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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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 Posted: 09/28/21 1:45 pm ::: |
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| If Onyenwere isn't traded, what exactly is her ceiling on this team? She got benched toward the end of the season, so I don't think Hop himself quite knows at this point. She seems to be the most 'tradeable' out of anyone on the team; I think she could start at the 3 for some team right now, but with Betnijah Laney on this team, it just doesn't make sense to me to keep Onyenwere on it when the team has other position-related issues that need addressing. Whether or not Allen re-signs, SF is by far the Liberty's most stable position – their glutton of true wing players aside.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 09/28/21 2:03 pm ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
| If Onyenwere isn't traded, what exactly is her ceiling on this team? She got benched toward the end of the season, so I don't think Hop himself quite knows at this point. She seems to be the most 'tradeable' out of anyone on the team; I think she could start at the 3 for some team right now, but with Betnijah Laney on this team, it just doesn't make sense to me to keep Onyenwere on it when the team has other position-related issues that need addressing. Whether or not Allen re-signs, SF is by far the Liberty's most stable position – their glutton of true wing players aside. |
Exactly what I've been thinking. Plus this: imagine if our roster weren't overloaded at Onyenwere's ideal #3 position. Imagine if New York (or some other team) were to go into the 2022 season with Onyenwere starting at #3 and expected to play 30 minutes. I'm curious: how good do people think she can be in 2022 and beyond? At times she looked great, but as Stormeo notes she went from being a starter to a bench player and only on the court for nine minutes in the season's most crucial game.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 09/28/21 2:03 pm ::: |
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| Allen and Onyenwere shared the PF position this season. If NY brings in a real PF or moves Howard to PF to make room for a true C, then obviously Bec and Michaela lose most of their minutes -- all if the Liberty add two good post players. Obviously, one of Bec or Mic could move to SF as a backup. But that has a ripple effect on Jones, Richards, Willoughby and maybe Durr if she returns. So, keeping both Allen and Onyenwere appears unlikely. If you can find a trade for Onyenwere, it would make sense to cash in now. Look what happened to Jones. Last season, she was a dynamic player who could defend and also give you double-digit scoring (10.8 ppg) off the bench. Now, Jaz has become an inconsistent player who often disappears and doesn't seem to mesh with her teammates. I believe Onyenwere has a higher basketball IQ than Jones, so she should develop into a solid player if moved to her natural pro position at small forward. Unfortunately, on the Liberty, she is blocked by Laney unless they move Betnijah to SG. The reduction in minutes is likely to hinder Onyenwere's development and depreciate her value.
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undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
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| Posted: 09/28/21 2:11 pm ::: |
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| So everyone is assuming 1 or 2 true post players will be brought in, because it seems so obvious to us that that is what the Libs need. But do we have any evidence that management sees it the same way? The commitment to small ball seems quite stubborn... in which case Onyenwere and Allen may very well be retained and continue to split minutes at the 4.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 09/28/21 2:33 pm ::: |
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2020
Posts- Howard, Shook, Gray
Wings- Laney, Allen, Onyenwere, Odom, Willoughby
Gaurds Ionescu, Whitcomb, Richards, Jones
2021
Posts- Howard, free agent (MHA, Dolson, Russell? Meesseman? other) pick #5 (Austin, Cunane)
Wings- Laney, Allen, Onyenwere, Willoughby, (Richards)
Gaurds- Ionescu, Whitcomb, Richards, Durr, Jones or other (Johannes if she shows who would also probably be a few spots higher in the depth chart, Kea, L. Allen, other)
It basically keeps the structure and balance the way the coach and GM have the last two seasons, while upgrading the talent
replacing Shook and Gray with a free agent and high draft pick
on the court replacing Odom with Willoughby
on the depth chart putting a returning Durr (hopefully if healthy) ahead of Jones
deciding between Jones a defensive stopper or (other) a ball handler and/or shooter
This chart is more how I think things will payout than my own opinion but even if I would do things a little different this makes some level of sense to me
I could also see them keeping Shook over Jones a rebalancing the team in a little more traditional structure
Last edited by J-Spoon on 09/28/21 2:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 09/28/21 2:41 pm ::: |
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Trading Onyenwere is an interesting idea but for what? (TBH I would rather just keep Onyenwere I think there is a lot of potential, even though I agree with the current high value and minutes blockage that exists if we bring in a better PF or move Howard to the PF spot, OTOH I don't think Onyenwere is a clear starter yet anyway so having her on the bench isn't really that problematic yet).
Vadeeva is interesting but not sure how she feels about the W in general and why if she wanted to return she wouldn't first go back to LA, but would certainly be a good pick up.
IMO our most valuable trade asset is the #5 pick.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 09/28/21 3:07 pm ::: |
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| undersized_post wrote: |
| So everyone is assuming 1 or 2 true post players will be brought in, because it seems so obvious to us that that is what the Libs need. But do we have any evidence that management sees it the same way? The commitment to small ball seems quite stubborn... in which case Onyenwere and Allen may very well be retained and continue to split minutes at the 4. |
I don't think most Liberty fans are assuming anything. Personally, I've made a point of using the word "if" a lot. However, I do believe a compromise approach is realistic. That means bringing in smaller, quicker posts -- bigger than what they have now but still not the 6-5 and above types. Again, whether their offense is "positionless" or "read and react" or both, neither philosophy requires that you be small. Kolb and Hopkins are probably taking their cue from men's basketball. However, players like Durant and Giannis who seem to be the prototypes for modern basketball players aren't small by any standard. The key is being multi-skilled and having the athletic ability to function in a lot of different ways. The same is true with New York's actively switching defense. They need people who are mobile and can react quickly. Usually, mobility is found in small to medium-sized players, but there's no reason to turn it down if you find these qualities in someone taller.
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myrtle
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| Posted: 09/28/21 3:22 pm ::: |
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| no matter how mobile/athletic you are, if you are giving up 6 - 10 " on who you are trying to guard, it's not a good look.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 09/28/21 3:39 pm ::: |
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| Agreed. The idea is to cut down the difference without losing quickness.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 09/28/21 4:00 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
Trading Onyenwere is an interesting idea but for what? (TBH I would rather just keep Onyenwere I think there is a lot of potential, even though I agree with the current high value and minutes blockage that exists if we bring in a better PF or move Howard to the PF spot, OTOH I don't think Onyenwere is a clear starter yet anyway so having her on the bench isn't really that problematic yet).
Vadeeva is interesting but not sure how she feels about the W in general and why if she wanted to return she wouldn't first go back to LA, but would certainly be a good pick up.
IMO our most valuable trade asset is the #5 pick. |
We can't develop everyone. There aren't enough minutes to go around. Remember, management kept Willoughby on the roster all season knowing she couldn't play at all. They must really like her. So, there is no way you can have Laney and Whitcomb starting while also developing Willoughby, Onyenwere, Jones, and Didi -- not to mention Durr who is floating around as the ghost of drafts past.
I don't mind trading the #5 pick for the right player. However, I do think Onyenwere has trade value. She had a lot of good games early, and I'm sure people realize that part of her decline is due to Michaela playing out of position. Opposing coaches adjusted and found a way to exploit the mismatch. Making Onyenwere guard people like Jonquel Jones and A'ja Wilson is a heavy burden. On the offensive end, Michaela came out of college as a slasher but with NY she spends a lot of time as a spot-up 3pt shooter. So, on both ends she was being asked to do things that probably no other coach would ask her to do. Unfortunately, the one crazy person who thought it was a good idea is her actual coach.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 09/28/21 5:32 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
We can't develop everyone. There aren't enough minutes to go around.
So, on both ends she was being asked to do things that probably no other coach would ask her to do. Unfortunately, the one crazy person who thought it was a good idea is her actual coach. |
The first point of yours that I've included here is extremely important. We haven't discussed this enough. This is partly why I'm dubious about Jones, Odom, and Shook. They've already had two seasons in New York. Should any of them get a third season to take up limited development time? Assuming that Laney, Howard, Ionescu, and Whitcomb are all back... that there's at least one more experienced post player... that Willoughby is back... that Allen may be back... that Richards is back... how much playing time, how much development time, is left for anyone else?
Regarding Michaela Onyenwere, I laughed out loud at the last sentence of yours above.
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undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
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| Posted: 09/28/21 6:00 pm ::: |
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[quote="root_thing"]
| J-Spoon wrote: |
| Unfortunately, the one crazy person who thought it was a good idea is her actual coach. |
Unfortunately, or fortunately? It's all but certain she will be taking home ROY once it's announced.
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Bob Lamm
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 09/29/21 9:46 am ::: |
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| undersized_post wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| Unfortunately, the one crazy person who thought it was a good idea is her actual coach. |
Unfortunately, or fortunately? It's all but certain she will be taking home ROY once it's announced. |
I suppose that's true on some level. Hopkins's choice to use oddball systems combined with a lot of people gettng injured or stuck overseas gave Onyenwere a chance to start. To her credit, she was able to put up some good games early on and showcase her talent. However, as the season went along, Michaela also got embarrassed a lot by the mismatches. Playing power forward is clearly not where she's going to succeed in this league.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 09/29/21 10:07 am ::: |
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Here's a thought. A lot of people have suggested that the Liberty get rid of all the non-Sabrina rookies from 2020. Now remember, we supposedly suffered through that 2-20 season because it was a development year. So, who did we develop?
Veterans: Nurse, Zahui, Stokes, Clarendon -- gone
Injury/Covid replacement: Kea - gone
Non-Sabrina rookies already gone: Walker, Holmes
Remaining non-Sabrina rookies: Willoughby, Jones, Shook, Odom -- gone if fans get their wish
That leaves just Sabrina, who played only 2.5 games. So, under that scenario, who did we develop in 2020? The answer is no one. Zero. Zilch. For all practical purposes, NY will have 100% turnover by 2022.
That said, I personally think Willoughby, Jones, and Shook will still be here.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 09/29/21 2:40 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
Here's a thought. A lot of people have suggested that the Liberty get rid of all the non-Sabrina rookies from 2020.
That said, I personally think Willoughby, Jones, and Shook will still be here. |
I believe I've been the most consistent and vocal in my lack of enthusiasm for most of the six non-Sabrina rookies from 2020. But please note that I've excluded Willoughby. I both hope and believe that she'll on our team's 2022 roster. I'm eager to see what apparently she showed in this year's training camp.
I don't believe that Jones or Shook will become valuable WNBA players. You certainly could be right that both will be on New York's roster next season. They just won't have my meaningless vote. But I hope they do wonderfully for the Liberty or somewhere else.
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J-Spoon
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| Posted: 09/29/21 4:12 pm ::: |
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I agree with both of you
Clearly the current management has been more committed to the 2020 rookies than the previous mid-level vets
OTOH the jump from the 2 wins in 2020 to the 12 wins in 2021 can clearly be laid at the feet of the new additions (Laney, Whitcomb, Howard, Allen who did not play in 2020, the return of Ionescu, and 21 draftee Onyenwere who got more minutes than the 2020 rookies not named Ionescu and Richards who played in more games and seem to be on the floor at more crucial times than the same 2020 rookies). So at this point it seems like the 2020 rookies (excluding Willoughby) will be competing with Durr and Johannes returning if healthy or available and unknown new options.
TBH IMO it is easier to see a path where all 2020 rookies are gone besides Ionescu and Willoughby
Ionescu/Johannes
Whitcomb/Durr/Richards
Laney/Onyenwere
Howard/Allen/Willoughby
free agent post/#5 draft pick
to one where a majority of the 2020 rookies are still on the roster in 2020
Ionescu/Jones
Whitcomb/Durr/Richards
Laney/Willoughby
Allen/Onyenwere/pick #5
Howard/Shook
OK I can see both paths pretty evenly but I think the top team would be better
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Bob Lamm
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Queenie
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| Posted: 09/29/21 10:02 pm ::: |
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| Because this season just needed to give us one more kick in the ass on the way out: Michaela Onyenwere tore ligaments in her finger at the Liberty's final practice of the season and will require surgery, as per her Spanish team.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 10/07/21 8:07 pm ::: |
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We are getting closer to answers regarding questions I've wondered about for quite a while. Especially involving our team's owners, Joe Tsai and Clara Wu Tsai.
They've given the impression of being active owners who genuinely care about the Liberty. They've promoted and backed someone widely viewed as an excellent Chief Executive Officer, Keia Clarke. They've clearly gone along with the community and political initiatives of Liberty and other WNBA players. But how active and involved will they be regarding the team's general managers and coaches?
Will the Tsais decide to bring back our "boy geniuses"? Could they fire both? Could they bring back Jonathan Kolb and empower him to decide about Walt? Could they bring back Kolb but tell him Walt has to go? The most likely scenario, in my view, is that the Tsais bring back both of them. But another disappointing season would be the end for Kolb and Hopkins. Perhaps even a mediocre season won't save their jobs.
Assuming that the Tsais bring back Kolb, he has to decide: am I ready to risk everything for a season #3 with Walt or get a new coach?
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Lib Fan
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| Posted: 10/07/21 10:25 pm ::: |
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| Its my opinion , that they both will be back for 2022
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root_thing
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| Posted: 10/07/21 11:59 pm ::: |
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The Sales Department has been an unmitigated disaster. First, you had the COVID reseating where center court STHs were reassigned to the ends and corners of the arena if your group was "too small." In our case, that was 3 people. Supposedly this had to do with COVID social distancing, but there were so many empty seats when the season began that it would have made no difference. Nonetheless, we agreed to add a ticket to meet their rules. Then, they told us we couldn't have 1 ticket on one account and 3 tickets on another. It had to be 2+2. Apparently, 1+3 does not equal 4 but 2+2 does. So, I paid for the extra ticket, my friend reimbursed me, and I had to transfer the ticket to him before every home game.
On opening day, large numbers of fans couldn't access their electronic tickets. We had to show up at the box office early and hope someone could help us. At the end of the season, it took 12 days for the Sales Department to respond when we tried to renew our tickets. This was after 3 phone calls, 3 emails, and a personal visit at Barclays. Currently, we have the glitchy transition from Ticketmaster to Seatgeek going on. You can't use your account until you verify your email. The problem is they don't tell you how. Most sites send you an email with a link. Not Seatgeek. No email, just a message telling you to verify your email without instructions. I finally had to use the search box and ask the site how to verify my email. That took me to clear instructions that should have been linked in the first place. If the Liberty want to get their fan base back up to the old 10,000 level from the current 2,000-3000, then things need to change drastically. Right now, they're doing a great job of trying to drive people away.
Obviously, Keia Clarke does not run the Sales Department directly. However, she is head of the organization and ultimately responsible. As far as I'm concerned, Clarke doesn't get a pass any more than Kolb or Hopkins do.
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DFWub2018
Joined: 24 Aug 2018
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| Posted: 10/08/21 7:47 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
The Sales Department has been an unmitigated disaster. First, you had the COVID reseating where center court STHs were reassigned to the ends and corners of the arena if your group was "too small." In our case, that was 3 people. Supposedly this had to do with COVID social distancing, but there were so many empty seats when the season began that it would have made no difference. Nonetheless, we agreed to add a ticket to meet their rules. Then, they told us we couldn't have 1 ticket on one account and 3 tickets on another. It had to be 2+2. Apparently, 1+3 does not equal 4 but 2+2 does. So, I paid for the extra ticket, my friend reimbursed me, and I had to transfer the ticket to him before every home game.
On opening day, large numbers of fans couldn't access their electronic tickets. We had to show up at the box office early and hope someone could help us. At the end of the season, it took 12 days for the Sales Department to respond when we tried to renew our tickets. This was after 3 phone calls, 3 emails, and a personal visit at Barclays. Currently, we have the glitchy transition from Ticketmaster to Seatgeek going on. You can't use your account until you verify your email. The problem is they don't tell you how. Most sites send you an email with a link. Not Seatgeek. No email, just a message telling you to verify your email without instructions. I finally had to use the search box and ask the site how to verify my email. That took me to clear instructions that should have been linked in the first place. If the Liberty want to get their fan base back up to the old 10,000 level from the current 2,000-3000, then things need to change drastically. Right now, they're doing a great job of trying to drive people away.
Obviously, Keia Clarke does not run the Sales Department directly. However, she is head of the organization and ultimately responsible. As far as I'm concerned, Clarke doesn't get a pass any more than Kolb or Hopkins do. |
WOW....I can certainly feel your frustration! People can say alot of things about the issues we have in Dallas with the Wings but that's not one of them.
I have been a STH since they arrived in 2016 and I have never had ANY issues relating to your comments nor am I aware of anyone else that has either but hopefully they get things straitened out for you guys soon because the last thing the league needs is for fans to stop supporting it for reasons that can be fixed!
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 10/08/21 10:00 am ::: |
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My sense is that Kolb's job should be more secure than Hopkins'. How much criticism has Kolb been subjected to for drafts, trades and other things GM's do? I don't recall, but it doesn't seem to have been at the same level as the Hopkins criticism.
Like Sugar Ray Leonard, the Lib made a decent flurry in the last 30 seconds of the last round, which impresses judges, so I'd guess Hopkins will be back and Kolb a fortiori. |
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 10/08/21 12:10 pm ::: |
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I regret my failure to qualify what I wrote above about Keia Clarke, especially since I'd read disturbing posts from root_thing and others about terrible experiences they've had this year with the Liberty's sales staff. root_thing is correct that as Chief Executive Officer Ms. Clarke bears some responsibility for this fiasco.
I'm sorry I repeated praise for her without addressing this. And I'm sorry for what he and apparently others have been going through regarding subscriptions and tickets.
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Last edited by Bob Lamm on 10/08/21 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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