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ChasingRatDogmaSalade



Joined: 05 Apr 2008
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Location: Las Vegas, NV


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PostPosted: 10/03/22 12:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SportsGuru wrote:
Will the WNBA have a 40 Game Schedule in 2023 and play will start earlier in May ?


40 games, and a later start since we don't have World Cup/Olympics on the back end.


SportsGuru



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PostPosted: 10/03/22 5:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ChasingRatDogmaSalade wrote:
SportsGuru wrote:
Will the WNBA have a 40 Game Schedule in 2023 and play will start earlier in May ?


40 games, and a later start since we don't have World Cup/Olympics on the back end.


So, with the WNBA starting the 2023 later than usual the prioritization will likely affect a few WNBA players playing in the French League?


Stormeo



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PostPosted: 11/30/22 12:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I found this interesting earlier today watching the US in the World Cup and wanted to mention it.

https://twitter.com/PaulTenorio/status/1597656353203527680

Quote:
The USMNT lineup has no MLS players in it for first time at a World Cup since the league launched in 1996.

The lineup is all Euro-based for the first time in USMNT history.


Could this someday become the dynamic between the WNBA and Team USA in wbb someday – even if it's to a lesser degree than in men's soccer, since some WNBA stars already opt not to play overseas – if Prioritization were to ever become a consistent prevailing force? where more of Team USA's players than not come only from Euro rosters?

I'm really interested in seeing Prioritization play out, and not necessarily dreading it... It might be a long time coming.


johnjohnW



Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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PostPosted: 11/30/22 1:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
I found this interesting earlier today watching the US in the World Cup and wanted to mention it.

https://twitter.com/PaulTenorio/status/1597656353203527680

Quote:
The USMNT lineup has no MLS players in it for first time at a World Cup since the league launched in 1996.

The lineup is all Euro-based for the first time in USMNT history.


Could this someday become the dynamic between the WNBA and Team USA in wbb someday – even if it's to a lesser degree than in men's soccer, since some WNBA stars already opt not to play overseas – if Prioritization were to ever become a consistent prevailing force? where more of Team USA's players than not come only from Euro rosters?

I'm really interested in seeing Prioritization play out, and not necessarily dreading it... It might be a long time coming.


The situations aren't really comparable. MLS is not the top tier league in the world. The reason all of Team USA are from Euro squads is because they are so good that they are too good for the MLS and can get a roster spot on a Euro team.


Stormeo



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PostPosted: 11/30/22 3:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

johnjohnW wrote:
The situations aren't really comparable. MLS is not the top tier league in the world. The reason all of Team USA are from Euro squads is because they are so good that they are too good for the MLS and can get a roster spot on a Euro team.


As they are right now, no – they aren't all that comparable. Still, even now, there is one similarity: The leagues that pay the best and thus theoretically have the leverage over competing leagues are overseas, not domestic. (With the top American players' desires to stay at home and forgo salary potentially being an equalizer here in the wbb world, where again, the dynamics really are quite different than in the men's soccer/football world.)

And that's the point. If the top WNBA players have to start choosing between the W or overseas, and the money disparity between the US' one main league and Eurasia's leagues remains significant, most of the US audience may only regularly see a chunk of Team USA's roster when they play in Worlds or the Olympics.

I don't know how likely it is – probably not too likely – but it remains possible. So, it's something to perhaps contemplate.


johnjohnW



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PostPosted: 11/30/22 6:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
johnjohnW wrote:
The situations aren't really comparable. MLS is not the top tier league in the world. The reason all of Team USA are from Euro squads is because they are so good that they are too good for the MLS and can get a roster spot on a Euro team.


As they are right now, no – they aren't all that comparable. Still, even now, there is one similarity: The leagues that pay the best and thus theoretically have the leverage over competing leagues are overseas, not domestic. (With the top American players' desires to stay at home and forgo salary potentially being an equalizer here in the wbb world, where again, the dynamics really are quite different than in the men's soccer/football world.)

And that's the point. If the top WNBA players have to start choosing between the W or overseas, and the money disparity between the US' one main league and Eurasia's leagues remains significant, most of the US audience may only regularly see a chunk of Team USA's roster when they play in Worlds or the Olympics.

I don't know how likely it is – probably not too likely – but it remains possible. So, it's something to perhaps contemplate.


I think we are going to see a seismic recession in the overseas salaries. Russia is pretty much done. Does China still pay well? Also, it can't be underestimated how much "playing in the W" matters when scoring those overseas contracts. American players who play abroad are hired for their popularity just as much as they are their skill.


pilight



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PostPosted: 11/30/22 8:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One good thing about Prioritization, it incentivizes the W to get their schedule out earlier



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awhom111



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PostPosted: 11/30/22 11:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Now that we have a schedule, I for one look forward to Blake Dietrick intentionally sabotaging Lyon in the semifinals just so that she is available to be signed.

johnjohnW wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
johnjohnW wrote:
The situations aren't really comparable. MLS is not the top tier league in the world. The reason all of Team USA are from Euro squads is because they are so good that they are too good for the MLS and can get a roster spot on a Euro team.


As they are right now, no – they aren't all that comparable. Still, even now, there is one similarity: The leagues that pay the best and thus theoretically have the leverage over competing leagues are overseas, not domestic. (With the top American players' desires to stay at home and forgo salary potentially being an equalizer here in the wbb world, where again, the dynamics really are quite different than in the men's soccer/football world.)

And that's the point. If the top WNBA players have to start choosing between the W or overseas, and the money disparity between the US' one main league and Eurasia's leagues remains significant, most of the US audience may only regularly see a chunk of Team USA's roster when they play in Worlds or the Olympics.

I don't know how likely it is – probably not too likely – but it remains possible. So, it's something to perhaps contemplate.


I think we are going to see a seismic recession in the overseas salaries. Russia is pretty much done. Does China still pay well? Also, it can't be underestimated how much "playing in the W" matters when scoring those overseas contracts. American players who play abroad are hired for their popularity just as much as they are their skill.


China still does not allow foreigners and even if they did, the money available is nothing like pre-pandemic. Turkey is still struggling too. The teams in Russia that were paying are still paying. It's just that less people want to take them up on the offer.

Public data is usually hard to come by, but Valencia presented a budget this season of 2.5 million euros for their women's team and 17.55 million euros for their men's team.

I think that there will be always be a little of bumpiness as long as the prioritization section exists, but in the long term, it looks likely that WNBA salaries will continue to grow and overseas salaries will stay steady at best.
Richyyy



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PostPosted: 11/30/22 11:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
One good thing about Prioritization, it incentivizes the W to get their schedule out earlier

For what it's worth, people within the league have basically known that May 19th date for ages (it's usually a 'probable' date for a while before they lock it in). If they know it then I would hope the player agents know it, and then inevitably the overseas leagues end up knowing it. But I have no idea where that chain would break down.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 12/01/22 5:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

awhom111 wrote:
Now that we have a schedule, I for one look forward to Blake Dietrick intentionally sabotaging Lyon in the semifinals just so that she is available to be signed.


Embarassed why does it always have to be her Embarassed Embarassed

awhom111 wrote:
China still does not allow foreigners and even if they did, the money available is nothing like pre-pandemic. Turkey is still struggling too. The teams in Russia that were paying are still paying. It's just that less people want to take them up on the offer.

Public data is usually hard to come by, but Valencia presented a budget this season of 2.5 million euros for their women's team and 17.55 million euros for their men's team.

I think that there will be always be a little of bumpiness as long as the prioritization section exists, but in the long term, it looks likely that WNBA salaries will continue to grow and overseas salaries will stay steady at best.


We'll cross this bridge when we come to it, but I wonder if upon Griner's release from Russia's clutches we'll begin to see top (WNBA) players sign back with Russian teams. Maybe not right away, but eventually. Again though, a bridge we'll cross when we get to it.

I'm guessing China will someday let foreigners play for them again – though I don't think they'll ever reach that 'zero covid' goal they've been striving for at the rate they're going, assuming that's the 'only' roadblock here.

I only hope that with all this instability re: these overseas leagues for different reasons, the W can take advantage. If Prioritization proves to keep X amount of star players out of the League, I wonder what that does to salary negotiations in the next CBA. It all just blends together to be one incredibly fluid situation.


awhom111



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PostPosted: 12/03/22 12:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
awhom111 wrote:
Now that we have a schedule, I for one look forward to Blake Dietrick intentionally sabotaging Lyon in the semifinals just so that she is available to be signed.


Embarassed why does it always have to be her Embarassed Embarassed

awhom111 wrote:
China still does not allow foreigners and even if they did, the money available is nothing like pre-pandemic. Turkey is still struggling too. The teams in Russia that were paying are still paying. It's just that less people want to take them up on the offer.

Public data is usually hard to come by, but Valencia presented a budget this season of 2.5 million euros for their women's team and 17.55 million euros for their men's team.

I think that there will be always be a little of bumpiness as long as the prioritization section exists, but in the long term, it looks likely that WNBA salaries will continue to grow and overseas salaries will stay steady at best.


We'll cross this bridge when we come to it, but I wonder if upon Griner's release from Russia's clutches we'll begin to see top (WNBA) players sign back with Russian teams. Maybe not right away, but eventually. Again though, a bridge we'll cross when we get to it.

I'm guessing China will someday let foreigners play for them again – though I don't think they'll ever reach that 'zero covid' goal they've been striving for at the rate they're going, assuming that's the 'only' roadblock here.

I only hope that with all this instability re: these overseas leagues for different reasons, the W can take advantage. If Prioritization proves to keep X amount of star players out of the League, I wonder what that does to salary negotiations in the next CBA. It all just blends together to be one incredibly fluid situation.


China is not preventing foreigners due to COVID. The issue is that COVID hurt too many teams financially and only a few teams can really afford even good local players so the roster consolidation of stars from last season may be even worse this season. The men's league allows foreigners, but the money there is not what it was pre-pandemic either. The difference in foreign players between the leagues is the same now in South Korea and I suspect that Japan's national team success with no foreigners in their league made both countries reconsider their approaches. China's World Cup success after the first superteam season may make them think that this is working.

Looking back at the list of foreigners in the last games before the pandemic suspended their league is interesting: Kelley Cain, Kalani Brown, Cheyenne Parker, Stefanie Dolson, Natasha Howard, Theresa Plaisance, Natasha Cloud, Jelena Dubljevic, Tina Charles, Amanda Zahui B, Teaira McCowan, Kelsey Bone, Maggie Lucas, Liz Cambage, Aerial Powers, and Amber Harris.
Stormeo



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PostPosted: 12/03/22 4:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

awhom111 wrote:
China is not preventing foreigners due to COVID. The issue is that COVID hurt too many teams financially and only a few teams can really afford even good local players so the roster consolidation of stars from last season may be even worse this season. The men's league allows foreigners, but the money there is not what it was pre-pandemic either. The difference in foreign players between the leagues is the same now in South Korea and I suspect that Japan's national team success with no foreigners in their league made both countries reconsider their approaches. China's World Cup success after the first superteam season may make them think that this is working.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. So their wbb league’s new normal might stick. That’s good for the W afaic.

awhom111 wrote:
Looking back at the list of foreigners in the last games before the pandemic suspended their league is interesting: Kelley Cain, Kalani Brown, Cheyenne Parker, Stefanie Dolson, Natasha Howard, Theresa Plaisance, Natasha Cloud, Jelena Dubljevic, Tina Charles, Amanda Zahui B, Teaira McCowan, Kelsey Bone, Maggie Lucas, Liz Cambage, Aerial Powers, and Amber Harris.

Cloud, Lucas, and Powers stick out like sore thumbs here. They must’ve been on teams that already had a homegrown center. But man, these days are over! I even remember when they had their own version of a draft. (Or was that just South Korea’s league? I don’t even remember anymore, damn…)


awhom111



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PostPosted: 12/03/22 6:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
awhom111 wrote:
China is not preventing foreigners due to COVID. The issue is that COVID hurt too many teams financially and only a few teams can really afford even good local players so the roster consolidation of stars from last season may be even worse this season. The men's league allows foreigners, but the money there is not what it was pre-pandemic either. The difference in foreign players between the leagues is the same now in South Korea and I suspect that Japan's national team success with no foreigners in their league made both countries reconsider their approaches. China's World Cup success after the first superteam season may make them think that this is working.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. So their wbb league’s new normal might stick. That’s good for the W afaic.

awhom111 wrote:
Looking back at the list of foreigners in the last games before the pandemic suspended their league is interesting: Kelley Cain, Kalani Brown, Cheyenne Parker, Stefanie Dolson, Natasha Howard, Theresa Plaisance, Natasha Cloud, Jelena Dubljevic, Tina Charles, Amanda Zahui B, Teaira McCowan, Kelsey Bone, Maggie Lucas, Liz Cambage, Aerial Powers, and Amber Harris.

Cloud, Lucas, and Powers stick out like sore thumbs here. They must’ve been on teams that already had a homegrown center. But man, these days are over! I even remember when they had their own version of a draft. (Or was that just South Korea’s league? I don’t even remember anymore, damn…)


Not really the case for Cloud and Lucas, which led to some interesting results. Guangdong had Li Yueru back then along with Dilana Dilixiati so Powers kind of made sense, although I think that their hope was to replace her with Nneka for the playoffs.

China's draft is for certain Chinese players. It was South Korea that did a draft for foreigners along with a draft for Koreans turning professional. While the odds there were not good, at least there was no reason to not apply. In the last season of their foreigner draft on the men's side, they had 700+ applicants for a handful of spots and would invite a couple hundred of them to tryouts in Las Vegas. Back when the women's league had foreigners, that was probably the closest to relative salary equity for Americans in any professional league. It was $25k per month for women and for second round picks in the men's league and $35k per month for men's first round picks, but the men's season is longer.
Stormeo



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PostPosted: 12/05/22 4:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

awhom111 wrote:
China's draft is for certain Chinese players. It was South Korea that did a draft for foreigners along with a draft for Koreans turning professional. While the odds there were not good, at least there was no reason to not apply. In the last season of their foreigner draft on the men's side, they had 700+ applicants for a handful of spots and would invite a couple hundred of them to tryouts in Las Vegas. Back when the women's league had foreigners, that was probably the closest to relative salary equity for Americans in any professional league. It was $25k per month for women and for second round picks in the men's league and $35k per month for men's first round picks, but the men's season is longer.


Thanks for the clarification. So it was South Korea's league, ok. The salary equity I had no idea about though – fascinating. Never heard about it at the time. And wasn't the Korean league one of the leagues with a notably shorter calendar? $25k/month seems super lucrative, until one realizes that it probably only goes the length of the season, which was maybe 6 months? I mean, don't get me wrong, ~$150k in a season is still quite good, but, at least the W can compete with that nowadays. (Although it may be evident that I don't have much of a sense on how much 'good' overseas salaries can vary.)


GEF34



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PostPosted: 12/05/22 5:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
awhom111 wrote:
China's draft is for certain Chinese players. It was South Korea that did a draft for foreigners along with a draft for Koreans turning professional. While the odds there were not good, at least there was no reason to not apply. In the last season of their foreigner draft on the men's side, they had 700+ applicants for a handful of spots and would invite a couple hundred of them to tryouts in Las Vegas. Back when the women's league had foreigners, that was probably the closest to relative salary equity for Americans in any professional league. It was $25k per month for women and for second round picks in the men's league and $35k per month for men's first round picks, but the men's season is longer.


Thanks for the clarification. So it was South Korea's league, ok. The salary equity I had no idea about though – fascinating. Never heard about it at the time. And wasn't the Korean league one of the leagues with a notably shorter calendar? $25k/month seems super lucrative, until one realizes that it probably only goes the length of the season, which was maybe 6 months? I mean, don't get me wrong, ~$150k in a season is still quite good, but, at least the W can compete with that nowadays. (Although it may be evident that I don't have much of a sense on how much 'good' overseas salaries can vary.)


Not sure about South Korea specifically, but some overseas teams/countries don't have taxes or cover taxes so the players take home more of their overall income as well as they don't have to pay for cars/rent/food/insurance/etc. that comes out of their pocket when playing in the WNBA.


awhom111



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PostPosted: 12/05/22 11:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GEF34 wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
awhom111 wrote:
China's draft is for certain Chinese players. It was South Korea that did a draft for foreigners along with a draft for Koreans turning professional. While the odds there were not good, at least there was no reason to not apply. In the last season of their foreigner draft on the men's side, they had 700+ applicants for a handful of spots and would invite a couple hundred of them to tryouts in Las Vegas. Back when the women's league had foreigners, that was probably the closest to relative salary equity for Americans in any professional league. It was $25k per month for women and for second round picks in the men's league and $35k per month for men's first round picks, but the men's season is longer.


Thanks for the clarification. So it was South Korea's league, ok. The salary equity I had no idea about though – fascinating. Never heard about it at the time. And wasn't the Korean league one of the leagues with a notably shorter calendar? $25k/month seems super lucrative, until one realizes that it probably only goes the length of the season, which was maybe 6 months? I mean, don't get me wrong, ~$150k in a season is still quite good, but, at least the W can compete with that nowadays. (Although it may be evident that I don't have much of a sense on how much 'good' overseas salaries can vary.)


Not sure about South Korea specifically, but some overseas teams/countries don't have taxes or cover taxes so the players take home more of their overall income as well as they don't have to pay for cars/rent/food/insurance/etc. that comes out of their pocket when playing in the WNBA.


Yeah, the $25k is after taxes, which look pretty comparable to the United States so players should be taking that all home and not spending anything on living expenses in Korea. I think we saw based on the players who ended up there how it pays compared to other leagues as players seemed to "graduate" out of there once they reached a certain level in the WNBA, but it did also have the bonus of always paying on time.

The equity does not really extend to local salaries, including for Korean-Americans. Granted, Kim Roberson, who you would not know unless you were really following the Big Ten a decade and a half ago, is pulling in $230,000 after taxes and Kianna Smith figures to be a max player in the future, but it is not the reported seven figures that top Korean men have been able to make. The highest salary on the women's side is something around $400,000 after taxes and the total cap is like $1.3 million after taxes.
ChiSky54



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PostPosted: 12/10/22 8:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Not completely sure this is the right place to put this.

Warning - long-assed article!

https://sports.yahoo.com/what-the-wnba-is-doing-to-incentivize-its-players-to-stay-home-instead-of-going-overseas-033221494.html
Quote:
It is a reality the league has been working to change and it has taken more prescience with Griner’s detainment. Because if there are truly to be “no more days” for Griner or any other WNBA player to be wrongfully detained in a foreign country they’re visiting for work, then the league and supporters of women’s sports have a plethora of steps they can take moving forward.

The league is already trying, as commissioner Cathy Engelbert, who took the job in 2019, noted in a call with reporters hours after the White House released the Griner news.



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craigmont



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PostPosted: 12/10/22 5:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Any US citizen (or one of any NATO or EU country) would be absolutely nuts to travel to Russia now.


awhom111



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PostPosted: 01/03/23 12:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

awhom111 wrote:
I still wonder about enforcement on people who play in leagues that do not run on the traditional calendar and people who have been out of the league for a while. Like let's say that Alanna Smith gets waived this season and has no offers early in free agency next season. Trying to stay in shape and looking to earn at least a little money playing, she then signs with an NBL1 team and plays there before WNBA training camps start. If a WNBA team is interested in signing her later in the season, would the league really step in and tell them that she is ineligible to sign?


I have not been paying much attention to the early NBL1 season signings since the games are more than two months away. I guess that Alanna Smith is the first player subject to prioritization who has made any kind of official commitment that would cover a period rendering her ineligible to play in the WNBA next season after she signed with the Hobart Chargers, the closest team to where her parents live, back on December 8th for when her season in Poland ends.
awhom111



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PostPosted: 01/16/23 12:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I know that we have all been a little confused about the one year contract narrative, but it does make sense if players want to avoid accidentally getting themselves in a situation where they get suspended in a year their contract expires.
awhom111



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PostPosted: 01/20/23 11:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

With prioritization being brought again today, I was wondering what everyone thinks of how the rules would be applied to players not under contract who have "completed their off-season playing obligation" before the suspension date who then play for someone else in a way that a player under contract could not without violating the in-season departure section.

The obvious cases of this would be Gabby Williams, Astou Ndour-Fall, and Emma Meesseman training with their national team. Players who might join random 3x3 tournaments and any leagues that are fully contained in the WNBA season probably would also want to know. If that is allowed and Lyon is eliminated before the finals in France, it might make sense for Gabby Williams to pre-negotiate signing in the little window after EuroBasket and before the July 1st Restricted Free Agent date.
Richyyy



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PostPosted: 01/21/23 1:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think if they did something that's a stated exception for people under contract in the league - so Williams training with France, then playing for them in EuroBasket, as long as it was a max of two weeks training beforehand - it should be considered fine. Pretty much anything else, I think they're screwed. “Off-Season Playing Obligation” is defined in the CBA, and it's a pretty broad definition, including playing for anyone else during the WNBA season.



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awhom111



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PostPosted: 04/01/23 4:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

L'Equipe did an interview with Gabby Williams that is summarized on non-paywalled French sites.

She is fully aware that if Lyon makes the finals, that she will not be able to sign in the WNBA. The plan if they did not make it to the championship series was originally to sign for Seattle and play there until she could join the national team in a prioritization-compliant window. The federation is apparently not planning on considering any players for the team who do not make themselves available for the entire training camp.

If Lyon does lose before the finals, it feels like the conspiracy theories are going to come out in full force unless Gabby does absolutely everything that she can to keep them in contention. I would still want to believe that it would be Blake Dietrick sabotaging them though. Since fredFC will probably read this, it would actually be Marie-Sophie Obama's fault, obviously. It is certainly not the only story involving Lyon or Tony Parker this week as the men's team was just handed down a punishment for breaking league rules around NIL deals. This is significant as the person who initially reported the accusation also said that there were players on the women's team who had also signed those contracts to dodge taxes.
Richyyy



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PostPosted: 04/01/23 7:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

awhom111 wrote:
L'Equipe did an interview with Gabby Williams that is summarized on non-paywalled French sites.

She is fully aware that if Lyon makes the finals, that she will not be able to sign in the WNBA. The plan if they did not make it to the championship series was originally to sign for Seattle and play there until she could join the national team in a prioritization-compliant window. The federation is apparently not planning on considering any players for the team who do not make themselves available for the entire training camp.

From what I remember, their training camp starts before their domestic playoffs have even ended. So something doesn't add up there. Even if Lyon were eliminated early, there's no way she could stay within the WNBA's prioritization rules and attend the whole of the French camp (without going really loophole-y, anyway). Also makes you wonder what the plan is with Johannes, even though the prioriization rules don't apply to her.

Gonna get interesting if Lyon are eliminated early...



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awhom111



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PostPosted: 04/30/23 3:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I will be trying to keep an up to date 2023 Prioritization tracker here:
https://wbasketballblog.com/2023/04/30/2023-wnba-prioritization-tracker/

It will fill up a lot more midweek once some players officially play after training camp has started.
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