| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
 Posted: 09/03/22 11:45 am ::: |
Reply  |
|
| Conway Gamecock wrote: |
| You have read other comments here from others that state that this type of situation is common for BYU fans and for that area. The Missouri incident involving USC is the ONLY time under Staley's tenure that such accusations ever took place.... |
Obviously, "comments here from others" = purely anecdotal, in need of further verification to be truly relevant. Also, I have a hard time believing that the Missouri kids 'invented' the accusations, or that the hard-core SC fans have always been uber-angelic. Dawn's blanket vindication/endorsement of any/all fan behavior is not her best look, either, homerism nothwithstanding. Yet.... I can't imagine she'd tolerate any racial denigration from fans, if she was aware of it.
| pilight wrote: |
| Conway Gamecock wrote: |
| How is that audit in Arizona coming along? No such "incident" happened in South Carolina, and was proven to not have happened. The school DID take action in coordination with the SEC, and determined there was no "there" there to take punitive action against... |
Nothing happened at SC in much the same way that nothing happened at BYU
https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2022/08/duke-volleyball-byu-police-report-banned-fan
| Quote: |
| Brigham Young University police say that the fan who was banned after Friday’s volleyball match against Duke does not appear to have said a racial slur |
|
So. If the above is accurate, then....isn't a bit disingenuous for Dawn to be taking a stand against a school for precisely what her own school was blamed for? That is, SC was blamed and acquitted of racial indignities, as was BYU....but she won't go THERE.
It can be debated ad nauseum, and part of me wants to attribute it to our current devolution in general civil discourse, but I think back to instances like Lisa Leslie playing at Tennessee - none of it's really new. Unfortunately, it's likely to continue, and maybe Dawn's 'stand' might bring more focus to the problem.
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66912
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/03/22 1:08 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| My opinion is that Staley is overreacting |
What makes you able to more accurately assess the situation than Staley? |
Without knowing what special insight Staley might have into an incident that happened thousands of miles from her campus between two schools she doesn't represent playing a sport she doesn't coach it is impossible to answer this question
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
singinerd54
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 1817
Location: Missouri
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/03/22 1:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| My opinion is that Staley is overreacting |
What makes you able to more accurately assess the situation than Staley? |
Without knowing what special insight Staley might have into an incident that happened thousands of miles from her campus between two schools she doesn't represent playing a sport she doesn't coach it is impossible to answer this question |
The question was what makes YOU able to accurately assess the situation. Please tell us about the special insight you have.
You're welcome to answer that on your own, but if you'd like a few more specific questions: What experience do you have coaching an elite Division 1 sports team? What experience do you have as a Black woman (navigating racism) in the United States? What experience do you have with this South Carolina team to make a decision that impacts them?
|
|
singinerd54
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 1817
Location: Missouri
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/03/22 1:26 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| Without knowing what special insight Staley might have into an incident that happened thousands of miles from her campus between two schools she doesn't represent playing a sport she doesn't coach it is impossible to answer this question |
Also, if you don't know the special insight Staley might have, what is the basis for your opinion that she is overreacting?
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
|
singinerd54
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 1817
Location: Missouri
Back to top |
|
ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Frederick, Maryland
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/03/22 3:23 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| It is interesting that you neglected to mention that Dawn Staley sued the Mizzou AD and won the case. Forced him to apologize for lying as well.
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3515
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/03/22 4:14 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ridor wrote: |
| It is interesting that you neglected to mention that Dawn Staley sued the Mizzou AD and won the case. Forced him to apologize for lying as well. |
Staley sued Sterk for defamation of character and slander because he said publicly "it was not a good environment and unfortunately, I think coach Staley promoted that kind of atmosphere." She did not "win" the case, it was settled for $50K which UM paid. The issue of the actual slurs and spitting was not addressed.
https://www.newstribune.com/news/2018/may/25/staley-settles-lawsuit-against-missouri-ad-sterk/
|
|
ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: New York
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/03/22 5:12 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Gay white male here-
My gut feeling is that this story is about as believable as Jussie Smollett's 2am Subway run and Bubba Wallace's noose.
Last edited by ucbart on 09/08/22 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: New York
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/03/22 5:20 pm ::: Re: S. Carolina Cancels BYU Games |
Reply |
|
| Howee wrote: |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| ucbart wrote: |
| Man, does SC offer a master class in opportunism and grand standing that Dawn has taken multiple times or what? |
What do you mean? Why do you think Dawn did this? (two separate questions) |
I'm thinking ucbart might have missed PUMatty's sarcasm airplane here: |
LOL! I just hit reply. I wasn't necessarily replaying to Matty! Thanks for the catch.
|
|
singinerd54
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 1817
Location: Missouri
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/03/22 5:36 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ucbart wrote: |
Gay white male here-
My gut feeling is that this story is about as believable as Jussie Smollett's 2am Subway run and Bubba Watson's noose. |
Which story, and why/what about it do you find that (un)believable?
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/03/22 7:44 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| You don't see my valid logic because you're not reading my posts correctly: my point is that Staley has the information to make this decision, not us, and that critiquing her decision to do this is rooted in arrogance and white supremacy. |
No. Just no. I'd think the exact same way if it were Geno or Tara or Kelly taking this stand.
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| I'm not saying she's correct anymore than I'm saying a coach who will still play at BYU this year is incorrect. She knows her team, she knows her own experience, she knows her values -- if the best argument you've got for why she shouldn't cancel is because it will be a "punishment" to BYU, you're going to have to come up with a far better argument than that. ....And why do you disagree with Staley's decision, Howee? |
It's not at all about 'punishment'. BYU and SC will both live nicely without the game. To me, it's much more about NOT letting An Incident (insert Pilight's logic here:) with ANOTHER school (Duke) in another sport (volleyball) dictate her decision.
And I'm not declaring her decision to be utterly wrong....maybe 'misguided' is more apropos. It's easy for any of us to second-guess any such decision, when it's ultimately her responsibility. Now, if her players were expressing some level of terror by visiting BYU, maybe, but.....I doubt that.
And here's a broader question: If Dawn and SC see this as an appropriate and necessary measure to make some kind of statement, then....shouldn't ANY team with black players or coaches follow suit? What if OOC games with, say, OK, FL St., WVU, Lipscomb, etc., leads to their teams saying, "Yeah! There was a nasty racial incident there - we're boycotting BYU."
I know that's a bit spurious, but think about it: when Dawn was a struggling young coach at Temple, I dunno if she'd have taken that stand. Now, she's an elite coach of an elite team, so she's got a bigger platform for influence.
Important point: I do NOT know BYU beyond its general reputation as a generally strong wbb program. IFFF there's a history of racial insensitivity that Dawn is aware of, then it's a different story. But I'd hope she'd base her decision on more than the Duke volleyball incident.
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 19760
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/03/22 8:13 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Howee wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| The feelings of her staff and players are also not relevant to the lack of repercussions from the school to the SC fans - so I’m not really sure how that’s relevant. |
Huhh?? If they are "feeling" unsafe and targeted by racial slurs during a potential visit to BYU, how is that NOT relevant to what happened to the visiting Missouri squad?? It implies that she's calling out BYU for a problem she herself not only tolerated but ENCOURAGED on her own floor. |
Because this isn’t about past problems - it’s about right now.
Right now - Dawn’s players don’t feel safe going to BYU given current events. And that is completely reasonable. If they didn’t feel safe with the South Carolina fans, then she should do something about that too.
The almost completely white BYU atmosphere is different than an atmosphere in South Carolina too. Pretending that his isn’t the case is simply burying one’s head in the sand.
_________________
“Anyone point out that a Donald Trump anagram is ‘Lord Dampnut’”- Colin Mochrie
|
|
ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Frederick, Maryland
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/03/22 11:57 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Deaf gay white man here.
It is rare that the Black members would fabricate things like that and came to the public at large like this. They always keep it to themselves and told each other to be mindful of who's who that would use these racial slurs on them.
Jussie Smollett and Bubba Watson are rare, they are not common. Blacks tend to take the abuses to their hearts and minds and kept it to themselves rather than to face and deal with it.
Why? Because they knew that if they address the incident associated with racism, they would be scrutinized, bullied, dismissed at every turn. They knew they would be forced to live the trauma repeatedly when the general public (meaning white hearing heterosexual men) tried to sow the doubts with everything possible. Some posters here just proved that as well.
History has proved enough of that. When the massacres were committed against the black communities, the victims attempted to come forward but realized that the general community (run by white people) would silence them and bill it not as a massacre but as a race war/riot. It is no wonder that not many of us knew that there were more than 100 racial massacres.
There was several instances where I saw the whites making racial gestures and the Blacks responded only to be told that it was all a case of "misunderstanding" and that the Blacks overreacted.
For a long time, the Blacks' claims were almost always dismissed by saying, "where is the evidence? Where is the proof?"
That has to stop. Enough is enough.
What Rachel Richardson said about her ordeal, I believe her. Period.
|
|
PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 429
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/04/22 12:49 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I don't think it's a similar event or that it was swept under the rug. The alleged incident at SC was investigated and reading further down in the article it states the following: In a statement provided by South Carolina, however, athletic director Ray Tanner said after an investigation into the matter there was no evidence of the behavior alleged. "Upon hearing the accusations regarding our crowd's behavior towards the Missouri team, the athletics department conducted a review of our operations from the game, including interviews with staff and security personnel. In this review, we received no confirmation of the alleged behavior directed at the visiting team by fans at the game." I've read some articles about what the BYU fan allegedly said but don't know whether the university has investigated, but I'm just addressing your statement that there was a double standard on SC's part.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7842
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
|
singinerd54
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 1817
Location: Missouri
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/04/22 9:00 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Howee wrote: |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| You don't see my valid logic because you're not reading my posts correctly: my point is that Staley has the information to make this decision, not us, and that critiquing her decision to do this is rooted in arrogance and white supremacy. |
No. Just no. I'd think the exact same way if it were Geno or Tara or Kelly taking this stand.
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| I'm not saying she's correct anymore than I'm saying a coach who will still play at BYU this year is incorrect. She knows her team, she knows her own experience, she knows her values -- if the best argument you've got for why she shouldn't cancel is because it will be a "punishment" to BYU, you're going to have to come up with a far better argument than that. ....And why do you disagree with Staley's decision, Howee? |
It's not at all about 'punishment'. BYU and SC will both live nicely without the game. To me, it's much more about NOT letting An Incident (insert Pilight's logic here:) with ANOTHER school (Duke) in another sport (volleyball) dictate her decision. |
But who are you* to tell Dawn what's best for herself and her team? If Dawn decides that this repeated use of targeted racist slurs is reason to cancel the game, who are you* to say otherwise? Who are you* to say what should dictate her decisions?
*In these sentences, "who are you" encompasses the positionalities you hold (e.g., race, gender, etc.) as well as the information and experience you have relevant to the situation (presumably more than the decision maker).
The arrogance of your (among others) critique is encapsulated in those questions: you believe you have the basis to say what the right course of action is for Dawn and her team.
Note that all three of the coaches you listed are white. That matters, since we are talking about targeted acts of racism. Choosing to not attend to race (i.e., being color blind) perpetuates racism because it fails to acknowledge the historical realities of race and how race has been used as a vehicle for power and control in the United States. In addition to that color blindness, another element of white supremacy relevant here is the devaluing/questioning of Black people's (and particularly Black women's) experience (see pilight's response about safety in this thread). And because we're talking about race/racism, the arrogance also falls into white supremacy (whereas the arrogance wouldn't be exemplifying white supremacy if we were discussing Geno's decision to do this).
|
|
singinerd54
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 1817
Location: Missouri
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/04/22 9:04 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| My opinion is that Staley is overreacting |
What makes you able to more accurately assess the situation than Staley? |
Without knowing what special insight Staley might have into an incident that happened thousands of miles from her campus between two schools she doesn't represent playing a sport she doesn't coach it is impossible to answer this question |
The question was what makes YOU able to accurately assess the situation. Please tell us about the special insight you have.
You're welcome to answer that on your own, but if you'd like a few more specific questions: What experience do you have coaching an elite Division 1 sports team? What experience do you have as a Black woman (navigating racism) in the United States? What experience do you have with this South Carolina team to make a decision that impacts them? |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Without knowing what special insight Staley might have into an incident that happened thousands of miles from her campus between two schools she doesn't represent playing a sport she doesn't coach it is impossible to answer this question |
Also, if you don't know the special insight Staley might have, what is the basis for your opinion that she is overreacting? |
Looking forward to your responses, pilight!
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3515
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/04/22 9:59 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| PG4ever wrote: |
I don't think it's a similar event or that it was swept under the rug. The alleged incident at SC was investigated and reading further down in the article it states the following: In a statement provided by South Carolina, however, athletic director Ray Tanner said after an investigation into the matter there was no evidence of the behavior alleged. "Upon hearing the accusations regarding our crowd's behavior towards the Missouri team, the athletics department conducted a review of our operations from the game, including interviews with staff and security personnel. In this review, we received no confirmation of the alleged behavior directed at the visiting team by fans at the game." I've read some articles about what the BYU fan allegedly said but don't know whether the university has investigated, but I'm just addressing your statement that there was a double standard on SC's part. |
BYU has investigated, apologized for the incident, and taken steps to help prevent this type of thing from happening again. This is one of the best articles I've read about this. https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/34488855/duke-volleyball-player-rachel-richardson-praises-byu-ad-actions-racial-slur-incident-involving-cougars-fan?platform=amp
| ridor wrote: |
Deaf gay white man here.
It is rare that the Black members would fabricate things like that and came to the public at large like this. They always keep it to themselves and told each other to be mindful of who's who that would use these racial slurs on them.
Jussie Smollett and Bubba Watson are rare, they are not common. Blacks tend to take the abuses to their hearts and minds and kept it to themselves rather than to face and deal with it.
Why? Because they knew that if they address the incident associated with racism, they would be scrutinized, bullied, dismissed at every turn. They knew they would be forced to live the trauma repeatedly when the general public (meaning white hearing heterosexual men) tried to sow the doubts with everything possible. Some posters here just proved that as well.
History has proved enough of that. When the massacres were committed against the black communities, the victims attempted to come forward but realized that the general community (run by white people) would silence them and bill it not as a massacre but as a race war/riot. It is no wonder that not many of us knew that there were more than 100 racial massacres.
There was several instances where I saw the whites making racial gestures and the Blacks responded only to be told that it was all a case of "misunderstanding" and that the Blacks overreacted.
For a long time, the Blacks' claims were almost always dismissed by saying, "where is the evidence? Where is the proof?"
That has to stop. Enough is enough.
What Rachel Richardson said about her ordeal, I believe her. Period. |
So why has this board been asked to disbelieve former Missouri player Sierra Michaelis when she said that SC fans spit on Missouri players? SC's investigation said they found no confirmation it happened. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.
And it's OK for Staley to cancel a game out of concern for her team's safety, but Sterk is wrong for saying, in part, that the atmosphere was "unhealthy"?
The difference between BYU's and SC's responses to these 2 very similar incidents is stark. I don't have a problem with Staley's reaction to the BYU incident, but her response to the SC incident was disappointing. She has a lot of attention and influence right now. I hope instead of garnering more publicity, she's taking this issue to the NCAA where a comprehensive policy can be established to help prevent these incidents. There will always be obnoxious fans yelling insults at players, whether racist, sexist, homophobic, based on hair color, hometown, or something else. But when the incidents are repeated, or involve things like spitting or pouring liquids on players, punishments need to be meted out to the schools. JMO
|
|
Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 8947
Back to top |
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/04/22 11:11 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| You don't see my valid logic because you're not reading my posts correctly: my point is that Staley has the information to make this decision, not us, and that critiquing her decision to do this is rooted in arrogance and white supremacy. |
No. Just no. I'd think the exact same way if it were Geno or Tara or Kelly taking this stand.
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| I'm not saying she's correct anymore than I'm saying a coach who will still play at BYU this year is incorrect. She knows her team, she knows her own experience, she knows her values -- if the best argument you've got for why she shouldn't cancel is because it will be a "punishment" to BYU, you're going to have to come up with a far better argument than that. ....And why do you disagree with Staley's decision, Howee? |
It's not at all about 'punishment'. BYU and SC will both live nicely without the game. To me, it's much more about NOT letting An Incident (insert Pilight's logic here:) with ANOTHER school (Duke) in another sport (volleyball) dictate her decision. |
But who are you* to tell Dawn what's best for herself and her team? If Dawn decides that this repeated use of targeted racist slurs is reason to cancel the game, who are you* to say otherwise? Who are you* to say what should dictate her decisions? |
You've very conveniently ignored a key part of my post:
| Howee wrote: |
| And I'm not declaring her decision to be utterly wrong....maybe 'misguided' is more apropos. It's easy for any of us to second-guess any such decision, when it's ultimately her responsibility. Now, if her players were expressing some level of terror by visiting BYU, maybe, but.....I doubt that. |
Your implication of arrogance can cut both ways: how do YOU get to be so arrogant that you have every confidence that BYU totally fucked up, and that Dawn's judgment is without bias or flaw? Please remember here: all of us are OPINING on what we 'believe' is the case. I don't see that as arrogance.
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| Note that all three of the coaches you listed are white. That matters, since we are talking about targeted acts of racism.....And because we're talking about race/racism, the arrogance also falls into white supremacy (whereas the arrogance wouldn't be exemplifying white supremacy if we were discussing Geno's decision to do this). |
Yes, I DID name 3 white coaches. My OPINION should be exactly the same if THEY took this stance. Are they not under the same obligation to schedule according to concern for their black players?? Is that a double standard you're projecting? The problem that generated this thread is a concern to ALL Americans - players, coaches, etc. If you want to ascribe "arrogance" and "racism" to us "Old White Guys" as we offer analytical OPINIONS, then you're really not helping the situation much.
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
singinerd54
Joined: 18 Feb 2009
Posts: 1817
Location: Missouri
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/04/22 12:09 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Howee wrote: |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| But who are you* to tell Dawn what's best for herself and her team? If Dawn decides that this repeated use of targeted racist slurs is reason to cancel the game, who are you* to say otherwise? Who are you* to say what should dictate her decisions? |
You've very conveniently ignored a key part of my post:
| Howee wrote: |
| And I'm not declaring her decision to be utterly wrong....maybe 'misguided' is more apropos. It's easy for any of us to second-guess any such decision, when it's ultimately her responsibility. Now, if her players were expressing some level of terror by visiting BYU, maybe, but.....I doubt that. |
|
I'm not sure how this key part answers my questions. Do you not disagree with her decision? If you don't disagree, what point are you trying to make in this conversation? If you do disagree, can you explain how that key part answers my questions or explain it in a different way?
| Howee wrote: |
| Your implication of arrogance can cut both ways: how do YOU get to be so arrogant that you have every confidence that BYU totally fucked up, and that Dawn's judgment is without bias or flaw? Please remember here: all of us are OPINING on what we 'believe' is the case. I don't see that as arrogance. |
You continue to misread my posts; I have not said that BYU totally fucked up or that Dawn's judgment is without bias or flaw. My point continues to be that Dawn is the best situated to make a decision about her team and their schedule. The arrogance is when people think they know better than she does what is right for her team.
| Howee wrote: |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| Note that all three of the coaches you listed are white. That matters, since we are talking about targeted acts of racism.....And because we're talking about race/racism, the arrogance also falls into white supremacy (whereas the arrogance wouldn't be exemplifying white supremacy if we were discussing Geno's decision to do this). |
Yes, I DID name 3 white coaches. My OPINION should be exactly the same if THEY took this stance. |
Choosing to ignore the racial elements at play (that Dawn is also a Black woman, treating each of those coaches the same as Dawn if they took this stance) is an example of color blindness. Choosing color blindness erases the historical power dynamics and oppression that are still at play/impactful today, among other things. There are many good articles about the issues with color blindness; you can find them via a quick Google search or I'd be happy to send some here if you want to learn more.
| Howee wrote: |
| Are they not under the same obligation to schedule according to concern for their black players?? Is that a double standard you're projecting? The problem that generated this thread is a concern to ALL Americans - players, coaches, etc. If you want to ascribe "arrogance" and "racism" to us "Old White Guys" as we offer analytical OPINIONS, then you're really not helping the situation much. |
I absolutely believe they are under the same obligation to schedule according to concern for the Black (and non-Black) players. This nicely reiterates my point, though: the head coach has the best information to make this decision for their team. As I said in an earlier post to you, I'm not saying Dawn is correct anymore than I'm saying a coach who will still play at BYU this year is incorrect.
| Howee wrote: |
| The problem that generated this thread is a concern to ALL Americans - players, coaches, etc. If you want to ascribe "arrogance" and "racism" to us "Old White Guys" as we offer analytical OPINIONS, then you're really not helping the situation much. |
Arrogance is any person (regardless of race, gender, etc.) thinking they know what's best for a team more than the coach does, so that is not specific to old, white, or guys, let alone all three. Racism is also not specific to old white guys, but it is specific to white people. I'd be happy to discuss that further in a different thread, presumably in Area 51, if you'd like.
|
|
PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 429
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/04/22 1:15 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ridor wrote: |
Deaf gay white man here.
It is rare that the Black members would fabricate things like that and came to the public at large like this. They always keep it to themselves and told each other to be mindful of who's who that would use these racial slurs on them.
Jussie Smollett and Bubba Watson are rare... |
Because you mentioned these two together, I wanted to clarify that while Jussie Smollett did fabricate a story (by orchestrating a bogus hate crime), Bubba Wallace didn't fabricate anything. He/one of his crew members came across what looked like a noose and reported it to NASCAR. NASCAR investigated and concluded that though the rope did look like a noose, it was a garage door pull and was not related to any hate crime directed toward Wallace.
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/04/22 1:47 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| Note that all three of the coaches you listed are white. That matters, since we are talking about targeted acts of racism.....And because we're talking about race/racism, the arrogance also falls into white supremacy (whereas the arrogance wouldn't be exemplifying white supremacy if we were discussing Geno's decision to do this). |
Yes, I DID name 3 white coaches. My OPINION should be exactly the same if THEY took this stance. |
Choosing to ignore the racial elements at play (that Dawn is also a Black woman, treating each of those coaches the same as Dawn if they took this stance) is an example of color blindness.. |
Then - by your logic - ONLY a black coach is entitled to make such momentous decisions. Or only HER decisions and actions can make a difference.  No. By holding ANY coach equally accountable in such matters, regardless of race, seems far more evolved to me.
| singinerd54 wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| The problem that generated this thread is a concern to ALL Americans - players, coaches, etc. If you want to ascribe "arrogance" and "racism" to us "Old White Guys" as we offer analytical OPINIONS, then you're really not helping the situation much. |
Arrogance is any person (regardless of race, gender, etc.) thinking they know what's best for a team more than the coach does, so that is not specific to old, white, or guys, let alone all three. Racism is also not specific to old white guys, but it is specific to white people. I'd be happy to discuss that further in a different thread, presumably in Area 51, if you'd like. |
What you describe as "arrogance", then, is ANY questioning or difference of opinion from what an authority figure may decide is right and just. I don't buy that, but you're welcomed to. Any of us here might roundly dispute a coaching move Dawn might make during a game, for example. That's not "arrogance". THIS IS AN OPINION FORUM.
Finally, to frame it all as a problem "specific to white people" may support your personal narrative, but that is naive: "Racism" is a worldwide phenomenon, and it's not just "specific to white people".
And FINALLY finally, I'm done: In the final analysis, I really don't give a rat's azz about whether or not SC plays BYU. I've only offered my opinion on the benefit of such a decision. Carry on, and enjoy the holiday weekend! 
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Frederick, Maryland
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/05/22 1:12 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| PGEver, I'm aware of this. I had to include Bubba Watson because someone mentioned him in the same category with Jussie Smollett. That's all. But you're right, NASCAR did admit that it resembled but it was used to open the garage.
|
|
|
|
