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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 05/15/22 7:05 am ::: |
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Having just watched Han’s minutes in the Chicago game, there’s a play where Han is switched to Evans. Han’s original guard was covered. Han tried to go back to her man while Evans had the ball and Evans just hit a 3.
So maybe the execution thing that Root mentioned is the thing, bc those things don’t normally happen on defense.
But my point all along hasn’t been to bash Han or Sandy. And I do think at some point Han has to get playing time to help the learning experience. My point is that our post bench productivity is nonexistent and we’re a team that’s starting a borderline starter in the post to begin with. My frustration is with Kolb and how the roster is put together. You told us you were making changes to advance the team. Last year’s team was decimated by injuries. This year’s team is in relative terms fairly healthy. Sabrina and Howard both are, unless something’s up with Howard that we don’t know. Laney is healthy enough to play with no minutes restriction. Willoughby is healthy. From what I see, I think this team is worse than last year’s. It might wind up with a better record than last year’s team for health reasons. But I don’t think it’s a better team. At least not measurably so. Which was supposed to be the purpose of all the change.
On the positive side, Laney is shooting .345 and Howard is shooting .238. Those numbers will obviously go up. So the record is partially indicative of those outliers. But the team is 11th in defense rating and their rebounding differential is awful. Maybe the defense will get better with more familiarity with the staff and each other. But the rebounding is definitely a source of concern. For that to improve, Sabrina, Laney and Sami have to hit the defensive boards harder. A challenging task if they’re also looking to push pace. Last year the Libs ranked second in pace. This year they’re tenth.
In terms of rebounds and rebounds yielded, they rank 12th in both categories. I’m not sure I can find compelling reasons to expect anything beyond modest improvement there.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 05/15/22 10:09 am ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
root_thing wrote: |
Luuuc wrote: |
(and FWIW, if it's a 20 point blowout then maybe as a coach I'll compromise my normal principles to give a player token minutes on AAPI night or whatever other theme night, but I think it's stretch to include that in the rationale for playing Han in a game of OT closeness. It's a slippery slope to introduce non-basketball reasons for determining the playing rotation even if well-intentioned.) |
It didn't look like an overtime game until the very end. |
My point wasn't that we knew it was going to OT, it was just that at no point was the result beyond doubt, so all decisions could have impacted whether the team ultimately won or lost.
In that situation the coach is likely operating in their default mindset of "Will this next move likely help or hurt our chances of winning?", so they could conceivably lose track of other factors that aren't typically part of their decision-making process.
Or to put it more cartoonishly, if I'm a head coach and I inadvertently become too focused on winning, I would expect the social media intern to tap me on the shoulder mid-game to remind me who I need to sub in to ensure that I am not accused of exploiting the race of one of my players in a bait-and-switch scheme to sell more tickets. That type of staff support is the least I would expect from a professional organisation
Btw, during the game I posted
Luuuc wrote: |
Queenie wrote: |
just put Han in the game, what's the worst that could happen |
I agree. |
... because I agreed it was worth trying - on its own purely-basketball-related merit.
AD was given a few minutes. Why not give Han a similar opportunity. You never know what could spark some energy and a momentum shift. It can happen in a hurry - especially in front of a home crowd. |
I never suggested that promotional needs were the ONLY reason to put Han in the game. Those factors should not be isolated from each other. Nor did I imply that they were of equal importance to basketball decisions. Notice that I showed the marketing considerations last (7th and 8th) on my list. However, this is still a business. No paying customers means no jobs for anyone -- including the coaches and players. So yes, the coach is at least a little bit invested in fan happiness. The point of my original post was that every imaginable factor pointed toward using Han on that night whether you consider them major, minor, or irrelevant.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 05/15/22 10:29 am ::: |
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They gave out Han posters. You have people who might be there specifically for the night itself, and to see Han. I’m not sold that there’s sound basketball reasons not to play Han to begin with, so I think it’s really bad form not to have played her on what that night meant.
Observing her actual playing time, I’d say she made two errors in judgement in terms of who to cover and when. If that’s the issue, it strikes me as fixable. Han is too skilled not to devote time to developing her properly. And I think to some extent you have to experience mistakes in live play to fully learn from them.
That’s on the coaching in part, in my opinion. I can’t say I know what they are doing with her. But I think that what I saw are not complicated fixes. So, what’s happening?
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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DTP
Joined: 24 Dec 2005 Posts: 6439 Location: Ohio
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Posted: 05/15/22 3:08 pm ::: |
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Its a little concerning to me that in year 3 Sabrina seems to still look very uncomfortable being pressured on the offensive end. She often picks up her dribble far too early, hasn't consistently shown great speed or ability to beat her defender off the dribble and get to the rim, and in these last two games has screwed up at least 3 really easy passes to bigs that were rolling to the rim alone. She's a really good shooter so she'll put up numbers some games but she's not going to get to that next level until she improves her handle and gets stronger with the basketball.
They are getting absolutely nothing from their starting center outside of setting good screens which has led to some easy baskets rolling to the rim. If she's going to be this bad, why not try going smaller with Howard at center? Don't say lack of rebounding- Dolson has more fouls than rebounds at this point.
And if AD can't get minutes and contribute with no Allen & Didi, that roster spot may be better for an actual backup point guard. Dangerfield would be a much better contributor for them at this point.
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 4076
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Posted: 05/15/22 3:56 pm ::: |
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DTP wrote: |
Its a little concerning to me that in year 3 Sabrina seems to still look very uncomfortable being pressured on the offensive end. She often picks up her dribble far too early, hasn't consistently shown great speed or ability to beat her defender off the dribble and get to the rim, and in these last two games has screwed up at least 3 really easy passes to bigs that were rolling to the rim alone. She's a really good shooter so she'll put up numbers some games but she's not going to get to that next level until she improves her handle and gets stronger with the basketball.
They are getting absolutely nothing from their starting center outside of setting good screens which has led to some easy baskets rolling to the rim. If she's going to be this bad, why not try going smaller with Howard at center? Don't say lack of rebounding- Dolson has more fouls than rebounds at this point.
And if AD can't get minutes and contribute with no Allen & Didi, that roster spot may be better for an actual backup point guard. Dangerfield would be a much better contributor for them at this point. |
Dolson comes with attitude and great effort, but has always been a foul magnet (although she didn't get called for many fouls in college). Many Sky fans were happy to have her move on.
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LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 895 Location: NY
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Posted: 05/15/22 5:04 pm ::: |
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DTP wrote: |
Its a little concerning to me that in year 3 Sabrina seems to still look very uncomfortable being pressured on the offensive end. She often picks up her dribble far too early, hasn't consistently shown great speed or ability to beat her defender off the dribble and get to the rim, and in these last two games has screwed up at least 3 really easy passes to bigs that were rolling to the rim alone. She's a really good shooter so she'll put up numbers some games but she's not going to get to that next level until she improves her handle and gets stronger with the basketball.
They are getting absolutely nothing from their starting center outside of setting good screens which has led to some easy baskets rolling to the rim. If she's going to be this bad, why not try going smaller with Howard at center? Don't say lack of rebounding- Dolson has more fouls than rebounds at this point.
And if AD can't get minutes and contribute with no Allen & Didi, that roster spot may be better for an actual backup point guard. Dangerfield would be a much better contributor for them at this point. |
That part bolded I've been saying this from the beginning of the season. I guess Kolb and liberty management want to see if AD aka Asia Durr does something but all I see is a bust.
Sabrina Ionescu is the least of my worries on this team, she's a keeper. Need better players around her
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 05/15/22 5:48 pm ::: |
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I think they're giving AD a free ride because of all she's been thru. And really I don't have a problem with that. Next year will be another story.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 05/15/22 6:06 pm ::: |
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myrtle wrote: |
I think they're giving AD a free ride because of all she's been thru. And really I don't have a problem with that. Next year will be another story. |
I agree. We're all hampered because we're not getting a long look at AD in practices. Right now I'm guessing that a crucial part of the issue is simply confidence. In three games, AD has taken ONE shot. I hope they can become more comfortable on the court and feel ready to take the ball and do something with it.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 05/15/22 6:17 pm ::: |
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Also, AD’s position is the team’s deepest. AD doesn’t really have much time and opportunity to find a rhythm. I believe her speed and explosiveness is intact. How AD feels on court is anyone’s guess and a separate matter.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 05/15/22 6:32 pm ::: |
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Four games have revealed so many problems that I'd hardly know where to begin. But I'd like to mention one that I don't believe has been addressed. In my view, New York seems challenged offensively. Getting Allen on the court will help, but I believe the Liberty needs a major, consistent offensive contribution from at least one of these three players: Jocelyn Willoughby, Michaela Onyenwere, and Didi Richards.
Richards may be questionable for quite a while with her hamstring. It'll probably have to come from Willoughby or Onyenwere. If it doesn't, that's going to make everything else much harder.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 05/15/22 6:46 pm ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
Four games have revealed so many problems that I'd hardly know where to begin. But I'd like to mention one that I don't believe has been addressed. In my view, New York seems challenged offensively. Getting Allen on the court will help, but I believe the Liberty needs a major, consistent offensive contribution from at least one of these three players: Jocelyn Willoughby, Michaela Onyenwere, and Didi Richards.
Richards may be questionable for quite a while with her hamstring. It'll probably have to come from Willoughby or Onyenwere. If it doesn't, that's going to make everything else much harder. |
A big problem for NY right now is that Sabrina, Laney and Howard get a major proportion of the team’s touches. But they’re not collectively scoring like a group that gets that many touches. I fundamentally agree with you. There needs to be more scoring from other sources, at least until Laney and Howard improve. But those players you mentioned go lengthy stretches without touching the ball.
Not making excuses but let’s hope the best is ahead in the sense that the team had a lot of people not practicing in training camp and a new coach. Maybe time will improve their chemistry and continuity.
But in the meantime, I’m concerned. With the touches Laney and Howard are getting, they need to be at an all-star level of performance. They looked better today, but they generally have not been close. Maybe time will get some of the above players more touches, but right now I’m just limited on answers.
Han gives major offense, but Julianne Viani highlighted defensive concerns for Han several times in the broadcast. Since Dolson isn’t giving much other than size, that may still be a step up. Right now the Liberty are a bad team in every area.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21990
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Posted: 05/15/22 7:22 pm ::: |
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root_thing wrote: |
I never suggested that promotional needs were the ONLY reason to put Han in the game. |
No, of course not. I didn't mean to imply that you did. Just wanted to make that clear before letting this go. You listed a bunch of factors and I picked on only the last couple, because I got an unsettled feeling from those ones.
Which isn't to say they weren't valid considerations, but just to say that IMO they're only considerations in certain circumstances, which IMO didn't apply at that time. Everyone's mileage is allowed to vary on these things and my unqualified opinion on the matter is worth literally zero.
This latest game (which I haven't seen yet other than the boxscore) makes the Han-less Indy game all the more curious to me.
_________________ Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63967
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Posted: 05/15/22 7:42 pm ::: |
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Liberty exercised Willoughby’s 4th year option. She’s now guaranteed for next year. No hand-wringing needed.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 05/16/22 3:29 pm ::: |
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I’m fine with drafting Bueckers if she declares and signing Stewie too. We have Sabally to back up. Heck, even as a rookie who needs to learn stuff she’d be an upgrade over Dolson. I’d be comfortable starting her next year too, if Stewie is not attainable.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1901
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Posted: 05/16/22 5:14 pm ::: |
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Remember when people thought Dolson was a big free agent get? Lol
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 05/16/22 5:38 pm ::: |
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johnjohnW wrote: |
Remember when people thought Dolson was a big free agent get? Lol |
Not me. I've been against signing Dolson since the first time she became a free agent in 2020. I was in favor of trading for Hebard or signing Russell. NWF absolutely hates Dolson. He and his buddy used to loudly heckle her at Liberty home games. I had to talk him off the ledge when the Dolson reports first surfaced. So, no inconsistency here.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 05/16/22 5:46 pm ::: |
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I didn’t like the signing and said so at the time. But I was hoping that the similarities between Dolson, Cubaj and Han would result in system continuity. That part has happened. But the results have not.
Dolson’s defensive and rebounding deficiencies have also been on full display. No surprise to me or Root at all. Dolson was a signing for the sake of getting a true C. Hopefully she at least plays more to what her strengths are. We’ve seen some physical play. We’ve seen lots of fouls. We haven’t seen the outside shot or the passing to this point.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 4076
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Posted: 05/16/22 5:59 pm ::: |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
I didn’t like the signing and said so at the time. But I was hoping that the similarities between Dolson, Cubaj and Han would result in system continuity. That part has happened. But the results have not.
Dolson’s defensive and rebounding deficiencies have also been on full display. No surprise to me or Root at all. Dolson was a signing for the sake of getting a true C. Hopefully she at least plays more to what her strengths are. We’ve seen some physical play. We’ve seen lots of fouls. We haven’t seen the outside shot or the passing to this point. |
For how many years is Dolson under contract? Is her salary guaranteed?
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 05/16/22 6:20 pm ::: |
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Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
For how many years is Dolson under contract? Is her salary guaranteed? |
Two years guaranteed. As NWF said, all we can do is hope that some of the positives reappear -- namely 3pt shooting and smart post passing. Dolson is also supposed to be a really good teammate. Maybe behind the scenes, she is a positive influence on the young players.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 05/16/22 6:32 pm ::: |
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And in fairness to Dolson, Viani pointed out that she’s had very few practices with the team. She’s a player who is definitely going to be somewhat system-dependent. So maybe with time, the positives in her game will re-emerge. We can only hope.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 4076
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Posted: 05/16/22 8:45 pm ::: |
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root_thing wrote: |
Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
For how many years is Dolson under contract? Is her salary guaranteed? |
Two years guaranteed. As NWF said, all we can do is hope that some of the positives reappear -- namely 3pt shooting and smart post passing. Dolson is also supposed to be a really good teammate. Maybe behind the scenes, she is a positive influence on the young players. |
Thank you! Stef seems like the kind of person you like to have on your team. You just really don't like to face her from the other side, as she is very chippy.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7430 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: 05/16/22 10:46 pm ::: |
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Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
root_thing wrote: |
Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
For how many years is Dolson under contract? Is her salary guaranteed? |
Two years guaranteed. As NWF said, all we can do is hope that some of the positives reappear -- namely 3pt shooting and smart post passing. Dolson is also supposed to be a really good teammate. Maybe behind the scenes, she is a positive influence on the young players. |
Thank you! Stef seems like the kind of person you like to have on your team. You just really don't like to face her from the other side, as she is very chippy. |
Stef is a great BACK UP post. Any team starting her at center is not a contender. Period.
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 05/16/22 10:59 pm ::: |
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readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
Stef is a great BACK UP post. Any team starting her at center is not a contender. Period. |
I believe you've posted this twice. Who said that the Liberty (the team I root for) is a contender with Dolson as our starting center? I've seen NO ONE here, New York fan or not, say that. Indeed, most preseason projections I saw on this board or elsewhere had New York as 8th, 9th, or 10th.
I don't see the Liberty as a title contender this season whether Dolson is or isn't our starting center. I just don't see the relevance here.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21990
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Posted: 05/16/22 11:12 pm ::: |
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Dolson & Stevens pretty much split the minutes at the 5 spot 50/50 last year, and Dolson started more games than Stevens did. They were a contender if memory serves me right.
Swap Dolson for Stevens at the Liberty and are they suddenly a title contender? I doubt it. It tends to be more than one player at one position that determines a team's fortunes.
_________________ Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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