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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/31/15 12:23 am ::: |
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norwester wrote: |
I've seen when assigning a gender makes it easier, but the gender is non-specific some authors making a conscious choice to use "she" as the representative for all humanity, or the example subject in an experiment, etc. versus the heretofore accepted "he". |
I've been doing that for at least thirty years.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004 Posts: 11050 Location: Lost in D.C.
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Posted: 08/31/15 7:00 am ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
beknighted wrote: |
For the record, I write a lot for work and never - and I mean that literally - have needed to resort to plural pronouns to avoid specifying a gender when I'm not writing about a specific gender. If you do it often enough, you learn not to be clunky about it. It's not that hard. |
There are times when pronouns are inescapable in writing. Using plural forms is much, much preferred in academic papers to constantly using "he or she, he/she" or some form thereof. Some people try to alternate he and she, but that just gets to be too awkward and is ultimately pointless. Otherwise it is constantly using proper names or descriptive titles, and that can make the writing dry as can be. |
I have to say that I haven't found that pronouns are inescapable.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/31/15 11:37 am ::: |
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Some Tennessee legislators were are not amused:
"State Rep. Bill Dunn, R-Knoxville, said he thought the suggestion was a joke.
"And then I found out it was true, at which point I thought, Are we really paying somebody to come up with this stuff?' " he said.
Dunn, a graduate of UT, said he would rather see public money spent on other academic areas such as math or technology. The Pride Center is fiscally supported by the state school.
"I just think that when people pay their taxes, they would rather have it go to a university so that people can learn something," Dunn said Friday. "Not be brainwashed into some gobbledygook."
State Sen. Frank Niceley, R-Strawberry Plains, posted on Facebook: "It seems to me the biggest lack of diversity we have at the University of Tennessee is people of common sense. Apparently, this is what happens when the decision is made that no one from Tennessee is smart enough to run our university."
In a phone interview with the News Sentinel, Niceley said, "Maybe we ought to go back to thee' and thou' for everybody and that'll take care of it."
State Sen. Paul Bailey, R-Sparta, wrote on Facebook: "First it was eliminating the Lady Vols. Now this? I doubt if parents spending over $15,000 a year expect this kind of nonsense education from the University of Tennessee. My advice would be find something better and more productive to do."
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 21046
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Posted: 08/31/15 11:42 am ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
Some Tennessee legislators were are not amused:
"State Rep. Bill Dunn, R-Knoxville, said he thought the suggestion was a joke.
"And then I found out it was true, at which point I thought, Are we really paying somebody to come up with this stuff?' " he said.
Dunn, a graduate of UT, said he would rather see public money spent on other academic areas such as math or technology. The Pride Center is fiscally supported by the state school.
"I just think that when people pay their taxes, they would rather have it go to a university so that people can learn something," Dunn said Friday. "Not be brainwashed into some gobbledygook."
State Sen. Frank Niceley, R-Strawberry Plains, posted on Facebook: "It seems to me the biggest lack of diversity we have at the University of Tennessee is people of common sense. Apparently, this is what happens when the decision is made that no one from Tennessee is smart enough to run our university."
In a phone interview with the News Sentinel, Niceley said, "Maybe we ought to go back to thee' and thou' for everybody and that'll take care of it."
State Sen. Paul Bailey, R-Sparta, wrote on Facebook: "First it was eliminating the Lady Vols. Now this? I doubt if parents spending over $15,000 a year expect this kind of nonsense education from the University of Tennessee. My advice would be find something better and more productive to do." |
I agree with all of these Republicans._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/31/15 12:36 pm ::: |
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jammerbirdi wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
Some Tennessee legislators were are not amused:
"State Rep. Bill Dunn, R-Knoxville, said he thought the suggestion was a joke.
"And then I found out it was true, at which point I thought, Are we really paying somebody to come up with this stuff?' " he said.
Dunn, a graduate of UT, said he would rather see public money spent on other academic areas such as math or technology. The Pride Center is fiscally supported by the state school.
"I just think that when people pay their taxes, they would rather have it go to a university so that people can learn something," Dunn said Friday. "Not be brainwashed into some gobbledygook."
State Sen. Frank Niceley, R-Strawberry Plains, posted on Facebook: "It seems to me the biggest lack of diversity we have at the University of Tennessee is people of common sense. Apparently, this is what happens when the decision is made that no one from Tennessee is smart enough to run our university."
In a phone interview with the News Sentinel, Niceley said, "Maybe we ought to go back to thee' and thou' for everybody and that'll take care of it."
State Sen. Paul Bailey, R-Sparta, wrote on Facebook: "First it was eliminating the Lady Vols. Now this? I doubt if parents spending over $15,000 a year expect this kind of nonsense education from the University of Tennessee. My advice would be find something better and more productive to do." |
I agree with all of these Republicans. |
I saw one Tweet regarding the Tenn pronouns that I thought was pretty astute:
"This is why Trump is winning and will continue to win"
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 21046
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Posted: 08/31/15 12:48 pm ::: |
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Exactly. People have had enough. Hello backlash. Disco sucks x a thousand. Better start hoping Donald Trump is at heart a benevolent man who really wants to make America great again because if he's not for the next five years he's going to make Nixon look like Abe Lincoln._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 6375 Location: Seattle
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Posted: 08/31/15 1:28 pm ::: |
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The Pride Center or whatever is a good thing. The fact that they came up with a policy that doesn't make total sense doesn't negate the importance of having these resources on college campuses. Particularly in light of the serious risks for suicide, depression, being victimized by bullying, assault and rape that gay/other/queer/LGBTQIA, etc. students experience.
I'm just saying, the amount of resources going to this center are important. Tax dollars or what have you. And in the scheme of things, the amount of time that went into this policy is probably a fraction of whatever that director does each day/week/month. The work, the support, they are important for a vulnerable population of students.
I mean, maybe I just see a lot of that because my sister-in-law is the "head gay" at a major metropolitan US university, and I glean some of these things from her. She works hard. The needs of "her students" are many. And in that context, any backlash against the Pride Center as a result of a policy like this is unwarranted.
Which means it will undoubtedly be mighty.
_________________ Don't you know the plural of "anecdote" is "data"?
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16385 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 08/31/15 1:39 pm ::: |
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Some people need to learn to read.
This is not a policy and it doesn't require anything. It a 400-word piece on a website with some suggestions that might make some students feel more comfortable, by the person whose job it is to advocate for those students. It may seems sort of silly, but there is no requirement whatsoever. I bet very people even at the university had even seen this before the media started talking about it.
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A statement from a university spokesman said: 'We would like to offer clarification of the statements that have been made referring to gender-neutral language.
'There is no mandate or official policy to use the language. The information provided in our Office of Diversity and Inclusion newsletter was offered as a resource to our campus community on inclusive practices.
'We recognize that most people prefer to use the pronouns he and she; we do not dictate speech.
'We do strive to be a diverse and inclusive campus and to ensure that everyone feels welcome, accepted, and respected.' |
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 5419 Location: Fayetteville
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Posted: 08/31/15 11:52 pm ::: |
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@Jammer and @Pilight
So is it you all's contention that everyone should have the right to say what they want, when they want, how they want, no matter what?
If not, then when are times they can't? What would be unacceptable but not under the political correctness label?
If everyone should have that type of rights, why do we have rules on Rebkell about what posters can post and how they interact with other posters?
If its not political correctness (or just good manners), what would you call it?
Would the terminology be more palatable if it were "common courtesy"/"common decency"/"good manners" rather than "political correctness"?
In my life experience, its been a lot easier not to be offended by things that don't relate to me personally. But I was/am empathetic enough to learn when I do find it is offensive to others. To ignore it after learning would be insensitive, would it not? Hell, I don't even tell blond jokes anymore. |
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15759 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 09/01/15 12:04 am ::: |
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I dunno....call me Old Fashioned but, REALLY? If pronouns are The Biggest Challenge in your life, then....you're already in a kind of trouble that pronoun modification isn't gonna help much. And if someone's (mis-)usage of a pronoun can even set you back some, you might wanna re-evaluate what it is to be human.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 21046
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Posted: 09/01/15 1:44 am ::: |
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hyperetic wrote: |
@Jammer and @Pilight
So is it you all's contention that everyone should have the right to say what they want, when they want, how they want, no matter what?
If not, then when are times they can't? What would be unacceptable but not under the political correctness label?
If everyone should have that type of rights, why do we have rules on Rebkell about what posters can post and how they interact with other posters?
If its not political correctness (or just good manners), what would you call it?
Would the terminology be more palatable if it were "common courtesy"/"common decency"/"good manners" rather than "political correctness"?
In my life experience, its been a lot easier not to be offended by things that don't relate to me personally. But I was/am empathetic enough to learn when I do find it is offensive to others. To ignore it after learning would be insensitive, would it not? Hell, I don't even tell blond jokes anymore. |
Aw come on. One blonde joke for old time's sake._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67129 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/01/15 7:28 am ::: |
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hyperetic wrote: |
@Jammer and @Pilight
So is it you all's contention that everyone should have the right to say what they want, when they want, how they want, no matter what? |
The legal right? Yes, absolutely.
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If everyone should have that type of rights, why do we have rules on Rebkell about what posters can post and how they interact with other posters? |
There are rules? Since when?
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If its not political correctness (or just good manners), what would you call it?
Would the terminology be more palatable if it were "common courtesy"/"common decency"/"good manners" rather than "political correctness"? |
Not everyone agrees on what constitutes "common decency" or "good manners". That's why they used a separate term, "political correctness", to begin with. It is a way of side stepping the debate on what constitutes "common decency".
_________________ I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 09/01/15 9:14 am ::: |
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does this qualify as PC bs?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/01/world/auschwitz-holocaust-showers/
Offended Jewish visitors over the weekend likened the misting stations to the "showers" used to exterminate members of their faith at the camp during World War II, Israeli media reported.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 09/01/15 10:09 am ::: |
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I would say no. Putting showers in an old extermination camp seems like something not well thought out. I've visted one, and it leaves you emotionally raw. It does not seem far fetched that something like this would be a serious trigger. And when you have the history that these camps have, the onus is on you to be sensitive to the feelings of others--even if it means walking on eggshells.
_________________ ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 6375 Location: Seattle
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Posted: 09/01/15 10:19 am ::: |
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hyperetic wrote: |
To ignore it after learning would be insensitive, would it not? Hell, I don't even tell blond jokes anymore. |
Thank you, hyperetic! I don't get offended by them because I'm blonde, but because the blonde in question is always a woman. The misogyny inherent (even if the speaker doesn't intend it) grates. Stupid women.
I do have a friend who has a giant collection of jokes and humorous anecdotes in his head. He'll haul out a blond joke once in a while, but notice the spelling? He always substitutes a blond dude for the subject. I just shake my head. I guess that's my point, right? He's a card.
I can't deny the humor in the misunderstandings that humans make, and how the more clever ones point out the ridiculousness inherent in everyday life, but it long ago became unacceptable to tell "Pollock" jokes and such as the "dumb population, but since poor white males are your roots, jammer, would "hillbilly" jokes be funnier? (for an example; certainly not to pick on you ).
_________________ Don't you know the plural of "anecdote" is "data"?
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 09/01/15 10:20 am ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
I would say no. Putting showers in an old extermination camp seems like something not well thought out. I've visted one, and it leaves you emotionally raw. It does not seem far fetched that something like this would be a serious trigger. And when you have the history that these camps have, the onus is on you to be sensitive to the feelings of others--even if it means walking on eggshells. |
The picture shows a mister outside, set-up like any other mister, outside the entrance.
Temps were 100+ degrees F.
Better to allow the chance a patron suffers heatstroke than a sensitive person become upset?
That's PC bs, imo.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 09/01/15 10:35 am ::: |
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cthskzfn wrote: |
justintyme wrote: |
I would say no. Putting showers in an old extermination camp seems like something not well thought out. I've visted one, and it leaves you emotionally raw. It does not seem far fetched that something like this would be a serious trigger. And when you have the history that these camps have, the onus is on you to be sensitive to the feelings of others--even if it means walking on eggshells. |
The picture shows a mister outside, set-up like any other mister, outside the entrance.
Temps were 100+ degrees F.
Better to allow the chance a patron suffers heatstroke than a sensitive person become upset?
That's PC bs, imo. |
While I have no doubt it was well intentioned, when you are the most notorious of all extermination camps, you lose the "right" to question the feelings of the group you exterminated.
Have you ever visited one of these camps? I spent my entire time there with tears in my eyes. And I am not a crier at all. I watched multiple people break down completely. It is by far the most emotionally draining experience I have ever had in my life. In that context it doesn't seem at all unreasonable that Jewish people were bothered by the misters. It really would not take much to push someone over the edge in that place.
_________________ ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 21046
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Posted: 09/01/15 2:32 pm ::: |
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well my monstrously fast cable modem Internet is today just, I don't know. Monstrous. So I'm reduced and defeated down to iPhone and cell service.
First. If those camps aren't physically and administratively completely under the control of the Jewish people then I don't even know what to say about that. I would have assumed they were had I ever thought about it. Perhaps their participation and consultation in all matters relating to the camps has been to a degree that the presentation of the history and really every last detail are and have been completely sensitive to the perspective of the Jewish people.
So I don't know what's going on there with that situation. Turn the camps over to the Jewish people entirely. How that wouldn't have happened decades ago is frankly, to me, shocking.
As far as blonde/blond jokes... blonde jokes are funnier. But seriously. I thought blondes were the dumb blonde joke. Okay now I'm really being serious. I can't recall any actual dumb blonde jokes and I find the whole idea that hair color being attached to a dumb person could ever be taken seriously enough to hurt somebody's widdle feewins kind of just ... I don't know... dumb.
I'm sorry... there's an evil in me today.
but.. When you place it all into the unfunny context that blonde and blue eyed babies are really considered the gold standard top of the human class gene pool... is this really an issue?
And as far as gender specific attacks on intelligence, how about dumb lug, big ape, etc.
Look let's take men for a second. Some men can cut into a living human brain and remove disease. Some men are dumb lugs. It's reality and people will make jokes about it.
Likewise, some women can cut into a living human brain and remove disease. Just not the blonde ones.
But then again, I'm half a Pollack. Which means I'm not really sure how to spell Pollack and that even though my father's family is Polish and I'm half, I remember buying a book of Dumb Pollack jokes at Spencer's Gifts, I think, when I was a kid.
As far as Rebkell's goes, with a great respect for the pre-PC definition of free speech, which is to say, free speech that could get you into trouble and lose you friends (LIKE THIS POST!!!) we just try to allow for an environment where people can voice opinions without being verbally (well, in writing) abused or attacked. Which is something, that if not checked and stopped at every instance, very very quickly spreads and becomes the new lower standard of treatment and behavior and respect and then becomes a mother bear to deal with.
And if you don't deal with it, you don't have Rebkell's and the quality of people and conversation that visit here.
norwester, my mom was blonde my entire life. she only had a first grade education left school to pick cotton for 50 cents a day, and as a blonde she became the owner of three beauty shops, a health inspector for the state of Pennsylvania, and a founder and first president of the Democratic Women of Beaver County. I never got the whole dumb blonde thing. Hard to take jokes seriously when you've grown up in an environment and time when a joke was a joke and you made them about your own kind._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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scullyfu
Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 8869 Location: Niagara Falls
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 21046
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Posted: 09/01/15 3:50 pm ::: |
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Thank you, Scully. That's very sweet. She was a firecracker._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 6375 Location: Seattle
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 09/01/15 5:48 pm ::: |
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norwester wrote: |
Yeah. Your mom sounds great!
My feelings don't get hurt when I hear a blonde joke. I know I'm not dumb. If others seem to think so, then that's their mistake.
It's more the overall cultural insensitivity. Why is it only a dumb blonde woman? Why is that the stereotype? Individual men being called dumb lugs, big hairy apes, etc. That's some men. And even they may be good for something. Versus all blondes. Who besides appearance are no more useful than a blow-up doll. That's the hidden subtext. Do you see the distinction? (read in Alicia Silverstone-as-Cher voice).
Generally if a woman performs a certain way: all women are __________. If a man does, that man is ________. I didn't make the rules. But I try to point them out to those who don't live that reality.
I've told plenty of blonde jokes in my time. But I don't anymore because when I grew up, I realized the misogyny inherent in it. That's all. Maybe my cringe when I hear them is more embarrassment that the teller hasn't also grown up?
I do want to point out one thing additional I thought about the above, you can describe some men a certain way, but for instance, if you described a black man that way, you'd probably be called a racist. It becomes picking on and stereotyping a marginalize population. Interesting. |
Indeed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbmbMSrsZVQ
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 19832
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Posted: 09/01/15 5:49 pm ::: |
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norwester wrote: |
Yeah. Your mom sounds great!
My feelings don't get hurt when I hear a blonde joke. I know I'm not dumb. If others seem to think so, then that's their mistake.
It's more the overall cultural insensitivity. Why is it only a dumb blonde woman? Why is that the stereotype? Individual men being called dumb lugs, big hairy apes, etc. That's some men. And even they may be good for something. Versus all blondes. Who besides appearance are no more useful than a blow-up doll. That's the hidden subtext. Do you see the distinction? (read in Alicia Silverstone-as-Cher voice).
Generally if a woman performs a certain way: all women are __________. If a man does, that man is ________. I didn't make the rules. But I try to point them out to those who don't live that reality.
I've told plenty of blonde jokes in my time. But I don't anymore because when I grew up, I realized the misogyny inherent in it. That's all. Maybe my cringe when I hear them is more embarrassment that the teller hasn't also grown up?
I do want to point out one thing additional I thought about the above, you can describe some men a certain way, but for instance, if you described a black man that way, you'd probably be called a racist. It becomes picking on and stereotyping a marginalize population. Interesting. |
I think that's how it works for all people in oppressed situations. One gay person represents all gays, one Black person represents all black people..
And personally, I think people definitely instinctively think you are a dumber when you are blonde. Just from my experience of going from blonde to redhead to back to blonde.. It's all right though, I don't mind the extra help in home depot sometimes.
_________________ “Anyone point out that a Donald Trump anagram is ‘Lord Dampnut’”- Colin Mochrie
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 21046
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Posted: 09/01/15 6:15 pm ::: |
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I really meant to type Polack. Ah the best laid plans..._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 6375 Location: Seattle
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