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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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 Posted: 08/01/22 8:24 am ::: What Makes Your MVP? |
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What is it that makes a Most Valuable Player? What is the ONE thing that your MVP HAS to have?
Lead league in points?
Lead league in points + other stats (rebounds, assists, blocks)?
Win division/conference?
You like the player (or don't like the other top contender)?
Where their team would be without them? (Would they be looking at a top 2 draft pick or still be in the league final?)
Are they playing out of position and still getting great stats?
Are you really voting for an MVP or maybe a Player of the Year?
Something else?
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ChasingRatDogmaSalade
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| Posted: 08/01/22 8:33 am ::: |
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Best player in the league.
Statistically, I look at things like Win Shares, and Individual Offensive & Defensive Efficiency.
This year is should be either Stewie or A'ja.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 08/01/22 8:46 am ::: |
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Interesting takes. For me it’s so subjective because the impact on your team winning is very important. As an example, last year Candace Parker didn’t have great stats but Chicago was 1-8 without her and 15-8 with her in the regular season. Taking Vegas as an obvious example, who drives Vegas more so? Is it the guard (Plum) who orchestrates their offense? Or is the post player (Wilson) whose versatile scoring, defense, rebounding and improved passing they probably can’t get by without?
So I can see why CRDS would go with the above stats to remove the subjectivity.
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pilight
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| Posted: 08/01/22 10:16 am ::: |
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| If the MVP is the best player in the league, then Elena Delle Donne should win. The Mystics are 15-6 with her, 4-6 without. She's got a very good chance of going 50/40/90 with enough makes to qualify for all three. She won't win because she's missed too many games but there's no question to me that she's the best player.
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RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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| Posted: 08/01/22 10:48 am ::: |
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Team Player
Statistics
Ethics
Role Model
Leadership
Clutch Performances
Coach-ability
Respect of Other WNBA Players and Coaches
Elena Delle Donne
A'ja Wilson
Breanna Stewart
Last edited by RavenDog on 08/01/22 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 08/01/22 11:22 am ::: |
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| Inasmuch as the award is called Most Valuable Player, not Highest-Scoring Player, or Best Player, I'd vote for the player who's most valuable to her team. And I think "value" can encompass non-statistical measures like leadership and clutch plays, and it implies that the team has a decent W-L record.
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myrtle
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| Posted: 08/01/22 11:56 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| If the MVP is the best player in the league, then Elena Delle Donne should win. The Mystics are 15-6 with her, 4-6 without. She's got a very good chance of going 50/40/90 with enough makes to qualify for all three. She won't win because she's missed too many games but there's no question to me that she's the best player. |
Watching her play the last couple of games, I just found myself watching her with amazement. Her game is so totally unique. It is really sad, both for her and for fans of the game, that she's missed so much of her career with injury and illness.
As for MVP I would vote for Plum, at least partially because I would love to see a guard win it. I'm guessing Stewie will get it because Plum will probably take a few votes from A'ja.
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ChasingRatDogmaSalade
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
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| Posted: 08/01/22 12:18 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| If the MVP is the best player in the league, then Elena Delle Donne should win. The Mystics are 15-6 with her, 4-6 without. She's got a very good chance of going 50/40/90 with enough makes to qualify for all three. She won't win because she's missed too many games but there's no question to me that she's the best player. |
Had she played close to a full season, I would probably agree.
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pilight
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| Posted: 08/01/22 1:17 pm ::: |
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| ChasingRatDogmaSalade wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| If the MVP is the best player in the league, then Elena Delle Donne should win. The Mystics are 15-6 with her, 4-6 without. She's got a very good chance of going 50/40/90 with enough makes to qualify for all three. She won't win because she's missed too many games but there's no question to me that she's the best player. |
Had she played close to a full season, I would probably agree. |
How close is close?
On a related note, when will the .com update the statistical minimums for a 36 (or 40) game season?
https://stats.wnba.com/help/statminimums/
| Quote: |
| Player must play 24 games (70.5% of 34 games) |
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 08/01/22 1:27 pm ::: |
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| RavenDog wrote: |
Team Player
Statistics
Ethics
Role Model
Leadership
Clutch Performances
Coach-ability
Respect of Other WNBA Players and Coaches
Elena Delle Donne
A'ja Wilson
Breanna Stewart |
wut
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/01/22 4:28 pm ::: |
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| RavenDog wrote: |
Team Player
Statistics
Ethics
Role Model
Leadership
Clutch Performances
Coach-ability
Respect of Other WNBA Players and Coaches
Elena Delle Donne
A'ja Wilson
Breanna Stewart |
I agree with all of this, including the top 3, Kelsey Plum is #4 for me. Things like ethics, role model and respect of other players and coaches are difficult to measure but easy to see when a player does not exhibit them. Last year, for instance, the leading scorer (Tina Charles) outright refused to do what her coach and team needed her to do: post defense. She did not make top 5 in MVP voting, which some attribute to lack of team success. But the lack of success can directly be traced to 1) a team decimated by injuries and 2) an all time "great" in the league who refused to play the role the team needed her to play in order to be more successful. She then followed up the season with blaming all the coaches and players on her team for the lack of success - a clear violation of the "respect for coaches and players." Then she did the exact same thing to the Mercury, who also desperately needed post defenders. Case closed.
Personally, I would exclude EDD from MVP voting this season due to # of games played this season. She is doing the right thing for team success and for her own healthy future. I also agreed with not naming her to the All*Star team because she wasn't going to play in the game. I'm a big EDD fan but I believe in applying criteria consistently. I add this in case anyone thinks I target players I don't like.
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 08/01/22 4:59 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
I agree with all of this, including the top 3, Kelsey Plum is #4 for me. Things like ethics, role model and respect of other players and coaches are difficult to measure but easy to see when a player does not exhibit them. Last year, for instance, the leading scorer (Tina Charles) outright refused to do what her coach and team needed her to do: post defense. She did not make top 5 in MVP voting, which some attribute to lack of team success. But the lack of success can directly be traced to 1) a team decimated by injuries and 2) an all time "great" in the league who refused to play the role the team needed her to play in order to be more successful. She then followed up the season with blaming all the coaches and players on her team for the lack of success - a clear violation of the "respect for coaches and players." Then she did the exact same thing to the Mercury, who also desperately needed post defenders. Case closed.
Personally, I would exclude EDD from MVP voting this season due to # of games played this season. She is doing the right thing for team success and for her own healthy future. I also agreed with not naming her to the All*Star team because she wasn't going to play in the game. I'm a big EDD fan but I believe in applying criteria consistently. I add this in case anyone thinks I target players I don't like. |
In case anyone thinks you target players you don't like? You literally turned a discussion about what makes an MVP into a soapbox to bang on Tina Charles, who hasn't relevant to the MVP conversation since 2017.
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Last edited by Silky Johnson on 08/01/22 6:12 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 08/01/22 5:11 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| If the MVP is the best player in the league, then Elena Delle Donne should win. The Mystics are 15-6 with her, 4-6 without. She's got a very good chance of going 50/40/90 with enough makes to qualify for all three. She won't win because she's missed too many games but there's no question to me that she's the best player. |
I agree that the vast majority of voters will feel she's missed too many games. But it could get interesting for All-WNBA. If she plays every game Washington have left she'll finish at 26 of 36. Most players have missed at least a couple of games for some kind of injury or illness this year. So is 10 too many? |
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undersized_post
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| Posted: 08/01/22 5:20 pm ::: |
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EDD is clearly the most valuable player to *her* team, which the W/L records with/without her show. But it's a fallacy to conclude that that makes her the most valuable player in the league. If other players of comparable talent and team importance (Stewart, Wilson, SDS, etc) had missed as much time as EDD has, the "with/without W/L breakdowns" for their teams would be comparable to the Mystics with/without EDD.
Just because it *has* actually happened with EDD doesn't mean it's unique to her or wouldn't happen with the other players on other teams.
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pilight
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| Posted: 08/01/22 5:41 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| If the MVP is the best player in the league, then Elena Delle Donne should win. The Mystics are 15-6 with her, 4-6 without. She's got a very good chance of going 50/40/90 with enough makes to qualify for all three. She won't win because she's missed too many games but there's no question to me that she's the best player. |
I agree that the vast majority of voters will feel she's missed too many games. But it could get interesting for All-WNBA. If she plays every game Washington have left she'll finish at 26 of 36. Most players have missed at least a couple of games for some kind of injury or illness this year. So is 10 too many? |
26 is a very interesting number. 70.5% of games are required to qualify for leading the league in various stats. In a 36 game season, that's 26 games.
In 2003 Lisa Leslie made first team All WNBA playing 23 of 34 games, so it's not unprecedented to make it while missing that many.
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/01/22 5:58 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| RavenDog wrote: |
Team Player
Statistics
Ethics
Role Model
Leadership
Clutch Performances
Coach-ability
Respect of Other WNBA Players and Coaches
Elena Delle Donne
A'ja Wilson
Breanna Stewart |
I agree with all of this, including the top 3, Kelsey Plum is #4 for me. Things like ethics, role model and respect of other players and coaches are difficult to measure but easy to see when a player does not exhibit them. Last year, for instance, the leading scorer (Tina Charles) outright refused to do what her coach and team needed her to do: post defense. She did not make top 5 in MVP voting, which some attribute to lack of team success. But the lack of success can directly be traced to 1) a team decimated by injuries and 2) an all time "great" in the league who refused to play the role the team needed her to play in order to be more successful. She then followed up the season with blaming all the coaches and players on her team for the lack of success - a clear violation of the "respect for coaches and players." Then she did the exact same thing to the Mercury, who also desperately needed post defenders. Case closed.
Personally, I would exclude EDD from MVP voting this season due to # of games played this season. She is doing the right thing for team success and for her own healthy future. I also agreed with not naming her to the All*Star team because she wasn't going to play in the game. I'm a big EDD fan but I believe in applying criteria consistently. I add this in case anyone thinks I target players I don't like. |
In a SHOCKING turn of events.....RAF has brought Tina Charles into this.
Is anyone else shocked by this?
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 08/01/22 6:11 pm ::: Re: What Makes Your MVP? |
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| Ex-Ref wrote: |
| What is the ONE thing that your MVP HAS to have? |
I can't reduce it to one thing. For me, it's usually a combination of personal stats plus team achievement.
But I admit to letting subjective factors sneak in sometimes. This year so far I like Plum, but I admit part of that is because she has come back so nicely from doubts and even trashing in her early career.
My first pick in the Earth vs. Klingon death match game would probably be a healthy EDD, except she hasn't been consistently healthy since college. |
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pilight
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| Posted: 08/01/22 6:17 pm ::: |
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Players have won scoring titles without finishing in the top 5 in MVP voting before. Diana Taurasi was 7th in MVP voting in 2011. Angel McCoughtry was 6th in MVP voting in 2012. Brittney Griner was 6th in MVP voting in 2017. Arike Ogunbowale was 6th in MVP voting in 2020.
Of course RAF is wrong anyway. Tina Charles was 5th in the MVP voting last season behind Jonquel Jones, Brittney Griner, Breanna Stewart, and Sylvia Fowles.
https://www.wnba.com/news/connecticut-suns-jonquel-jones-named-2021-kia-most-valuable-player/
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 08/01/22 6:20 pm ::: |
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| I've yet to dive into awards stuff properly, but just off the top of my head I would really struggle to vote for Plum as MVP. She's had a great year, but I think Vegas would've coped okay with CGray, Young and A.N.Other as their perimeter. Maybe lost a couple more games, but generally been nearly as good. Lose Wilson, on the other hand, and things could've gotten really messy. Which would make Plum not the MVP of her own team, never mind the league... |
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mercfan3
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| Posted: 08/01/22 6:45 pm ::: |
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It’s an interesting question. I don’t think I emphasize one thing over another..but it needs to be a combo of..
Being on a good team (at least)
Great stats
Where would the team be without them.
I really liked pilight’s statistic of “the mvp is the player who lead their team in scoring in the most wins” ..I think that encompasses everything that I want in the MVP.
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Last edited by mercfan3 on 08/01/22 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ChicagoAnnie
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pilight
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| Posted: 08/01/22 9:02 pm ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| I really liked pilight’s statistic of “the mvp is the player who lead their team in scoring in the most wins” ..I think they encompasses everything that I want in the MVP. |
That's really close at the moment. The top five...
11 Breanna Stewart
10 A'ja Wilson
9 Arike Ogubowale
9 Kelsey Plum
8 Elena Delle Donne
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readyAIMfire53
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| Posted: 08/01/22 9:54 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| I really liked pilight’s statistic of “the mvp is the player who lead their team in scoring in the most wins” ..I think they encompasses everything that I want in the MVP. |
That's really close at the moment. The top five...
11 Breanna Stewart
10 A'ja Wilson
9 Arike Ogubowale
9 Kelsey Plum
8 Elena Delle Donne |
Arike? Seriously????
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readyAIMfire53
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Ex-Ref
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| Posted: 08/03/22 8:20 am ::: |
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Ok, so now we know that it's really not an MVP award, it's a 'whatever we want to make it' award.
Kind of loses some meaning now.
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"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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I thought she finished 6th in voting. In any case, TC is quite relevant when discussing if leading the league in scoring makes a player a good candidate for MVP and this was just last season.