found is strained and misplaced. I know it's inconvenient, but that's what's been reported by credible sources.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 09/10/22 7:00 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
There's another very real possibility that no one seems to be discussing, and that's the possibility that the Duke player heard something that she thought was a racial slur, but wasn't. |
The gym was packed and very loud, obviously with fans chanting and yelling lots of things. I read one one suggestion by an attendee who suggested that Richardson may have heard the chant of the word "Cougar" or "Cougars" and, in the din, misinterpreted it as the n-word.
HERE is the full statement by BYU after their investigation.
By the way, I don't recall reading anywhere that Staley said she was concerned about violence. She said she never talked to Richardson or anyone at Duke about the incident, or even anyone on her own team, before making her decision. All she said is that she is doing what is "best" for her team, whatever that means, and she said somewhere that she was concerned that she wouldn't know what to say as a coach to one of her players who had to hear a racial insult.
I've seen and heard a lot of ugly things said and yelled at basketball games over 70 years, and I supposed anything could have happened somewhere, but I don't ever recall any physical violence perpetrated by fans on players in a WBB game at any level. I think I recall an NBA player going into the stands after a fan once, but I can't recall the details. And, of course, there have been many incidents of players fighting with players. |
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 09/10/22 10:02 am ::: |
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I still haven't heard any reasonable rationale for Staley immediately taking Richardson's account at face value after discounting Michaelis's report of a similar alleged incident at SC. On one hand, she's afraid her team will suffer if they're exposed to racial taunts, and on the other, it's just a lie if the alleged taunts are directed at her opponents. There's a lot of hypocrisy here.
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| I've seen and heard a lot of ugly things said and yelled at basketball games over 70 years, and I supposed anything could have happened somewhere, but I don't ever recall any physical violence perpetrated by fans on players in a WBB game at any level. I think I recall an NBA player going into the stands after a fan once, but I can't recall the details. And, of course, there have been many incidents of players fighting with players. |
There have been a lot of physical altercations between NFL/NHL/MLB/NBA/Premier League players and fans over the years, most usually started by fans taunting or spitting or throwing stuff like bottles at players, and a lot of the incidents weren't racially motivated. Seems far less likely to happen at college basketball games if alcohol isn't available at the concession stands.
A smattering of same...https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1965346-15-instances-of-athletes-fighting-fans
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 09/10/22 5:42 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
There's another very real possibility that no one seems to be discussing, and that's the possibility that the Duke player heard something that she thought was a racial slur, but wasn't. |
The gym was packed and very loud, obviously with fans chanting and yelling lots of things. I read one one suggestion by an attendee who suggested that Richardson may have heard the chant of the word "Cougar" or "Cougars" and, in the din, misinterpreted it as the n-word.
HERE is the full statement by BYU after their investigation.
By the way, I don't recall reading anywhere that Staley said she was concerned about violence. She said she never talked to Richardson or anyone at Duke about the incident, or even anyone on her own team, before making her decision. All she said is that she is doing what is "best" for her team, whatever that means, and she said somewhere that she was concerned that she wouldn't know what to say as a coach to one of her players who had to hear a racial insult.
I've seen and heard a lot of ugly things said and yelled at basketball games over 70 years, and I supposed anything could have happened somewhere, but I don't ever recall any physical violence perpetrated by fans on players in a WBB game at any level. I think I recall an NBA player going into the stands after a fan once, but I can't recall the details. And, of course, there have been many incidents of players fighting with players. |
As a female, I can tell you that, when hearing a man using an anti-female slur, I don't stick around to see what he'll do. Same with people of color, gay and trans people. Too often what happens next is violent - which is NOT saying the violence ALWAYS follows. Anyone who cares about their own safety is going to get the hell out. And this actually is part of good martial arts training - the best way to end a fight is to not start one. I learn how to cause serious harm to others, with the hope I never have to use that knowledge.
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 09/10/22 7:56 pm ::: |
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Seems pretty clear that Dawn over-reacted.
Has she swallowed her pride yet and rescheduled the games? Or is she sticking to her guns come hell or high water?
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"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 09/11/22 4:53 am ::: |
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Reported by credible sources?!? Anything that came from BYU/Provo is not credible.
I live in Idaho, there is another BYU in Rexburg, Idaho. There is an article that emerged from EastIdahoNews.com that a family was shaken when they found the racial slur painted on their fence. That area is close to BYU campus. The family is BIPOC.
As you can see, it is a problem at BYU campuses. It does happen and often the schools would undergo the investigations and claimed that they did not do it.
A homophobic incident occurred few years ago where LGBT students were physically assaulted by a white male BYU student and the school investigated and exonerated him in the process.
It is an ongoing problem at BYU campuses but BYU and its communities *always* came up to deny this repeatedly. That's how they operated from day one.
ArtBest said Dawn tends to stick her nose in situations that she has no business to be part of. Excuse me, she is Black woman. She is entitled to say whatever is on her mind. If you felt that she was doing this to milk the attention for recruiting wars, that is your opinion, too.
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ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 09/11/22 4:57 am ::: |
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| As far as I am concerned, I am glad Dawn cancelled the series. When I first learned that she would have home-and-home game series with BYU, I was appalled. Now I'm glad it will never happen. Good riddance.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 09/11/22 7:22 am ::: |
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| ridor wrote: |
It is an ongoing problem at BYU campuses but BYU and its communities *always* came up to deny this repeatedly. That's how they operated from day one.
ArtBest said Dawn tends to stick her nose in situations that she has no business to be part of. Excuse me, she is Black woman. She is entitled to say whatever is on her mind. If you felt that she was doing this to milk the attention for recruiting wars, that is your opinion, too. |
Notwithstanding any problems you have with BYU, Staley knew perfectly well who they were and obviously didn't have any problem playing them when she booked the game.
Is BYU any different today than it was when she lined up the games? No
Did this alleged incident involve her team? No
Did this alleged incident involve her school? No
Did this alleged incident involve her sport? No
She's a grandstanding opportunist. Whether it's pure ego or recruiting advantage or both is up to you.
That anybody has any "right" to say anything they want to say doesn't alter that or have anything to do with anything that's been said in this entire thread by anyone.
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elsie
Joined: 08 Apr 2016
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| Posted: 09/12/22 10:35 pm ::: |
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almost all of these racial incidents turn out to be hoax's done by the supposed aggrieved racial group.....except its never reported on page one...its buried deep in section C...Jesse Smollet again and again and again....
I detest BYU but I never doubt their integrity....just their teams.....SC...???questionable especially with Staley acting like some prima donna.....
BYU should sue for loss of revenue from those games... perhaps the fan booted should sue the player personally....its the only way this nonsense will end.....perhaps if the SC player feels so strongly about what happened she should pursue a legal remedy, like her going under oath....and then they can bring in all the cops, officials, fans, coaches, trainers etc who never heard the supposed insults....
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ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 09/13/22 1:08 am ::: |
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| elsie, just sit down and be quiet.
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ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 09/13/22 1:09 am ::: |
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| ArtBest, I absolutely don't care about your points. I am just glad Staley cancelled the series. Good riddance.
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 09/13/22 7:44 am ::: |
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Staley overreacted to a perceived wrong that didn't even involve her.
She needs to Philly up, apologize and get the games back on (if BYU is even willing at this point - not sure I'd want to go to SC to play if I were them.)
It takes a lot for me to have sympathy for BYU (my white, non-LDS SIL is from Utah), but Staley has accomplished that.
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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RHSibley
Joined: 25 May 2018
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| Posted: 09/13/22 7:55 am ::: |
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So during this entire match, this player is being harassed, and no one on her team heard it? Or if her team heard it, they didn't say something? Protest?
There is much more to this story. I imagine there is film of this match and it should be released.
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Howee
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FrozenLVFan
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 09/13/22 4:00 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| RHSibley wrote: |
So during this entire match, this player is being harassed, and no one on her team heard it? Or if her team heard it, they didn't say something? Protest?
There is much more to this story. I imagine there is film of this match and it should be released. |
Interesting point; I don't think I've heard any reference to a teammate hearing the same thing, which should be axiomatic, no?  |
I think she allegedly heard it because she was serving, and the fan was supposed to be directly behind her. BYU has since decided to remove fans from that area during games. OTOH, some of her teammates were ? 10-12 feet in front of her, and I would have thought someone else would have heard it too. |
This is from the Sept 9 Deseret News:
During the match on Aug. 26, Duke outside hitter Rachel Richardson said she heard racial slurs during the second set while she served two balls in front of the ROC student section of fans.
She told a teammate about the slurs while the teams switched sides of the court following the set, and the two players told Duke coach Jolene Nagel. Nagel spoke with BYU coach Heather Olmstead, and BYU immediately sent a police officer and four ushers into the student section.
Richardson said she heard the slurs more intensely in the fourth set, when the ushers, BYU Police Det. Sgt. Richard Laursen and a Duke assistant athletic director stood near where she served and by the student section.
“I told the (BYU) Athletic staff that I never heard one racial comment being made,” Laursen said in his police report.
After the match, BYU banned a fan who Duke said had used the N-word and had made a player uncomfortable after the match. The fan is not a BYU student.
Laursen stood next to the man throughout the fourth set and said the man did not use any racist language. Laursen said he believed the man may have “(A)sperger syndrome or could have autism.”[/i]
The newspaper also reported:
The investigation included reaching out to more than 50 eyewitnesses, including Duke and BYU volleyball players and athletic department personnel. The university also said its investigation reviewed extensive video and audio of the match.
“We reviewed all available video and audio recordings, including security footage and raw footage from all camera angles taken by BYUtv of the match, with broadcasting audio removed (to ensure that the noise from the stands could be heard more clearly),” the BYU release said.
Meanwhile Richarsdon told Holly Rowe that "in the fourth set, with Duke’s players once again near the ROC, “it was almost as if the atmosphere of the student section had changed” to become collectively aggressive. “Even my Black teammates on the bench who don’t play, they were being called out and pointed at. It was really confusing as to why.”"
Now, even recognizing that this a BYU police officer and the newspaper is LDS owned, the disconnect is striking.
As far as I have seen reported, no one, not a single fan, player, coach, police officer or anyone else, from Duke, BYU or one of the other participating schools, other than Richardson and her relatives, has come forward to say they heard the alleged comments.
As I said much earlier, given BYU's reputation, I assumed the allegations were true when I first heard them, but at a certain point it would be nice to see some evidence.
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