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lynxmania
Joined: 18 Feb 2011
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 Posted: 03/01/22 9:52 am ::: Liberty fined $500k |
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https://www.si.com/wnba/2022/03/01/charter-flights-violation-new-york-liberty-joe-tsai-daily-cover
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| After someone alerted the WNBA to the Liberty’s violations, possible remedies floated by the league’s general counsel, Jamin Dershowitz, ranged from losing “every draft pick you have ever seen” to suspending ownership, even “grounds for termination of the franchise,” according to a Sept. 21, 2021, communication between the league and the Liberty reviewed by SI. |
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| The action by the Liberty alienated even some owners who support the idea of charter flights, while leaving other owners wondering whether the CBA would be enforced at all. But as the playoffs approached, the WNBA did not want a massive off-court story to get in the way of coverage, either. |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/01/22 11:22 am ::: |
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| I'm curious which owners are still fighting the inevitable move to charters
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root_thing
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 03/01/22 12:09 pm ::: |
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| That's crazy from the players standpoint. From the owners standpoint, I would guess the objections to allowing it would be that some not as well heeled owners would find it hard to compete for players with the more well heeled ones. |
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lynxmania
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 03/01/22 12:16 pm ::: |
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| I am guessing this is a silly question since its probably already public knowledge. (I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention.) Can an addendum be added or anything changed in the CBA during its terms? Or is it ironclad from vote-iin to completion? |
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 03/01/22 12:23 pm ::: |
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| hyperetic wrote: |
| I am guessing this is a silly question since its probably already public knowledge. (I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention.) Can an addendum be added or anything changed in the CBA during its terms? Or is it ironclad from vote-iin to completion? |
If both sides involved agree, you can change anything any time you want. If everyone involved agrees you can tear up or re-write pretty much any contract you like. |
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SportsGuru
Joined: 20 May 2005
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| Posted: 03/01/22 12:39 pm ::: Re: Liberty fined $500k |
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| lynxmania wrote: |
https://www.si.com/wnba/2022/03/01/charter-flights-violation-new-york-liberty-joe-tsai-daily-cover
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| After someone alerted the WNBA to the Liberty’s violations, possible remedies floated by the league’s general counsel, Jamin Dershowitz, ranged from losing “every draft pick you have ever seen” to suspending ownership, even “grounds for termination of the franchise,” according to a Sept. 21, 2021, communication between the league and the Liberty reviewed by SI. |
| Quote: |
| The action by the Liberty alienated even some owners who support the idea of charter flights, while leaving other owners wondering whether the CBA would be enforced at all. But as the playoffs approached, the WNBA did not want a massive off-court story to get in the way of coverage, either. |
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| The Liberty, who declined to comment to SI, chartered flights for each road game of the season’s second half, beginning in August with a trip to Minnesota. And eventually, despite a cone of silence over the franchise about it, word got out. |
Don't get me wrong, I long thought the WNBA should be traveling by Charter Jets but what the New York Liberty did created an unfair advantage to win games.
A Code of Silence means Conspiracy throughout the New Yor Liberty Organization {Management & Players). I believe the New York Liberty should a long with the $500K fine, lose at the minimum their 2022 and 2023 1st Rd Draft Picks and 2023 Salary Cap frozen at 2022 amount.
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Bob Lamm
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pilight
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SportsGuru
Joined: 20 May 2005
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| Posted: 03/01/22 2:41 pm ::: |
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| The New York Liberty are cheaters, their Owner, Management and Players all are cheaters just like the 2018 Houston Astros. I wouldn't want any of the 2021 New York Liberty Players on my team.
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HomerCecil
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 03/01/22 2:59 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| lynxmania wrote: |
| No wonder Stewart and Loyd took meetings with them. They knew they’d get perks since the CBA doesn’t apply to NY teams :wink: :lol: |
Also the Seattle group is not as wealthy as most of the other owners plus has the longest average flight distance in the league. They're probably top of the list of the owners fighting against charters. |
Is there even an ownership group in the WNBA with a lesser combined net worth than Force 10?
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pilight
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| Posted: 03/01/22 3:08 pm ::: |
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| HomerCecil wrote: |
| The article says Tsai claimed he could get a charter company to sponsor the costs for the next three years. He might be blowing smoke, but it seems like that could be worth looking into |
We don't know what stipulations were attached to the offer. It's unlikely they were doing it just to be the official airline of the W.
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 03/01/22 3:13 pm ::: |
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| HomerCecil wrote: |
| I don't think comparing the Liberty's chartering flights is comparable to the Astros stealing signs in games, but we're all free to have our own opinions... |
It's not 100 percent apples to apples, but I also don't think that matters.
I could make a case that what Tsai did was worse, because anybody who is sufficiently unscrupulous can cheat the way the Astros did. You actually need the resources and the wherewithal to cheat the way that Tsai did. The Liberty's actions potentially created a competitive advantage for themselves, in giving them the ability to acquire the best talent. Going back to an old topic of players taking less money, a superstar or two might be willing to sign for way below market value, if they know that they'll get it all back, and then some, in the form of under-the-table perks that other teams don't have the financial means to counter.
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HomerCecil
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| Posted: 03/01/22 3:15 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| HomerCecil wrote: |
| I don't think comparing the Liberty's chartering flights is comparable to the Astros stealing signs in games, but we're all free to have our own opinions... |
It's not 100 percent apples to apples, but I also don't think that matters.
I could make a case that what Tsai did was worse, because anybody who is sufficiently unscrupulous can cheat the way the Astros did. You actually need the resources and the wherewithal to cheat the way that Tsai did. The Liberty's actions potentially created a competitive advantage for themselves, in giving them the ability to acquire the best talent. Going back to an old topic of players taking less money, a superstar or two might be willing to sign for way below market value, if they know that they'll get it all back, and then some, in the form of under-the-table perks that other teams don't have the financial means to counter. |
Fair point. I think it is possible that it could be good the Liberty got caught and are punished, but also good for the other owners to know they might need to step up their games moving forward.
As someone who has followed the league for nearly its entire existence, the fact that someone cares enough to want his team to have a competitive advantage is noteworthy to me. Again, not saying he was right at all in doing it. It's just refreshing to see owners who want their teams to succeed and want the players to get better treatment.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 03/01/22 3:20 pm ::: |
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| SportsGuru wrote: |
| The New York Liberty are cheaters, their Owner, Management and Players all are cheaters just like the 2018 Houston Astros. I wouldn't want any of the 2021 New York Liberty Players on my team. |
Right, trying to fix the travel problem for EVERYONE is comparable to cheating in games. You sure have a great sense of proportionality.
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| the Liberty said they’d found a way to get it comped for everyone in the league for three years—but it lacked majority support. Some owners worried that players would get used to it, so there’d be no going back, and others wondered whether players might just prefer a salary hike instead. |
We've had delays prompt discussions of forfeits. It makes the WNBA seem like a bush league. Joe Tsai got tired of it and he found a solution. Still, people wouldn't get on board, so he got frustrated and went off on his own. Probably shouldn't have done it, but to paint him as intentionally cheating to gain an advantage is to willfully ignore the actual circumtances. Also, it doesn't sound like the only objection from other owners is because they're poor:
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| For some owners, the WNBA team has been a place to park losses elsewhere in their corporations. Some view it as pure charity—one WNBA owner proudly proclaims the value of the WNBA team to be zero, according to multiple league sources, and thus all he spends on his team is effectively a contribution toward the greater good of women’s sports. And others have invested consistently in their teams, turning about half of them into consistent profit makers. |
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RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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| Posted: 03/01/22 3:32 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| HomerCecil wrote: |
| I don't think comparing the Liberty's chartering flights is comparable to the Astros stealing signs in games, but we're all free to have our own opinions... |
It's not 100 percent apples to apples, but I also don't think that matters.
I could make a case that what Tsai did was worse, because anybody who is sufficiently unscrupulous can cheat the way the Astros did. You actually need the resources and the wherewithal to cheat the way that Tsai did. The Liberty's actions potentially created a competitive advantage for themselves, in giving them the ability to acquire the best talent. Going back to an old topic of players taking less money, a superstar or two might be willing to sign for way below market value, if they know that they'll get it all back, and then some, in the form of under-the-table perks that other teams don't have the financial means to counter. |
Just like the Phoenix Mercury and Taurasi did laying out, lying and cheating for close to half a season to get Griner. Today, ethics and morales are out the window. Sadly, winning is the only thing that matters regardless of how or what it takes to do so.
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PUmatty
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pilight
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| Posted: 03/01/22 3:55 pm ::: |
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| Quote: |
| Some view it as pure charity—one WNBA owner proudly proclaims the value of the WNBA team to be zero, according to multiple league sources, and thus all he spends on his team is effectively a contribution toward the greater good of women’s sports |
This has to be Herb Simon, right?
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 03/01/22 3:55 pm ::: |
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| HomerCecil wrote: |
| As someone who has followed the league for nearly its entire existence, the fact that someone cares enough to want his team to have a competitive advantage is noteworthy to me. Again, not saying he was right at all in doing it. It's just refreshing to see owners who want their teams to succeed and want the players to get better treatment. |
Oh, it's absolutely noteworthy. And hell, if I had Joe Tsai's bank account, I'd totally pull the same stunt... I would be offering Griner and Vandersloot NBA money, under the table, to get them to play for my team.
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Hawkeye
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
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| Posted: 03/01/22 3:56 pm ::: |
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| SportsGuru wrote: |
| The New York Liberty are cheaters, their Owner, Management and Players all are cheaters just like the 2018 Houston Astros. I wouldn't want any of the 2021 New York Liberty Players on my team. |
Get your years correct....2018 was the Boston Red Sox cheating to a World Series....of course everyone just gave them a pass and scapegoated the video guy. But then, Boston is a glamor team like the Yankees and get away with anything they want.
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Hawkeye
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root_thing
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| Posted: 03/01/22 4:00 pm ::: |
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Again, Tsai got a deal for EVERY TEAM to get FREE charters for THREE YEARS. It was only after they turned him down, that he went off on his own. This is within the context of his team having experienced a half-day wait for a flight that never materialized. Then the Liberty had to come back early the next morning to try again.
I'm not saying that the Liberty shouldn't be fined, but all this moralizing and comparing it to the Astros intentionally cheating is total nonsense! The Tsai's were frustrated that what looked like a perfectly good solution for the whole league was voted down. Some owners worried that the deal wouldn't be renewed after three years and then they'd have to pay for it themselves. That's an expectation of failure. More than anything, it's probably what caused Tsai to get frustrated and go off on his own.
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 03/01/22 4:00 pm ::: |
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| RavenDog wrote: |
| Just like the Phoenix Mercury and Taurasi did laying out, lying and cheating for close to half a season to get Griner... |
Remember, it's not what you "know," it's what you can prove.
And the thing about Phoenix is, Everybody Knows™ what they did, but they didn't technically cheat. They exploited a loophole in the rules; that's an important distinction.
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