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Howee
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 Posted: 05/27/22 11:23 am ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| Now this is a quote from a Dept of Public Safety official who wasn't even there speaking in generalities. Besides whatever happened at that school, the media isn't doing any better at clarifying anything, just interviewing anyone they can find who feels like talking. |
There is truth in this, and maybe it helps understand the lack of clarity you voice, scully. Re: the locked door, I believe it was referencing the particular room's locked door - which also begs the question: how'd the kid get into the room, unless someone let him in (which can easily happen, if someone knocks on a classroom door)
In our frustration and feelings of futility in these cases, we want to find key blaming points, but....none of it can change what happened, only what might happen next.
As the Onion so pointedly and repetitiously wrote: " 'No Way To Prevent This', Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens"
What IS certainly clear is the F**king lack of movement by Congress. Cruz says to 'not politicize' this? WHY NOT!?? IT'S ONLY POLITICIANS THAT CAN MAKE THIS BETTER. They can't even agree on universal background checks? They can't make assault rifles illegal?? THIS IS NOT THE REFLECTING THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S MAJORITY, WHO WANT THIS KIND OF REFORM.
As with Texas' tattletale bounty on abortion seekers, why can't government offer $1,000 rewards to citizens who turn in their assault rifles, AND offer $10,000 rewards to those who turn in neighbors who don't comply?
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Queenie
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| Posted: 05/27/22 6:03 pm ::: |
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Republicans' solution appears to be replacing the threat of being shot with the threat of being trapped in a building with one exit. I too want our children to experience what it was like at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory.
JUST REGULATE THE FUCKING GUNS
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Ex-Ref
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| Posted: 05/27/22 7:31 pm ::: |
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Gabe Kapler - SF Giants manager'
| Quote: |
| "But we weren’t given bravery, and we aren’t free. The police on the scene put a mother in handcuffs as she begged them to go in and save her children. They blocked parents trying to organize to charge in to stop the shooter, including a father who learned his daughter was murdered while he argued with the cops. We aren’t free when politicians decide that the lobbyist and gun industries are more important than our children’s freedom to go to school without needing bulletproof backpacks and active shooter drills." |
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/giants/2022/05/27/giants-manager-gabe-kapler-pens-essay-criticizing-country-after-uvalde-shooting-considered-kneeling/9967166002/
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Howee
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 05/29/22 1:23 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
Republicans' solution appears to be replacing the threat of being shot with the threat of being trapped in a building with one exit. I too want our children to experience what it was like at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory.
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Where do you get this hysterical distortion of a simple idea?
A ten year old in my family's first reaction to me after this horrible incident was to ask why that school simply didn't have all its doors locked from the inside like at her school. She has no political affiliation.
It's just common sense, not a political viewpoint, that you protect buildings from unwanted intruders by locking the doors from the inside. Just like in about everyone in the world's homes. After the doors are locked, anyone who wants entry has to be buzzed in through one single entrance, which can be video monitored and easily guarded.
Fire doors, for example, have been in schools and many other public buildings long before I was born. They can't be opened from the outside, but open from the inside with a simple push bar to allow exit.
This simple preventive measure, which is not inconsistent with additional gun controls, would possibly have prevented the Uvalde tragedy, since the killer is reported to have entered through an open door. |
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 05/29/22 3:06 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
Republicans' solution appears to be replacing the threat of being shot with the threat of being trapped in a building with one exit. I too want our children to experience what it was like at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory.
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Where do you get this hysterical distortion of a simple idea? |
Maybe here?
| Quote: |
| The senator explained: “One door into and out of the school and have that one door armed with police officers.” |
I mean, as utterly stupid as he is, I doubt Cruz actually meant to imply every school should have only one doorway. But people might have drawn that inference. Regardless, he's a typical RepuQ in advocating for Door Control harder than he is for Gun Control over assault weapons of war amongst civilians.
Can ANYBODY here tell me how/why ANY CIVILIAN should be entitled to own assault rifles, the obvious weapon of choice in these killings?? Or maybe you can tell me why RepuQs are opposed to Universal Background checks.
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pilight
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| Posted: 05/29/22 3:16 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| Can ANYBODY here tell me how/why ANY CIVILIAN should be entitled to own assault rifles, the obvious weapon of choice in these killings?? |
Your asking the wrong question. People have the right to own things by default. The burden is on the banners to demonstrate that a right should be revoked.
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Howee
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| Posted: 05/29/22 3:39 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| Can ANYBODY here tell me how/why ANY CIVILIAN should be entitled to own assault rifles, the obvious weapon of choice in these killings?? |
Your asking the wrong question. People have the right to own things by default. The burden is on the banners to demonstrate that a right should be revoked. |
(....which - in this argument - is easily demonstrable, no?)
Semantics, maybe? People do NOT have the right to own things by default, imo. If I had the money for it, do I have the right to have my very own nuclear warhead, even if there is no specific legislation against it? Live hand grenades? There ARE things we are not allowed (hence, do not have a right) to own or use in a civilized society.
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pilight
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| Posted: 05/29/22 3:44 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| Semantics, maybe? People do NOT have the right to own things by default, imo. If I had the money for it, do I have the right to have my very own nuclear warhead, even if there is no specific legislation against it? Live hand grenades? There ARE things we are not allowed (hence, do not have a right) to own or use in a civilized society. |
There is specific legislation against owning a nuclear warhead or a hand grenade.
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Howee
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| Posted: 05/29/22 4:00 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| Semantics, maybe? People do NOT have the right to own things by default, imo. If I had the money for it, do I have the right to have my very own nuclear warhead, even if there is no specific legislation against it? Live hand grenades? There ARE things we are not allowed (hence, do not have a right) to own or use in a civilized society. |
There is specific legislation against owning a nuclear warhead or a hand grenade. |
While I certainly believe that, I'd love to see the actual (federal?) laws, thankgodforthem.
But again, to the bigger point: no one had to buy their own nuclear warhead AND misuse it to get that legislation in place, right? It is a matter of COMMON SENSE! Why is it somehow an inalienable right to own another weapon of mass destruction?
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DivaORcat16
Joined: 13 May 2020
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| Posted: 05/29/22 7:41 pm ::: |
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What I do with my AR-15 and what that kid did is choice.
Just because you own a gun (or several) doesn't mean you're going to use it that way.
Mental health usually plays a role. That kid had issues. BIG issues that were overlooked by everyone in his life, or ignored.
I was on campus with my daughter buying a textbook the day of the UCC shooting in 2015. Walking across the campus from the bookstore out in the open within 100 feet of the classroom where the shooter was. I heard gun shots. Didn't think anything of it because it was close to deer season and figured someone was sighting in their gun.
I do believe there needs to be more restrictions but not outright bans.
A criminal is going to get a gun regardless of laws. Period.
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FrozenLVFan
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| Posted: 05/29/22 8:15 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| Semantics, maybe? People do NOT have the right to own things by default, imo. If I had the money for it, do I have the right to have my very own nuclear warhead, even if there is no specific legislation against it? Live hand grenades? There ARE things we are not allowed (hence, do not have a right) to own or use in a civilized society. |
There is specific legislation against owning a nuclear warhead or a hand grenade. |
While I certainly believe that, I'd love to see the actual (federal?) laws, thankgodforthem.
But again, to the bigger point: no one had to buy their own nuclear warhead AND misuse it to get that legislation in place, right? It is a matter of COMMON SENSE! Why is it somehow an inalienable right to own another weapon of mass destruction? |
Having nothing better to do, I just googled a bunch of weapons to find out what a US citizen can and can't own. "Destructive devices" are regulated under the National Firearms Act ("NFA"), a federal law first passed in 1934 and amended by the Crime Control Act of 1968. Additional laws vary from state-to-state as well, but...
...you can own smoke grenades or flash-bang grenades. You can also own destructive grenades if you can satisfy an extremely difficult permitting process. You can buy an RPG launcher, but you're unlikely to get a grenade that can be launched from it.
...you have to have a permit to own a silencer for a gun.
...you can own a tank if you can find one that passes emission regulations but you can't drive it on a public road.
...you can own a cannon, but not cannon shells, although cannon balls inserted through the muzzle are legal.
...you can own a flamethrower, although not the military type that use flammable liquids. Apparently combustible gas types are used for agricultural purposes.
...you can't own nuclear weapons which are prohibited by the Atomic Energy Acts of 1946 and 1954, and there are other laws that prohibit refining nuclear materials and building nuclear weapons. However, there are exclusions for private industry researching and building nuclear weapons for the military.
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pilight
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| Posted: 05/29/22 8:26 pm ::: |
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I know someone who owns a 19th century cannon. He uses it in Civil War reenactments.
I used to know someone who owned grenades he had brought home from WWII. He said they were live. Dunno what happened to them when he died.
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Howee
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| Posted: 05/29/22 8:58 pm ::: |
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| DivaORcat16 wrote: |
| What I do with my AR-15 and what that kid did is choice. Just because you own a gun (or several) doesn't mean you're going to use it that way. |
Right. 99.9% of A-15 owners don't shoot up the town. To me, the .1% that DOES get unhinged and murder innocent people en masse warrants eliminating that possibility. PLEASE tell me: why might sane, law-abiding people WANT to own an assault rifle? What is the need? I was raised around guns, and trained in their usage. I can't think of one Earthly reason I need one of those military style rifles - unless I'm in the military or law enforcement.
| DivaORcat16 wrote: |
| Mental health usually plays a role. That kid had issues. BIG issues that were overlooked by everyone in his life, or ignored. |
I'd say mental health always plays a role....who in their 'right mind' does this? From hearing a direct interview with his live-in, guardian grandfather, apparently, there were no clues.
| DivaORcat16 wrote: |
| I do believe there needs to be more restrictions but not outright bans. A criminal is going to get a gun regardless of laws. Period. |
What is an acceptable restriction? This kid could not legally buy a beer in TX, but he could buy an assault rifle. There's something terribly wrong with this irony. A ban? Why NOT? Who is hurt or wronged if - by magic - every ordinary citizen suddenly had their assault weapons disintegrate to dust? How might your life be negatively impacted WHY DO CITIZENS NEED THEM? They don't. Period.
Yes, criminals will always find a way on the black market. That logic is terribly weak, though: by that same logic, we might say we should never ban heroine or cocaine, cuz addicts will always get them, regardless of laws.
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Howee
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FrozenLVFan
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| Posted: 05/29/22 9:53 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| DivaORcat16 wrote: |
| What I do with my AR-15 and what that kid did is choice. Just because you own a gun (or several) doesn't mean you're going to use it that way. |
Right. 99.9% of A-15 owners don't shoot up the town. To me, the .1% that DOES get unhinged and murder innocent people en masse warrants eliminating that possibility. PLEASE tell me: why might sane, law-abiding people WANT to own an assault rifle? What is the need? I was raised around guns, and trained in their usage. I can't think of one Earthly reason I need one of those military style rifles - unless I'm in the military or law enforcement.
| DivaORcat16 wrote: |
| Mental health usually plays a role. That kid had issues. BIG issues that were overlooked by everyone in his life, or ignored. |
I'd say mental health always plays a role....who in their 'right mind' does this? From hearing a direct interview with his live-in, guardian grandfather, apparently, there were no clues.
| DivaORcat16 wrote: |
| I do believe there needs to be more restrictions but not outright bans. A criminal is going to get a gun regardless of laws. Period. |
What is an acceptable restriction? This kid could not legally buy a beer in TX, but he could buy an assault rifle. There's something terribly wrong with this irony. A ban? Why NOT? Who is hurt or wronged if - by magic - every ordinary citizen suddenly had their assault weapons disintegrate to dust? How might your life be negatively impacted WHY DO CITIZENS NEED THEM? They don't. Period.
Yes, criminals will always find a way on the black market. That logic is terribly weak, though: by that same logic, we might say we should never ban heroine or cocaine, cuz addicts will always get them, regardless of laws. |
Technically, an AR-15 isn't an assault weapon because it's a semi-auto and not an automatic weapon. As a semi-auto, it's used for hunting. I don't support that either because IMO I don't think it's good sportsmanship, but that is currently a legit use for one.
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tfan
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| Posted: 05/29/22 11:27 pm ::: |
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| 3 bullets max per gun owner (not per gun). Anyone caught with more than 3 bullets gets mandatory multi-year prison sentence added onto any other sentence they may receive if a crime was also committed.
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FrozenLVFan
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| Posted: 05/30/22 1:04 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| 3 bullets max per gun owner (not per gun). Anyone caught with more than 3 bullets gets mandatory multi-year prison sentence added onto any other sentence they may receive if a crime was also committed. |
That eliminates any gun owner from practicing shooting his gun, so it's not exactly a recommendation for gun safety, nor is it going to be adequate to defend yourself during a home invasion or wild animal attack.
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 05/30/22 1:40 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
Republicans' solution appears to be replacing the threat of being shot with the threat of being trapped in a building with one exit. I too want our children to experience what it was like at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory.
|
Where do you get this hysterical distortion of a simple idea? |
Maybe here?
| Quote: |
| The senator explained: “One door into and out of the school and have that one door armed with police officers.” |
I mean, as utterly stupid as he is, I doubt Cruz actually meant to imply every school should have only one doorway. |
Okay, I watched that entire Fox interview with Cruz, and only someone who didn't watch it, or just read an out-of-context one sentence tweet about it, could believe that Cruz was advocating for schools to have only one door.
He was mainly talking about the 2013 Grassley-Cruz bill that, among other things, would have provided $300,000,000 to harden school doors, provide bullet proof glass in windows and doors, and provide security protection on one primary entrance/exit while all the other doors remained locked during the school day. Just as at my 10-year old relative's school. That bill had nine Democrat supporters among the 52 who voted for it in the Senate, but it was filibustered by Harry Reid and Chuck Schumer.
One may not agree with Cruz's vigor in rejecting certain "infringements" of Second Amendment rights, but the man is the opposite of "utterly stupid"; he is of genius level intelligence. You want to see low intelligence, look at our last and current presidents and our current vice president.
We had very few infringements on Second Amendment rights when I was growing up, and there have always been more guns in America than people, but we rarely saw the mass murders we now do implemented with guns, bombs, cars, trucks and planes in schools, churches, nightclubs and malls.
What's changed? It's not the guns. I personally don't care if governments attempt bans on semi-auto/high capacity guns—although such bans may fail in court. But even if, magically, no guns were ever sold again, there are more than 300 million estimated to exist in the USA, and no criminal or mentally ill person will have any trouble accessing them for at least a century.
I believe Ted Cruz nailed it in his speech yesterday, in identifying cultural and social breakdowns as the primary reasons for mass violence events today.
| Quote: |
“It’s far easier to slander one’s political adversaries and to demand that responsible citizens forfeit their constitutional rights than it is to examine the cultural sickness giving birth to unspeakable acts of evil,” Cruz said. “It’s far less comfortable to ask why despair and isolation and violent hatred is so prevalent in America. It requires a sick soul to drive a truck into a crowded sidewalk, to plan a bomb at a marathon, or to fly a plane into a building. It requires a sick soul to open fire in a movie theater or in a church or in a school. A speeding automobile in the hands of a madman is as deadly as is a jet airplane.”
“Tragedies like the events of this week are a mirror forcing us to ask hard questions, demanding that we see where our culture is failing, looking at broken families, absent fathers, declining church attendance, social media bullying, violent online content, desensitizing the act of murder in video games, chronic isolation, prescription drug, and opioid abuse and their collective effects on the psyche of young Americans is both complicated and multifaceted,” Cruz continued. “It’s a lot easier to moralize about guns and to shriek about those you disagree with politically, but it’s never been about guns.”
Cruz noted that for millions of Americans, the Second Amendment is not an abstract theory, they live in conditions that require them to protect themselves from evil. Cruz said that the Obama White House reported that firearms “are used defensively to stop a crime between 500,000 and one million times every single year.”
“Taking guns away from these responsible Americans will not make them safer, nor will it make our nation more secure,” Cruz said. “In an age where elites embrace defunding the police, when homelessness runs rampant, when gangs dominate entire communities, and when radical district attorneys refuse to prosecute violent crime in cities across America, rarely has the Second Amendment been more necessary to secure the rights of our fellow citizens.”
Cruz noted that there are plenty of major cities across the U.S. that have strict gun control laws and yet are still violent and among some of the most dangerous places in the U.S. |
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undersized_post
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| Posted: 05/30/22 8:29 am ::: |
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| If we as a society are spending more time discussing door regulations than gun regulations, the gun lobby has already won.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 05/30/22 8:30 am ::: |
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| undersized_post wrote: |
| If we as a society are spending more time discussing door regulations than gun regulations, the gun lobby has already won. |
Does this mean the door lobby has lost?
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undersized_post
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| Posted: 05/30/22 8:45 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| undersized_post wrote: |
| If we as a society are spending more time discussing door regulations than gun regulations, the gun lobby has already won. |
Does this mean the door lobby has lost? |
Lol.
It means everyone is a loser, even if they can't see it yet.
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Luuuc
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| Posted: 05/30/22 9:33 am ::: |
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| The door lobby is still reeling from last year's WNBA Finals
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Howee
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| Posted: 05/30/22 10:11 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| One may not agree with Cruz's vigor in rejecting certain "infringements" of Second Amendment rights, but the man is the opposite of "utterly stupid"; he is of genius level intelligence. You want to see low intelligence, look at our last and current presidents and our current vice president. |
I differentiate between "stupid" and "unintelligent". In this context, I'd argue to conflate his stupidity with his lack of morals and ethics in his behaviors [see: fleeing to Mexico while his region is in a severe power outage, castigating Trump the candidate, then sucking up to him, ad nauseum]
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
We had very few infringements on Second Amendment rights when I was growing up, and there have always been more guns in America than people, but we rarely saw the mass murders we now do implemented with guns, bombs, cars, trucks and planes in schools, churches, nightclubs and malls.
What's changed? It's not the guns. I personally don't care if governments attempt bans on semi-auto/high capacity guns—although such bans may fail in court. But even if, magically, no guns were ever sold again, there are more than 300 million estimated to exist in the USA, and no criminal or mentally ill person will have any trouble accessing them for at least a century.
I believe Ted Cruz nailed it in his speech yesterday, in identifying cultural and social breakdowns as the primary reasons for mass violence events today.
| Quote: |
“It’s far easier to slander one’s political adversaries and to demand that responsible citizens forfeit their constitutional rights than it is to examine the cultural sickness giving birth to unspeakable acts of evil,” Cruz said. “It’s far less comfortable to ask why despair and isolation and violent hatred is so prevalent in America. It requires a sick soul to drive a truck into a crowded sidewalk, to plan a bomb at a marathon, or to fly a plane into a building. It requires a sick soul to open fire in a movie theater or in a church or in a school. A speeding automobile in the hands of a madman is as deadly as is a jet airplane.”
“Tragedies like the events of this week are a mirror forcing us to ask hard questions, demanding that we see where our culture is failing, looking at broken families, absent fathers, declining church attendance, social media bullying, violent online content, desensitizing the act of murder in video games, chronic isolation, prescription drug, and opioid abuse and their collective effects on the psyche of young Americans is both complicated and multifaceted,” Cruz continued. “It’s a lot easier to moralize about guns and to shriek about those you disagree with politically, but it’s never been about guns.”
Cruz noted that for millions of Americans, the Second Amendment is not an abstract theory, they live in conditions that require them to protect themselves from evil. Cruz said that the Obama White House reported that firearms “are used defensively to stop a crime between 500,000 and one million times every single year.”
“Taking guns away from these responsible Americans will not make them safer, nor will it make our nation more secure,” Cruz said. “In an age where elites embrace defunding the police, when homelessness runs rampant, when gangs dominate entire communities, and when radical district attorneys refuse to prosecute violent crime in cities across America, rarely has the Second Amendment been more necessary to secure the rights of our fellow citizens.”
Cruz noted that there are plenty of major cities across the U.S. that have strict gun control laws and yet are still violent and among some of the most dangerous places in the U.S. |
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Several points to ponder:
1. I have no doubt that Cruz had that speech prepared for him - why did he not wax that eloquent 4 days ago? 
2. "Cultural sickness" is a component I'd agree with; there are many layers to that, INCLUDING the cultivation of ideas like it's "our Constitutional right" to have military assault rifles in the hands of common citizens. INCLUDING the mindset of a culture that allows an 18-year old to purchase an assault rifle while enforcing a moral judgment that prevents him from buying a simple beer. Ted doesn't mention these things.
3. Firearms "are used defensively to stop a crime between 500,000 to one million times every single year". IFF that's true, then I have no doubt that the VAST majority of those numbers are from legitimate law enforcement practice, NOT simple civilians appropriately defending themselves.
This, along with "broken homes", "church attendance", "defunding the police", "homelessness", "gangs", and "radical district attorneys" is using Bullshit Rhetoric, and is NOT "nailing it", as you suggest, Glenn: it's Red Herring crap to keep his NRA $$$ flowing. Do you think he'd have given the same speech if HIS daughter was in that scene in Uvalde?
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