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19 Students & 2 Teachers Dead in Texas Shooting
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tfan



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PostPosted: 05/30/22 8:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
tfan wrote:
3 bullets max per gun owner (not per gun). Anyone caught with more than 3 bullets gets mandatory multi-year prison sentence added onto any other sentence they may receive if a crime was also committed.


That eliminates any gun owner from practicing shooting his gun, so it's not exactly a recommendation for gun safety, nor is it going to be adequate to defend yourself during a home invasion or wild animal attack.


Extra bullets would be given at firing ranges and all would be accounted for - leftover casing or unused - before the person could leave. When I say "3 bullets max" people will say that three is not enough but I don't recall hearing about shootouts between homeowners and burglars. If someone plans to be around wild animals that could kill them they need to practice their shooting beforehand. Most houses won't have a gun owner so unless there is known riches in the house a thief is likely to leave at the first shot. I think the best case for more than 3 bullets is for if you encountered a criminal gang. But in that case you are likely dead no matter what if they are armed and shooting.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 05/30/22 8:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
tfan wrote:
3 bullets max per gun owner (not per gun). Anyone caught with more than 3 bullets gets mandatory multi-year prison sentence added onto any other sentence they may receive if a crime was also committed.


That eliminates any gun owner from practicing shooting his gun, so it's not exactly a recommendation for gun safety, nor is it going to be adequate to defend yourself during a home invasion or wild animal attack.


Extra bullets would be given at firing ranges and all would be accounted for - leftover casing or unused - before the person could leave. When I say "3 bullets max" people will say that three is not enough but I don't recall hearing about shootouts between homeowners and burglars. If someone plans to be around wild animals that could kill them they need to practice their shooting beforehand. Most houses won't have a gun owner so unless there is known riches in the house a thief is likely to leave at the first shot. I think the best case for more than 3 bullets is for if you encountered a criminal gang. But in that case you are likely dead no matter what if they are armed and shooting.


So you want to eliminate practice shooting on private property, hunting, and the ability to protect yourself against a rabid bobcat or a bear attack. Sounds like a penalty on the rural poor, which is not the locale or population involved in most mass shootings.


Stonington_QB



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PostPosted: 05/31/22 6:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
I differentiate between "stupid" and "unintelligent". In this context, I'd argue to conflate his stupidity with his lack of morals and ethics in his behaviors [see: fleeing to Mexico while his region is in a severe power outage, castigating Trump the candidate, then sucking up to him, ad nauseum]
This, along with "broken homes", "church attendance", "defunding the police", "homelessness", "gangs", and "radical district attorneys" is using Bullshit Rhetoric, and is NOT "nailing it", as you suggest, Glenn: it's Red Herring crap to keep his NRA $$$ flowing. Do you think he'd have given the same speech if HIS daughter was in that scene in Uvalde?

It never ceases to amaze me how often one person can be wrong about anything. Everyone else who has participated in this thread early on has realized that there was a complete disregard for security, combined with police inaction, combined again with the fact that the expanded background checks that we "desperately needed to end gun violence" didn't work when applied, and promptly stopped contributing to this topic. But not you. You keep doubling down on making a fool of yourself. I don't think you even realize it. Everyone else does. Ted Cruz is not the stupid one here. He's nothing more than a convenient scapegoat for people who are making this purely political. You can keep saying that Republicans are fighting for the right for kids to be murdered, but I don't know a single person who doesn't condemn this sort of violence. One thing I know for sure is that when all of the bat-shit crazy lunatics who think like you but will actually act on their feelings come to terrorize and kill innocent people if Roe vs Wade is overturned, I'll be sure to blame all Democrats for supporting senseless murder in the name of politics. So I hope you're ready for that because I'm sure that's coming soon.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 05/31/22 8:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I now read in multiple articles that locking doors except for one guarded entrance is already the recommended security practice in schools in Texas and many other places, but that the practice is often not implemented or is overlooked. Convenience often trumps security.

Now, there is a hot dispute in fact-free Uvalde about whether a teacher left open the door through which the lunatic killer entered. A state police official has said that the teacher left the door propped open with a rock. Now, the teacher's lawyer says that's not true—that, in fact, the teacher slammed the door closed when she saw the armed shooter coming. But, the door did not lock for some reason as it was supposed to.

There supposedly is video evidence supporting the teacher's version, which the state police has apparently been unaware of.

https://www.expressnews.com/news/local/article/Uvalde-teacher-open-door-shooter-17209972.php
GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 05/31/22 9:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
One may not agree with Cruz's vigor in rejecting certain "infringements" of Second Amendment rights, but the man is the opposite of "utterly stupid"; he is of genius level intelligence. You want to see low intelligence, look at our last and current presidents and our current vice president.

I differentiate between "stupid" and "unintelligent". In this context, I'd argue to conflate his stupidity with his lack of morals and ethics in his behaviors [see: fleeing to Mexico while his region is in a severe power outage, castigating Trump the candidate, then sucking up to him, ad nauseum]

GlennMacGrady wrote:
We had very few infringements on Second Amendment rights when I was growing up, and there have always been more guns in America than people, but we rarely saw the mass murders we now do implemented with guns, bombs, cars, trucks and planes in schools, churches, nightclubs and malls.

What's changed? It's not the guns. I personally don't care if governments attempt bans on semi-auto/high capacity guns—although such bans may fail in court. But even if, magically, no guns were ever sold again, there are more than 300 million estimated to exist in the USA, and no criminal or mentally ill person will have any trouble accessing them for at least a century.

I believe Ted Cruz nailed it in his speech yesterday, in identifying cultural and social breakdowns as the primary reasons for mass violence events today.

Quote:
“It’s far easier to slander one’s political adversaries and to demand that responsible citizens forfeit their constitutional rights than it is to examine the cultural sickness giving birth to unspeakable acts of evil,” Cruz said. “It’s far less comfortable to ask why despair and isolation and violent hatred is so prevalent in America. It requires a sick soul to drive a truck into a crowded sidewalk, to plan a bomb at a marathon, or to fly a plane into a building. It requires a sick soul to open fire in a movie theater or in a church or in a school. A speeding automobile in the hands of a madman is as deadly as is a jet airplane.”

“Tragedies like the events of this week are a mirror forcing us to ask hard questions, demanding that we see where our culture is failing, looking at broken families, absent fathers, declining church attendance, social media bullying, violent online content, desensitizing the act of murder in video games, chronic isolation, prescription drug, and opioid abuse and their collective effects on the psyche of young Americans is both complicated and multifaceted,” Cruz continued. “It’s a lot easier to moralize about guns and to shriek about those you disagree with politically, but it’s never been about guns.”

Cruz noted that for millions of Americans, the Second Amendment is not an abstract theory, they live in conditions that require them to protect themselves from evil. Cruz said that the Obama White House reported that firearms “are used defensively to stop a crime between 500,000 and one million times every single year.”

“Taking guns away from these responsible Americans will not make them safer, nor will it make our nation more secure,” Cruz said. “In an age where elites embrace defunding the police, when homelessness runs rampant, when gangs dominate entire communities, and when radical district attorneys refuse to prosecute violent crime in cities across America, rarely has the Second Amendment been more necessary to secure the rights of our fellow citizens.”

Cruz noted that there are plenty of major cities across the U.S. that have strict gun control laws and yet are still violent and among some of the most dangerous places in the U.S.


Several points to ponder:

1. I have no doubt that Cruz had that speech prepared for him - why did he not wax that eloquent 4 days ago? :roll:

2. "Cultural sickness" is a component I'd agree with; there are many layers to that, INCLUDING the cultivation of ideas like it's "our Constitutional right" to have military assault rifles in the hands of common citizens. INCLUDING the mindset of a culture that allows an 18-year old to purchase an assault rifle while enforcing a moral judgment that prevents him from buying a simple beer. Ted doesn't mention these things.

3. Firearms "are used defensively to stop a crime between 500,000 to one million times every single year". IFF that's true, then I have no doubt that the VAST majority of those numbers are from legitimate law enforcement practice, NOT simple civilians appropriately defending themselves.

This, along with "broken homes", "church attendance", "defunding the police", "homelessness", "gangs", and "radical district attorneys" is using Bullshit Rhetoric, and is NOT "nailing it", as you suggest, Glenn: it's Red Herring crap to keep his NRA $$$ flowing. Do you think he'd have given the same speech if HIS daughter was in that scene in Uvalde?


Well, Howee, I hope he would have given that same speech because, as hard as it may be for folks of your outlook to see it, I and many others fully agree with just about everything he said.

I think you don't like Cruz (and maybe all Republicans) for partisan political reasons, and thus tend reflexively to repudiate everything he (and they) say. I don't see mass murders by gun, car, truck, bomb and airplane as a political issue at all. Every sentient human being is opposed to such atrocities and should be in favor of rational, practicable and effective solutions to those atrocities.

But, for some better and for some worse, we do live in the only country with a supreme Constitutional right to keep and bear arms for personal self-protection, and not in Europe or Japan much less in a progressive fantasy Utopia.

While, as I say, my personal Second Amendment views would not be offended by stricter regulations on semi-auto rifles and high capacity mags, I really don't believe those restrictions would be effective to reduce USA homicides to any appreciable degree, for three reasons.

First, only a small portion of murders in the USA is committed by rifles and even a smaller subset is committed by semi-auto rifles. In fact, according to FBI statistics (formatted HERE), more murders are committed with bare hands and feet than all rifles, and four times as many murders are committed with knives than all rifles. The vast majority of murders are committed with handguns, which are definitively protected by Second Amendment jurisprudence.

Second, any criminal or lunatic will have no trouble getting either new guns or one of the 300 million existing guns in the USA. The Uvalde killer passed all federal and state background checks to get his rifles via a federally licensed firearms dealer. (He wouldn't have been able to do so if he had been charged with the felonies that he is rumored to have committed earlier in his life.) The killer who perpetrated the Sandy Hook massacre, two towns over from me, used his mother's existing guns (and killed her too). And anyone with modest effort can buy just about any gun privately without going through a firearms dealer at all.

Third, I strongly agree with Cruz and many other people of all political stripes that the primary underlying cause of rampant violence in America is the rapid breakdown of social morality and culturally civilizing institutions over the past 60 years. In my opinion, the two biggest contributing breakdowns are those in family structure (two parent families, at-home fathers, positive community peer influences); and in rigorous religious training and observance being replaced by secular relativism. Unfortunately, I don't see any solution to these social and cultural breakdowns, but I believe that social media addiction has made them worse and will continue to do so at an accelerating pace.

In short, I'm pessimistic that there is any realistic solution to morally unrestrained sociopaths and madmen, and increasing cultural madness, in the approaching Decline and Fall of the Western Empire; and don't believe politicized band-aids will do any good, though I'm not opposed to sticking some on our mor(t)al wounds.


Last edited by GlennMacGrady on 05/31/22 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
pilight



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PostPosted: 05/31/22 9:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
the primary underlying cause of rampant violence in America is the rapid breakdown of social morality and culturally civilizing institutions over the past 60 years


There isn't rampant violence in the US. Violent crime rates are way down. What's rampant is overly sensationalized reporting used to promote a political agenda.



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 06/01/22 6:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
the primary underlying cause of rampant violence in America is the rapid breakdown of social morality and culturally civilizing institutions over the past 60 years


There isn't rampant violence in the US. Violent crime rates are way down. What's rampant is overly sensationalized reporting used to promote a political agenda.


Violent crime rates (which are usually murders, rapes, robbery, and assault) may be down, but there are a lot more lesser anti-social incidents than ever before...road rage, airline fights, hit-and-runs, theft, cybercrime, etc. Young children are being taught, either deliberately or through osmosis, that violence and crime are OK. Besides the things Glenn mentioned, I'd also put the blame on Hollywood and video games, the sense of entitlement everyone seems to have now, rampant drug use, and the decline and devaluation of education. When there's no respect for the safety and lives of others, it doesn't matter what weapon is available.


pilight



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PostPosted: 06/01/22 7:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
Violent crime rates (which are usually murders, rapes, robbery, and assault) may be down, but there are a lot more lesser anti-social incidents than ever before...road rage, airline fights, hit-and-runs, theft, cybercrime, etc.


Is there? Or is it just more of the "news" making a mountain out of a molehill? The number of FAA investigations of unruly passengers in 2019 was exactly the same as it was in 1995. The mask mandates under COVID made the numbers jump, but since they were lifted things have mostly returned to normal. Again it's the news media pushing an agenda.



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 06/01/22 7:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
Violent crime rates (which are usually murders, rapes, robbery, and assault) may be down, but there are a lot more lesser anti-social incidents than ever before...road rage, airline fights, hit-and-runs, theft, cybercrime, etc.


Is there? Or is it just more of the "news" making a mountain out of a molehill? The number of FAA investigations of unruly passengers in 2019 was exactly the same as it was in 1995. The mask mandates under COVID made the numbers jump, but since they were lifted things have mostly returned to normal. Again it's the news media pushing an agenda.


There have been at least five mass shootings since Ulvade.

And personally, I don’t call a mass shooting at a school a molehill.

It happened in Australia once, they got rid of guns, it hasn’t happened again.

People here aren’t even advocating all guns, they are advocating assault rifles. And I know the response to that tends to get into technicalities, but that’s a straw man and we all know it. If you’d use the gun to shoot once and protect yourself, or if you’d use the gun to hunt..fine. Military weapons need to go.

This is something every other developed country has figured out. It’s not rocket science it’s common sense.

But I also know it’s a lost cause. If 20 dead second graders didn’t change anything, 20 dead fourth graders certainly won’t.



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PostPosted: 06/01/22 7:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
Violent crime rates (which are usually murders, rapes, robbery, and assault) may be down, but there are a lot more lesser anti-social incidents than ever before...road rage, airline fights, hit-and-runs, theft, cybercrime, etc.


Is there? Or is it just more of the "news" making a mountain out of a molehill? The number of FAA investigations of unruly passengers in 2019 was exactly the same as it was in 1995. The mask mandates under COVID made the numbers jump, but since they were lifted things have mostly returned to normal. Again it's the news media pushing an agenda.

Combined with the fact that today everyone has a video camera in their pocket and the ability to share its contents with the world in seconds, quite unlike 1995.



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PostPosted: 06/01/22 10:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
Violent crime rates (which are usually murders, rapes, robbery, and assault) may be down, but there are a lot more lesser anti-social incidents than ever before...road rage, airline fights, hit-and-runs, theft, cybercrime, etc.


Is there? Or is it just more of the "news" making a mountain out of a molehill? The number of FAA investigations of unruly passengers in 2019 was exactly the same as it was in 1995.


Okay. You're not exactly LYING. But you ARE grossly misrepresenting The Truth to fit your subversive little narrative - 1995: 146 investigations. 2019: 146. Continue on - 2021: 1099, 2022: 483 (only half a year) Shame on you, pilight. Rolling Eyes



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Howee



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PostPosted: 06/01/22 10:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stonington_QB wrote:
Howee wrote:
I differentiate between "stupid" and "unintelligent". In this context, I'd argue to conflate his stupidity with his lack of morals and ethics in his behaviors [see: fleeing to Mexico while his region is in a severe power outage, castigating Trump the candidate, then sucking up to him, ad nauseum]
This, along with "broken homes", "church attendance", "defunding the police", "homelessness", "gangs", and "radical district attorneys" is using Bullshit Rhetoric, and is NOT "nailing it", as you suggest, Glenn: it's Red Herring crap to keep his NRA $$$ flowing. Do you think he'd have given the same speech if HIS daughter was in that scene in Uvalde?

It never ceases to amaze me how often one person can be wrong about anything. Everyone else who has participated in this thread early on has realized that there was a complete disregard for security, combined with police inaction, combined again with the fact that the expanded background checks that we "desperately needed to end gun violence" didn't work when applied, and promptly stopped contributing to this topic. But not you. You keep doubling down on making a fool of yourself. I don't think you even realize it. Everyone else does. Ted Cruz is not the stupid one here. He's nothing more than a convenient scapegoat for people who are making this purely political. You can keep saying that Republicans are fighting for the right for kids to be murdered, but I don't know a single person who doesn't condemn this sort of violence. One thing I know for sure is that when all of the bat-shit crazy lunatics who think like you but will actually act on their feelings come to terrorize and kill innocent people if Roe vs Wade is overturned, I'll be sure to blame all Democrats for supporting senseless murder in the name of politics. So I hope you're ready for that because I'm sure that's coming soon.

Ahhh, yes. Good ol' First Class Stony....always comes in to prove that "stupid" and "unintelligent" are both alive and well here at Rebs. Laughing Your basic lies above do not merit the dignity of a response.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 06/01/22 11:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I think you don't like Cruz (and maybe all Republicans) for partisan political reasons, and thus tend reflexively to repudiate everything he (and they) say. I don't see mass murders by gun, car, truck, bomb and airplane as a political issue at all.

Glenn, for someone with intellect AND an education, you seem surprisingly unable to comprehend opposing perspectives and their bases. No, I don't dislike "all Republicans". I have varying levels of respect for Sasse, Murkowski, Cheney, Romney, and others. Ted Cruz is SCUM: his credibility is totally ruined, imo, ever since he did the Hate Trump/Love Trump, etc., etc.; his is like any politician that does this, but does it to a far more egregious degree. He is UTTERLY DISINGENUOUS.

What REALLY puzzles me is how you can declare this is NOT a "political issue", when any change to these laws MUST COME FROM A LEGISLATURE COMPOSED OF POLITICIANS!! Reforming laws IS a Political Procedure. You cannot separate the 2. Do you believe Abortion Rights are non-political? Shocked

GlennMacGrady wrote:
But, for some better and for some worse, we do live in the only country with a supreme Constitutional right to keep and bear arms for personal self-protection, and not in Europe or Japan much less in a progressive fantasy Utopia.

Agreed. But: THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE ASSAULT WEAPONS OF WAR. The Founding Fathers never imagined what AK-15s were when they wrote of personal safety.

GlennMacGrady wrote:
First, only a small portion of murders in the USA is committed by rifles and even a smaller subset is committed by semi-auto rifles. In fact, according to FBI statistics (formatted HERE), more murders are committed with bare hands and feet than all rifles, and four times as many murders are committed with knives than all rifles. The vast majority of murders are committed with handguns, which are definitively protected by Second Amendment jurisprudence.

"Murders" = the vast majority of illicit killings, yes. "Mass Murders" are a small %, but of a VERY DIFFERENT NATURE. Almost all involve the killing of very unsuspecting, innocent people who had no association with the killer. As merc said above:
mercfan3 wrote:
And personally, I don’t call a mass shooting at a school a molehill.
No one should ever conflate mass murders with average, garden-variety murders.

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Second, any criminal or lunatic will have no trouble getting either new guns or one of the 300 million existing guns in the USA. The Uvalde killer passed all federal and state background checks to get his rifles via a federally licensed firearms dealer. (He wouldn't have been able to do so if he had been charged with the felonies that he is rumored to have committed earlier in his life.) The killer who perpetrated the Sandy Hook massacre, two towns over from me, used his mother's existing guns (and killed her too). And anyone with modest effort can buy just about any gun privately without going through a firearms dealer at all.

True enough, about having no trouble acquiring guns: so you agree that there needs to be POLITICALLY LEGISLATED mandates that make this more difficult, right? For chrissake - not even a parental consent needed for a child to purchase an assault rifle? THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED. And - any "criminal or lunatic" might, in all likelihood, not kill as many people IF ASSAULT RIFLES DIDN'T EXIST IN CIVILIAN POPULATIONS.

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Third, I strongly agree with Cruz and many other people of all political stripes that the primary underlying cause of rampant violence in America is the rapid breakdown of social morality and culturally civilizing institutions over the past 60 years. In my opinion, the two biggest contributing breakdowns are those in family structure (two parent families, at-home fathers, positive community peer influences); and in rigorous religious training and observance being replaced by secular relativism. Unfortunately, I don't see any solution to these social and cultural breakdowns, but I believe that social media addiction has made them worse and will continue to do so at an accelerating pace.

I'll never agree with the "rigorous religious training" part, just because the Agency of Organized Religion has perpetrated more evil and unjust suffering and death on this Earth than all the assault rifles ever made, into perpetuity. The social media addictions? Absolutely true, imo. But I believe even that is more closely monitored than the sale of assault rifles.

Now. STILL YET. No one here as offered any viable explanation as to how any civilian's life is harmed, or even diminished by the removal of all assault rifles from civilians hands. So that should be a no-brainer for legislators, right? see chart 1. Pay attention to the spike after the gray portion.

And universal background checks, or Red Flag laws - how could anyone oppose them?



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 06/01/22 12:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It is a political issue, simply because of the need for legislation. However, it's also being politicized for re-election campaigns, party maneuvering, and a bunch of other crap that has little to do with the gun issue itself. Witness the misleading pontificating that's come out of Uvalde.

Quote:
Later Tuesday, the Combined Law Enforcement Association of Texas, which represents police officers, urged its member officers to cooperate with “all government investigations” into the shooting and police response and endorsed a federal probe already announced by the Justice Department.

The organization was also sharply critical of the constantly changing narrative of events that has emerged so far.

“There has been a great deal of false and misleading information in the aftermath of this tragedy. Some of the information came from the very highest levels of government and law enforcement,” CLEAT said. “Sources that Texans once saw as iron-clad and completely reliable have now been proven false.”

https://apnews.com/article/uvalde-school-shooting-texas-a55b3ccc5a32dce916e7d0a10d7c546e


pilight



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PostPosted: 06/20/22 9:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Police in Uvalde had rifles earlier than known

https://apnews.com/article/politics-texas-law-enforcement-agencies-shootings-police-601af4d0115ffd6d7b95ff9d1d82f37a

Quote:
Multiple police officers armed with rifles and at least one ballistic shield stood and waited in a school hallway for nearly an hour while a gunman carried out a massacre of 19 elementary students and two teachers



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