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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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 Posted: 02/12/23 2:38 pm ::: |
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Here is a trade I like for all involved
Willoughby and the rights to N. Sabally for Seattle’s second round picks in 24 and 25
Ny gets off Willoughby’s guaranteed money and open ups a spot for Kone in the final 11
Seattle gets two young players who still have potential to develop
Willoughby and Sabally both get an opportunity to play real minutes and prove themselves
Ny gets two future 2nd round picks in the 14 to 20 range that may or may not pan out but will also give them cheap options on an expensive roster or future assets to sweeten bigger trades
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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| Posted: 02/12/23 3:32 pm ::: |
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| sign me tf up for that NOW, but Kolb has proven to be a fantastic GM, i don't see him giving those players away like that – at least, not until right before rosters get finalized
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 02/12/23 4:18 pm ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
| sign me tf up for that NOW, but Kolb has proven to be a fantastic GM, i don't see him giving those players away like that – at least, not until right before rosters get finalized |
Once it seemed like New York might get both Stewart and Vandersloot, it seemed obvious that Onyenwere and especially Willoughby (because of her contract) were on shaky ground. I can imagine that Kolb may feel some pressure to trade Willoughby soon for salary cap reasons AND to have a roster spot for Kone.
So I think J-Spoon is on the right track. And Kolb isn't going to get a first-rounder from anyone for Willoughby. But I suspect it may be hard for him to trade Sabally. She was the FIFTH pick in the 2022 draft and that decision was questioned at the time. She hasn't yet played a game for New York and won't this season. It's hard to imagine Sabally making a contribution to the Liberty, but will Kolb be ready to acknowledge a dubious decision by trading her for a future second-rounder? (IF someone is willing to make that move.)
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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| Posted: 02/12/23 4:29 pm ::: |
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Willoughby (or even Richards) for a 2RP is a deal that could very well be made today
but yeah, Sabally otoh hasn’t played in a single W game yet – she’s too unknown relative to her first-round selection to trade away for lesser perceived value in the form of a 2RP
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 02/12/23 4:30 pm ::: |
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I don't know why people have started saying Nyara Sabally can't make this team or won't be playing. Because a journalist speculated that there wasn't room? Hardly gospel.
That said, at present, she's still in a position where she could re-enter the draft if she wanted to. So if you were looking to trade her rights, it better be to somewhere she actually wants to sign that contract... |
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Stormeo
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| Posted: 02/12/23 4:32 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
I don't know why people have started saying Nyara Sabally can't make this team or won't be playing. Because a journalist speculated that there wasn't room? Hardly gospel.
That said, at present, she's still in a position where she could re-enter the draft if she wanted to. So if you were looking to trade her rights, it better be to somewhere she actually wants to sign that contract... |
out of curiosity, what would New York get in compensation for Sabally re-entering the Draft? if anything
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 02/12/23 4:58 pm ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
I don't know why people have started saying Nyara Sabally can't make this team or won't be playing. Because a journalist speculated that there wasn't room? Hardly gospel.
That said, at present, she's still in a position where she could re-enter the draft if she wanted to. So if you were looking to trade her rights, it better be to somewhere she actually wants to sign that contract... |
out of curiosity, what would New York get in compensation for Sabally re-entering the Draft? if anything |
Nothing. You lose the rights. |
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Stormeo
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 02/12/23 5:44 pm ::: |
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| It's literally never happened (and the rule's been there since I started reading bits of CBAs), so don't hold your breath on her doing it. Chances are, she either signs with New York in the next couple of months, or they send her somewhere where she signs. But just thought I'd mention the possibility. |
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GEF34
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 02/12/23 6:04 pm ::: |
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I believe New York should trade Jocelyn Willoughby, if possible, for a second round draft pick and open a roster spot for Sika Kone. As with Michaela Onyenwere, Willoughby's best hope for a solid WNBA career may be to get traded right now to a team where she'll get more playing time than with the Liberty.
I'm a great admirer of Willoughby because of her graduate studies and her running a "Read What You Sow" book club at Cafe con Libros in Brooklyn.
https://www.si.com/wnba/2021/03/09/jocelyn-willoughby-read-what-you-sow-book-club
For those reasons, I'd hate to see her go. But I suspect that a trade would be best for Willoughby and best for the Liberty.
Worth noting: Willoughby is the last of the six non-Sabrina rookies brought to the Liberty's 2020 team by Jonathan Kolb and Walt Hopkins. So far none of them has had much of a WNBA career. At the moment, Willoughby is on the Liberty roster and Joyner Holmes is on the Connecticut roster. From what I can tell, Megan Walker, Kylie Shook, Leaonna Odom, and Jaz Jones aren't on rosters right now.
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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| Posted: 02/12/23 6:07 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| Stormeo wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| Stormeo wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
I don't know why people have started saying Nyara Sabally can't make this team or won't be playing. Because a journalist speculated that there wasn't room? Hardly gospel.
That said, at present, she's still in a position where she could re-enter the draft if she wanted to. So if you were looking to trade her rights, it better be to somewhere she actually wants to sign that contract... |
out of curiosity, what would New York get in compensation for Sabally re-entering the Draft? if anything |
Nothing. You lose the rights. |
lmao well shit… so it’s not like how it is in MLB where there could be any sort of compensatory draft pick awarded to NY
feels like that should be corrected in the next CBA, if anyone remembers to care about it 
honestly, Sabally could go 2-5 if she were to re-enter, considering the Lynx still need a post and the Wings may not mind reuniting her with her sister – their actual roster needs aside |
I see no reason for it to be changed, the team knew going in she was injured and chose to not sign her. Also as Richyyy mentions this is probably the first time it will happen if it does because most people will sign with an overseas team, even if they don’t sign with the wnba team so that makes them ineligible to enter the draft again. (If I recall the rule correctly). |
in this case, NY knew what they were getting into
nothing to stop a prospect though from hiding an injury from their drafted team, revealing it afterward, agreeing not to sign so they can rehab it, and then re-entering the draft and leave their team high & dry for arguably a second time
it hasn't happened before in the first round to my knowledge, but i just think it's a scenario the W can easily prevent in the future so that the team doesn't get completely screwed
Last edited by Stormeo on 02/12/23 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 02/12/23 6:12 pm ::: |
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Jaz Jones is on a train camp contract with Washington
But yeah that draft didn’t pan out for us at all
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 02/12/23 6:24 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
Jaz Jones is on a train camp contract with Washington
But yeah that draft didn’t pan out for us at all |
Thanks. I'd missed that about Jones. I wish her well. I wish all of them well.
I vividly recall Kolb and Hopkins speaking so glowingly about those six. In fairness, none of them were high picks. Megan Walker, thought by some to go much higher, fell to the 9th pick in the first round. Kolb viewed this as an unexpected windfall. Jocelyn Willoughby came with the 10th pick after a trade. Jaz Jones was 12th, the last pick in the first round.
The second round began with Kylie Shook (#13). Leaonna Odom was #15 and Joyner Holmes #19. I will assume that Kolb and Hopkins were quite genuine in believing these players would really help the Liberty. Alas, none really did. I'd say that of the six Jones was the most valuable in her time on the Liberty.
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 02/12/23 6:32 pm ::: |
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| Also ironically the only player who was drafted outside those picks who turned out better is Dangerfield so it wasn’t like we whiffed on other current 2020 players who are killing it now
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 02/12/23 6:59 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
| Also ironically the only player who was drafted outside those picks who turned out better is Dangerfield so it wasn’t like we whiffed on other current 2020 players who are killing it now |
YES. I thought about mentioning her. As I was looking over the 2020 draft to be able to post the exact draft position for our six non-Sabrina rookies, there--jumping out at me--was Crystal Dangerfield at #16 in the second round, right after Leaonna Odom!!!
I very much appreciated Dangerfield's play for the Liberty last season and wish her well in Dallas.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 02/12/23 7:05 pm ::: |
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| Is anyone giving you a pick for Willoughby? I've seen nothing to get excited about at WNBA level. You'd have to give me a pick to take her and that guaranteed money. |
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 02/12/23 7:13 pm ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| Stormeo wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| Stormeo wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
I don't know why people have started saying Nyara Sabally can't make this team or won't be playing. Because a journalist speculated that there wasn't room? Hardly gospel.
That said, at present, she's still in a position where she could re-enter the draft if she wanted to. So if you were looking to trade her rights, it better be to somewhere she actually wants to sign that contract... |
out of curiosity, what would New York get in compensation for Sabally re-entering the Draft? if anything |
Nothing. You lose the rights. |
lmao well shit… so it’s not like how it is in MLB where there could be any sort of compensatory draft pick awarded to NY
feels like that should be corrected in the next CBA, if anyone remembers to care about it
honestly, Sabally could go 2-5 if she were to re-enter, considering the Lynx still need a post and the Wings may not mind reuniting her with her sister – their actual roster needs aside |
I see no reason for it to be changed, the team knew going in she was injured and chose to not sign her. Also as Richyyy mentions this is probably the first time it will happen if it does because most people will sign with an overseas team, even if they don’t sign with the wnba team so that makes them ineligible to enter the draft again. (If I recall the rule correctly). |
in this case, NY knew what they were getting into
nothing to stop a prospect though from hiding an injury from their drafted team, revealing it afterward, agreeing not to sign so they can rehab it, and then re-entering the draft and leave their team high & dry for arguably a second time
it hasn't happened before in the first round to my knowledge, but i just think it's a scenario the W can easily prevent in the future so that the team doesn't get completely screwed |
When there are so many easier ways to get on to a different team if you are truly unhappy, I see no reason why a person would put their character into question and cost themselves money that they would actually do that. And if a person were do to that is that someone another team would draft.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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Location: New York City
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| Posted: 02/12/23 7:36 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Is anyone giving you a pick for Willoughby? I've seen nothing to get excited about at WNBA level. You'd have to give me a pick to take her and that guaranteed money. |
My guess is that Jonathan Kolb is working on this right now. We'll see if you're right. Could be that Kolb doesn't find a deal he likes and keeps Willoughby after all.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 02/12/23 8:34 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Is anyone giving you a pick for Willoughby? I've seen nothing to get excited about at WNBA level. You'd have to give me a pick to take her and that guaranteed money. |
That is why I picked Seattle and a 2nd round pick and tried to add N. Sabally to the mix
the storm can afford to experiment
ideally with a lot of cap and possible good first round picks in 24 nd 25 their second round picks would just be filler but if Sabally or Willoughby turn into something then awesome
Willoughby still has skill and size for her position injury and early weird coaching maybe hasn't allowed her to develop or maybe she is just what she is but that is why I am not looking at 1st round picks 2nd round picks vs 3rd year players kind of even out
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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| Posted: 02/12/23 9:13 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| Stormeo wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| Stormeo wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| Stormeo wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
I don't know why people have started saying Nyara Sabally can't make this team or won't be playing. Because a journalist speculated that there wasn't room? Hardly gospel.
That said, at present, she's still in a position where she could re-enter the draft if she wanted to. So if you were looking to trade her rights, it better be to somewhere she actually wants to sign that contract... |
out of curiosity, what would New York get in compensation for Sabally re-entering the Draft? if anything |
Nothing. You lose the rights. |
lmao well shit… so it’s not like how it is in MLB where there could be any sort of compensatory draft pick awarded to NY
feels like that should be corrected in the next CBA, if anyone remembers to care about it
honestly, Sabally could go 2-5 if she were to re-enter, considering the Lynx still need a post and the Wings may not mind reuniting her with her sister – their actual roster needs aside |
I see no reason for it to be changed, the team knew going in she was injured and chose to not sign her. Also as Richyyy mentions this is probably the first time it will happen if it does because most people will sign with an overseas team, even if they don’t sign with the wnba team so that makes them ineligible to enter the draft again. (If I recall the rule correctly). |
in this case, NY knew what they were getting into
nothing to stop a prospect though from hiding an injury from their drafted team, revealing it afterward, agreeing not to sign so they can rehab it, and then re-entering the draft and leave their team high & dry for arguably a second time
it hasn't happened before in the first round to my knowledge, but i just think it's a scenario the W can easily prevent in the future so that the team doesn't get completely screwed |
When there are so many easier ways to get on to a different team if you are truly unhappy, I see no reason why a person would put their character into question and cost themselves money that they would actually do that. And if a person were do to that is that someone another team would draft. |
it’s easy to call it a question of character when talking about a non-specific general example, but for any case that comes up – which would be rare anyway – there could be circumstances that arise that paint the organization in a worse light. especially if the player had no other character-related questions to them, we just don’t know how it would be perceived within & across the league. and at any rate, a player re-entering the draft a second time let alone a first time would be… incredibly unlikely. the player’s new team could probably bet that the player won’t pull the same dramatics a second time.
all that said, even if the original team deserved such a thing happening to them, i think they still should get the benefit of the doubt with a draft pick compensation of some sort. though the whole thing has never come up before anyway, so the bridge would probably have to be crossed once first before anyone cares about blowing it up and building a bridge to somewhere better.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 02/12/23 9:27 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| Is anyone giving you a pick for Willoughby? I've seen nothing to get excited about at WNBA level. You'd have to give me a pick to take her and that guaranteed money. |
That is why I picked Seattle and a 2nd round pick and tried to add N. Sabally to the mix
the storm can afford to experiment
ideally with a lot of cap and possible good first round picks in 24 nd 25 their second round picks would just be filler but if Sabally or Willoughby turn into something then awesome
Willoughby still has skill and size for her position injury and early weird coaching maybe hasn't allowed her to develop or maybe she is just what she is but that is why I am not looking at 1st round picks 2nd round picks vs 3rd year players kind of even out |
It's a reasonable idea but not a great positional fit for Seattle when you're paying Russell a lot of money and Magbegor is your big hope for the future. They're both mostly 5s and so is Sabally. |
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Stormeo
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| Posted: 02/12/23 9:34 pm ::: |
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if Russell is even able to compete, which we’ve still heard absolutely nothing about
she’s not even competing in AU like she did last season
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Richyyy
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 02/13/23 7:02 pm ::: |
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Jackie Powell has this new and long piece about the Liberty in The Next:
https://www.thenexthoops.com/wnba/new-york-liberty/new-york-liberty-trade-michaela-onyenwere-bench-dep/
It covers a lot of ground: the trading of Michaela Onyenwere, some salary cap implications, possibilities for Sika Kone and Epiphanny Prince, and the questions about Marine Johannes and Han Xu. There's plenty that's left murky about how many Liberty players--and which ones--can fit into the roster so I'm not going to try to summarize.
P.S. There's a very short video with Johannes and it seems like she wants to come to play for the Liberty this summer, if not before.
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