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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
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 Posted: 10/18/22 10:34 pm ::: |
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If people would have shut the F up and not criticized the Russian Judicial System at least until the trial was over, Griner would be in the USA today. The government in most parts of the World, especially in Russia is not not going to be intimidated by criticism and public opinion. Russians historically have always been sensitive to criticism of their culture and system. Criticising their judicial system only makes them dig in their heels more purely on principle. They could not be seen to show any sign of caving in to outside pressure.
Even now, saying she is being held unjustly is counter productive. Unjustly based on what system of justice. Its not the USA folks. Its Russia and they have their own laws and system that anyone going there needs to recognize.
The actions of many of the people in this country were totally counter productive. Their actions and words made things worse. Of course most social justice warriors are less concerned with outcomes or results than they are with their own envolvement in any cause.
Had the situation been kept low profile she probably would not have been sentenced to the time she was and have been releases by now. Insulting the Russian judicial system is basically insulting Russian culture. You do not insult someone when they can make things more difficult for you.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 10/19/22 12:50 am ::: |
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| willtalk wrote: |
| If people would have shut the F up and not criticized the Russian Judicial System at least until the trial was over, Griner would be in the USA today. |
Utter nonsense, this sentence and the rest.
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
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| Posted: 10/19/22 7:59 am ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| willtalk wrote: |
| If people would have shut the F up and not criticized the Russian Judicial System at least until the trial was over, Griner would be in the USA today. |
Utter nonsense, this sentence and the rest. |
So what good has all that criticism done. She is still in Russia with no change in sight. You people are clueless. An attempt to keep it low profile would have achieved the best results. But then people would not have been able to vent their outrage. Its all about finding targets for outrage isn't it.
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 10/19/22 11:41 am ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| willtalk wrote: |
| If people would have shut the F up and not criticized the Russian Judicial System at least until the trial was over, Griner would be in the USA today. |
Utter nonsense, this sentence and the rest. |
You shouldn't easily dismiss their opinion just because it doesn't align with yours. I don't think she would be free today or received a lighter sentence but we never really will know. I do think the US media response and the pressure put on Biden actually has hindered the negotiation attempts. All we did was show our hand, act desperate and inflate her value to the Russians. Clearly Russia knows that Biden is desperate to prove to his base that he values the freedom of a black woman. As he should, but it was a strategic misstep to play such loud lip service to that crowd because Russian knows they can stonewall us, it will make Biden look bad (especially when her wife was accusing the administration of doing nothing despite all that they WERE doing) if he doesn't "bring her home" despite having very little leverage. I don't think Putin cares as much about getting Bout as he does making us look bad, which is what he's succeeding in.
We'll never know how this would've played out but the hysteria didn't help. She's still not free and now we've telegraphed the high value she has to us and Russia is laughing by saying it's not a priority to them.
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 10/19/22 11:46 am ::: |
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Biden admin has been in touch with Russia in recent days as part of efforts to secure Griner and Whelan's release
| Quote: |
| Despite the "pretty persistent" pace of discussions between the US and Russia to secure the Americans' release, the official said that the Biden administration has yet to receive a serious counteroffer from the Russian side |
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/18/politics/us-russia-griner-whelan-communications/index.html
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johnjohnW
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
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| Posted: 10/21/22 12:31 pm ::: |
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The present government in Russia cares little about "World Opinion". What they care about is the opinions and support of the Russian people. Their present talking points in respect to assuring that support is by selling the scenario of " Russia against the World". Any thing that supports that perspective will be utilized to the max. Criticism of Russian Law and their judicial system is perceived as insulting and disrespecting the Russian Nation and its culture.
The Griner issue has become important to them as a way of showing their resistence to Western influence and pressure. The criticism of their legal system made it important in that respect. It has become part of the Putins propaganda to unify the Russian people in support for the war agains the West who are pictured as wanting to destroy the Russian Nation and itis culture and values. Bidens off the cuff remarks have fed into that propraganda.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/21/22 2:44 pm ::: |
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| willtalk wrote: |
The present government in Russia cares little about "World Opinion". What they care about is the opinions and support of the Russian people. Their present talking points in respect to assuring that support is by selling the scenario of " Russia against the World". Any thing that supports that perspective will be utilized to the max. Criticism of Russian Law and their judicial system is perceived as insulting and disrespecting the Russian Nation and its culture.
The Griner issue has become important to them as a way of showing their resistence to Western influence and pressure. The criticism of their legal system made it important in that respect. It has become part of the Putins propaganda to unify the Russian people in support for the war agains the West who are pictured as wanting to destroy the Russian Nation and itis culture and values. Bidens off the cuff remarks have fed into that propraganda. |
There might be some truth to this explaining the delay if freeing BG. However, Putin is losing the trifecta: losing the war, losing world opinion and losing support of Russians. Countries who have no love for the US are condemning Putin and men are leaving Russia by the millions to avoid certain death as a Russian soldier. And Russia does not have women stepping up beside the men to do battle for mother Russia as Ukraine does. Ukrainian women are setting up mutual support systems for families to free up as many men and women as possible to fight for the life of their country.
Back to BG. As stated, willtalk's explanation for the delay in striking a deal to release BG might hold some truth in the short term. But Putin's drop in popularity (due to losing the trifecta) will lead to BG's release sooner rather than later.
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 10/21/22 3:53 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| willtalk wrote: |
The present government in Russia cares little about "World Opinion". What they care about is the opinions and support of the Russian people. Their present talking points in respect to assuring that support is by selling the scenario of " Russia against the World". Any thing that supports that perspective will be utilized to the max. Criticism of Russian Law and their judicial system is perceived as insulting and disrespecting the Russian Nation and its culture.
The Griner issue has become important to them as a way of showing their resistence to Western influence and pressure. The criticism of their legal system made it important in that respect. It has become part of the Putins propaganda to unify the Russian people in support for the war agains the West who are pictured as wanting to destroy the Russian Nation and itis culture and values. Bidens off the cuff remarks have fed into that propraganda. |
There might be some truth to this explaining the delay if freeing BG. However, Putin is losing the trifecta: losing the war, losing world opinion and losing support of Russians. Countries who have no love for the US are condemning Putin and men are leaving Russia by the millions to avoid certain death as a Russian soldier. And Russia does not have women stepping up beside the men to do battle for mother Russia as Ukraine does. Ukrainian women are setting up mutual support systems for families to free up as many men and women as possible to fight for the life of their country.
Back to BG. As stated, willtalk's explanation for the delay in striking a deal to release BG might hold some truth in the short term. But Putin's drop in popularity (due to losing the trifecta) will lead to BG's release sooner rather than later. |
I disagree. I hope I'm wrong but Putin losing the trifecta, as you call it, means he has 0 incentive to release her. Why would someone who is backed into a corner and has no regard for international opinion make any deals at this time? If Putin is truly losing the support of his people, it may not be until Putin is remover from power that a deal can be struck. As for now, Russia maintains a mocking tone towards American efforts to initiate a prisoner swap, which is not good.
I'm hoping something is being done behind the scenes and look forward to the news of BG coming home but I'm not optimistic right now which is painful to think about.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 10/21/22 7:25 pm ::: |
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Folks are making reasonable points and counterpoints.
But I've never believed that Putin personally cares whether BG is in jail, out of jail, on the moon, alive or dead. Nor do I think he personally cares a whit about a few Russians in foreign jails—some of whom, like Bout, aren't even ethnic Russian. Putin's got not only a trifecta but a megafecta of colossally more important international and domestic issues on his plate. He personally gains or loses nothing regardless of the fate of some female player from a tiny sports league.
I suspect there is some apparatchik somewhere in the gigantic Russian bureaucracy who has responsibility for prisoner exchanges. That person would probably make an exchange deal if it's good enough to earn lots of career brownie points with his or her Commie boss. So far, whatever Biden has offered doesn't seem to be good enough. I do agree this apparatchik now has all the negotiating leverage over Biden and not much incentive to do a "fair" deal.
Hope I'm wrong. |
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 10/21/22 7:37 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Folks are making reasonable points and counterpoints.
But I've never believed that Putin personally cares whether BG is in jail, out of jail, on the moon, alive or dead. Nor do I think he personally cares a whit about a few Russians in foreign jails—some of whom, like Bout, aren't even ethnic Russian. Putin's got not only a trifecta but a megafecta of colossally more important international and domestic issues on his plate. He personally gains or loses nothing regardless of the fate of some female player from a tiny sports league.
I suspect there is some apparatchik somewhere in the gigantic Russian bureaucracy who has responsibility for prisoner exchanges. That person would probably make an exchange deal if it's good enough to earn lots of career brownie points with his or her Commie boss. So far, whatever Biden has offered doesn't seem to be good enough. I do agree this apparatchik now has all the negotiating leverage over Biden and not much incentive to do a "fair" deal.
Hope I'm wrong. |
There was an article recently that indicated Russia's demand includes something the US isn't even authorized to grant. I would assume it's the German prisoner?
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 10/22/22 1:51 am ::: |
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| johnjohnW wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Folks are making reasonable points and counterpoints.
But I've never believed that Putin personally cares whether BG is in jail, out of jail, on the moon, alive or dead. Nor do I think he personally cares a whit about a few Russians in foreign jails—some of whom, like Bout, aren't even ethnic Russian. Putin's got not only a trifecta but a megafecta of colossally more important international and domestic issues on his plate. He personally gains or loses nothing regardless of the fate of some female player from a tiny sports league.
I suspect there is some apparatchik somewhere in the gigantic Russian bureaucracy who has responsibility for prisoner exchanges. That person would probably make an exchange deal if it's good enough to earn lots of career brownie points with his or her Commie boss. So far, whatever Biden has offered doesn't seem to be good enough. I do agree this apparatchik now has all the negotiating leverage over Biden and not much incentive to do a "fair" deal.
Hope I'm wrong. |
There was an article recently that indicated Russia's demand includes something the US isn't even authorized to grant. I would assume it's the German prisoner? |
That's been rumored to be what they want for quite a while.
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
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Location: NorCal
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| Posted: 10/22/22 3:29 am ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| willtalk wrote: |
The present government in Russia cares little about "World Opinion". What they care about is the opinions and support of the Russian people. Their present talking points in respect to assuring that support is by selling the scenario of " Russia against the World". Any thing that supports that perspective will be utilized to the max. Criticism of Russian Law and their judicial system is perceived as insulting and disrespecting the Russian Nation and its culture.
The Griner issue has become important to them as a way of showing their resistence to Western influence and pressure. The criticism of their legal system made it important in that respect. It has become part of the Putins propaganda to unify the Russian people in support for the war agains the West who are pictured as wanting to destroy the Russian Nation and itis culture and values. Bidens off the cuff remarks have fed into that propraganda. |
There might be some truth to this explaining the delay if freeing BG. However, Putin is losing the trifecta: losing the war, losing world opinion and losing support of Russians. Countries who have no love for the US are condemning Putin and men are leaving Russia by the millions to avoid certain death as a Russian soldier. And Russia does not have women stepping up beside the men to do battle for mother Russia as Ukraine does. Ukrainian women are setting up mutual support systems for families to free up as many men and women as possible to fight for the life of their country.
Back to BG. As stated, willtalk's explanation for the delay in striking a deal to release BG might hold some truth in the short term. But Putin's drop in popularity (due to losing the trifecta) will lead to BG's release sooner rather than later. |
i should have added that the while there are multiple faction in Russia itself, the ones in charge and in positons of authority and basically run the show are the hard liners. They are the ones who pushed for and support the war against Ukraine based on i the rationalization that, Nato and the West in genera are a threat to and want to destroy Mother Russia. They are the hard core nationalists and the ones that Putin looks to for support. Any one else with a different world perspective is afraid to let their oppinions be known. They find them selves being thrown out of windows.
Everyones beliefs in Russia are not given equal value. It is the hard liners, the reminants of the Communist system, that are the strongest supporters of the war and the ones that Putin can not afford to alienate. They are the foundation of his power. Their entire philosophic agenda, with the war just being one factor, is based on standing up to the West. Any criticism of Russia in any way is used to support the idea that the West wants to destroy Russian culture.
Even the criticism and disqualification of the Russian skater was probable used to solidify the us against the West scenario. Now the majority of Russians probably have not bought into it, but they are not going to speak against the war or Putin for fear of being labeled traitors. The Griner issue, while not that important in itself, is just another thing that reflects and sort of helps to reinforce the " Us aganst the West " taking points.
Yes Putins loss in popularity would also destroy his rational for the need for " the special military opperation" and by extension the reason for maintaining a hard line in respect to Griner. The reality is that popularity in Russian does not have the same power that it does in Western Narions. It will not be the will of the people that will remove Putin, but a coup by other power brokers.
One can see that the majority of Russians do not support the war nor do the think Ukrane or the West are or ever were a threat. People in the West seem to have forgotten or perhaps never realized, that it only takes a small minoriy who through the acquision of power can end up dictating a nations entier direction without the support of the majority. The majority can and is often appeased by buying into some sort of logic or rationalization to justify their own apathy or cowardace.
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
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Location: NorCal
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| Posted: 10/22/22 3:05 pm ::: |
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| Why is my post being posted multiple times without an action on my part. How do I delete the copies. I tried to erase on and it would not let me.
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ChiSky54
Joined: 19 Jun 2019
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| Posted: 10/22/22 4:48 pm ::: |
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| I have posted from my phone and inadvertent duplicates got created...
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 10/22/22 7:26 pm ::: |
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| willtalk wrote: |
| Why is my post being posted multiple times without an action on my part. How do I delete the copies. I tried to erase on and it would not let me. |
It happens when you (or anyone - has happened to me numerous times) hit the submit button and it just sits there like you didn't hit it. Then you hit it again and still nothing. And hit it again and it finally responds, but the first two also went through. If the browser shows that the button was pressed by giving a "processing" icon at the top you just have to wait it out even if it seems like it died.
Last edited by tfan on 10/23/22 3:06 am; edited 3 times in total |
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 10/22/22 7:34 pm ::: |
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| I think any "delay" in striking a deal to get Griner released is that the USA hasn't met Russia's terms. She is serving the sentence they gave her. If the USA wants the sentence reduced they have to make it worth it for Russia to do so. Europe and the USA/Canada/Australia are condemning and sanctioning Russia for invading Ukraine. Releasing Griner early because it makes people in the USA happy isn't going to change the western opinion of Russia, so they have no motivation to do it just because of that.
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ChicagoAnnie
Joined: 04 Sep 2009
Posts: 9199
Location: St. Paul, MN
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| Posted: 10/24/22 12:07 am ::: |
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| johnjohnW wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| willtalk wrote: |
| If people would have shut the F up and not criticized the Russian Judicial System at least until the trial was over, Griner would be in the USA today. |
Utter nonsense, this sentence and the rest. |
You shouldn't easily dismiss their opinion just because it doesn't align with yours. I don't think she would be free today or received a lighter sentence but we never really will know. I do think the US media response and the pressure put on Biden actually has hindered the negotiation attempts. All we did was show our hand, act desperate and inflate her value to the Russians. Clearly Russia knows that Biden is desperate to prove to his base that he values the freedom of a black woman. As he should, but it was a strategic misstep to play such loud lip service to that crowd because Russian knows they can stonewall us, it will make Biden look bad (especially when her wife was accusing the administration of doing nothing despite all that they WERE doing) if he doesn't "bring her home" despite having very little leverage. I don't think Putin cares as much about getting Bout as he does making us look bad, which is what he's succeeding in.
We'll never know how this would've played out but the hysteria didn't help. She's still not free and now we've telegraphed the high value she has to us and Russia is laughing by saying it's not a priority to them. |
+1
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 10/25/22 8:07 am ::: |
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Her appeal was denied.
| Quote: |
The Moscow Regional Court ruled Tuesday to uphold the sentence. In the ruling the court stated, however, that the time Griner will have to serve in prison will be recalculated with her time in pre-trial detention taken into account. One day in pre-trial detention will be counted as 1.5 days in prison, so the basketball player will have to serve around eight years in prison.
Griner took part in the hearing via video call from a penal colony outside Moscow where she is imprisoned. |
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/wnba/2022/10/25/brittney-griners-appeal-drug-sentence-denied-russian-court/10594915002/
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scullyfu
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
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| Posted: 10/25/22 10:35 am ::: |
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| I feel sick. I can only imagine the despair she & her family are experiencing. #WeAreBGq
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 10/25/22 11:18 am ::: |
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| Expected but gut wrenching nonetheless.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 10/25/22 3:59 pm ::: |
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| scullyfu wrote: |
| I feel sick. I can only imagine the despair she & her family are experiencing. #WeAreBGq |
Yes. This is horrible, even for many of us who only know Brittney Griner as fans. For her... for her family... words can't be adequate.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 10/26/22 11:12 am ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| scullyfu wrote: |
| I feel sick. I can only imagine the despair she & her family are experiencing. #WeAreBGq |
Yes. This is horrible, even for many of us who only know Brittney Griner as fans. For her... for her family... words can't be adequate. |
The message that got lost in most news reports is that now BG will be moved from the detention center where she's been staying to one of Russia's penal colonies. Her attys are trying to get her sent to one near Moscow so they can continue to see her, but it's more probable she'll be sent east somewhere.
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WfanFrJmp
Joined: 24 May 2016
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| Posted: 10/26/22 8:55 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| scullyfu wrote: |
| I feel sick. I can only imagine the despair she & her family are experiencing. #WeAreBGq |
Yes. This is horrible, even for many of us who only know Brittney Griner as fans. For her... for her family... words can't be adequate. |
Truly.....
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johnjohnW
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