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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019 Posts: 4701
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Posted: 09/24/21 12:03 am ::: New York Liberty 2022 |
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Updated: 4-12-22
Head Coach: Sandy Brondello
GM: Jonathan Kolb
Full salary cap breakdown
Signed through 2022:
Rebecca Allen
Stefanie Dolson
Asia Durr
Natasha Howard (Protected)
Sabrina Ionescu
Paris Kea
Betnijah Laney (Protected)
Michaela Onyenwere
DiDi Richards
Kylee Shook
Sami Whitcomb (Protected)
Jocelyn Willoughby
Han Xu
Reserved/SuspCE Players:
Marine Johannès
Unsigned 2021 Draftees:
Marine Fauthoux
2022 Draft Picks:
Nyara Sabally
Lorela Cubaj
Sika Kone
Well, who should stay, who should go, and who should be brought in?
Last edited by Stormeo on 04/12/22 2:18 am; edited 4 times in total |
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LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 895 Location: NY
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Posted: 09/24/21 3:13 am ::: |
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If Austin from ole Miss falls to 5, that should be the pick. No excuses we need to go BIG this off season
Laney, Sabina, and Howard are the safe people in my book, everybody else is an option to me
I do wanna see Johannes on this team next year, she would be fun to watch playing with Laney, and Sabrina
Overall it had it's ups and downs but they were fun to watch. I enjoyed this year season thanks to Laney, Witcomb, and Sabrina who had her moments
Go Libs
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 2824 Location: New York
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Posted: 09/24/21 6:17 am ::: Re: New York Liberty 2022 |
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Stormeo wrote: |
Head Coach: Walt Hopkins
GM: Jonathan Kolb
Full salary cap breakdown
Signed through 2022:
Asia Durr
Natasha Howard (Protected)
Sabrina Ionescu
Jazmine Jones
Betnijah Laney (Protected)
Leaonna Odom
Michaela Onyenwere
DiDi Richards
Kylee Shook
Sami Whitcomb (Protected)
Jocelyn Willoughby
Han Xu
UFAs:
Rebecca Allen
Reshanda Gray
RFAs:
None
Reserved/SuspCE Players:
Marine Johannès
Unsigned 2021 Draftees:
Marine Fauthoux
2022 Draft Picks:
#5
#29
Well, who should stay, who should go, and who should be brought in? |
I'm sure I'll get accused of being a UCONN homer here, but I think the Liberty need Stefanie Dolson. She can bang down low in the post on defense and she is a great passer from the high post on offense. She can set up there and can pass to a slashing Howard or find open 3 point shooters.
I know most won't like this, but Griner, Wilson, Fowles, Cambage, Stewie, or Jonquel aren't coming to Brooklyn to live any time soon.
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Cooper2009
Joined: 04 Nov 2017 Posts: 197 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: 09/24/21 8:22 am ::: Re: New York Liberty 2022 |
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ucbart wrote: |
Stormeo wrote: |
Head Coach: Walt Hopkins
GM: Jonathan Kolb
Full salary cap breakdown
Signed through 2022:
Asia Durr
Natasha Howard (Protected)
Sabrina Ionescu
Jazmine Jones
Betnijah Laney (Protected)
Leaonna Odom
Michaela Onyenwere
DiDi Richards
Kylee Shook
Sami Whitcomb (Protected)
Jocelyn Willoughby
Han Xu
UFAs:
Rebecca Allen
Reshanda Gray
RFAs:
None
Reserved/SuspCE Players:
Marine Johannès
Unsigned 2021 Draftees:
Marine Fauthoux
2022 Draft Picks:
#5
#29
Well, who should stay, who should go, and who should be brought in? |
I'm sure I'll get accused of being a UCONN homer here, but I think the Liberty need Stefanie Dolson. She can bang down low in the post on defense and she is a great passer from the high post on offense. She can set up there and can pass to a slashing Howard or find open 3 point shooters.
I know most won't like this, but Griner, Wilson, Fowles, Cambage, Stewie, or Jonquel aren't coming to Brooklyn to live any time soon. |
No to Dolson.
_________________ Nared.
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Cooper2009
Joined: 04 Nov 2017 Posts: 197 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: 09/24/21 8:26 am ::: |
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I like the team, they just severely need a real Center/Height. Austin should be their top draft choice in case she’s there at 5. But also look closely at Cunane, Sabally, ONO, Prince, and Copeland, Staiti, and any other post that’s coming out because they’ll be better than Shook in the long run.
But 1-3 this team is solid. The 4 seems like a manageable position. The 5 is where there are issues.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18055 Location: Queens
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Posted: 09/24/21 8:43 am ::: |
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I want a center and a coach who didn't have a traumatic childhood experience with paint.
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019 Posts: 4701
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Posted: 09/24/21 10:46 am ::: |
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It'll never happen, but my final 12 for next year would be:
PG: Ionescu/Richards
SG: Whitcomb/Johannès
SF: Laney/Allen/Onyenwere
PF: Howard/Gray (or even a different free agent)
C: Free agent/#5/Shook
Kiss most of the 2020 draft class goodbye. Trying to develop them was overall a failure. Cut your losses by cutting them (or trading them, if anyone really wants 'em). At least Richards' development is going better.
They need to get away from playing so undersized. While their defense in the playoff game was better than I would've expected, it is not sustainable through the course of a full title run. This is a post-dominated League – the women's pro game is in general. The sooner this arrogant front office realizes that and stops trying to ~*revolutionize*~ the women's game by doing their own thing completely contradictory to that (male ego/entitlement perhaps, Kolb & Hop?), the sooner this team can actually begin to contend.
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Iluvacc
Joined: 11 Jun 2005 Posts: 4167
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Posted: 09/24/21 10:53 am ::: |
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Queenie wrote: |
I want a center and a coach who didn't have a traumatic childhood experience with paint. |
*Note to self* Do not piss off Queenie 🤣🤣
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16377 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 09/24/21 11:10 am ::: |
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In my mind, this team getting better is dependent on one thing: Sabrina Ionescu taking a big leap after what is basically her rookie year. If she is the player that many of us expected, NY is automatically a lot better next year.
Other things will also help, but nothing is more important than that.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6827
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Posted: 09/24/21 12:18 pm ::: |
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With the Worlds right after the WNBA season I do not think we will see the French players or Han in 22.
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Cooper2009
Joined: 04 Nov 2017 Posts: 197 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: 09/24/21 4:31 pm ::: |
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Stormeo wrote: |
It'll never happen, but my final 12 for next year would be:
PG: Ionescu/Richards
SG: Whitcomb/Johannès
SF: Laney/Allen/Onyenwere
PF: Howard/Gray (or even a different free agent)
C: Free agent/#5/Shook
Kiss most of the 2020 draft class goodbye. Trying to develop them was overall a failure. Cut your losses by cutting them (or trading them, if anyone really wants 'em). At least Richards' development is going better.
They need to get away from playing so undersized. While their defense in the playoff game was better than I would've expected, it is not sustainable through the course of a full title run. This is a post-dominated League – the women's pro game is in general. The sooner this arrogant front office realizes that and stops trying to ~*revolutionize*~ the women's game by doing their own thing completely contradictory to that (male ego/entitlement perhaps, Kolb & Hop?), the sooner this team can actually begin to contend. |
May not sound like much but:
Elizabeth Williams could be good here… and cheap if no one else is willing to pay her and maybe she can find that defense she used to be known for.
Myisha Hines-Allen. Down low beside Howard. Fits the mold of what the team is currently but a huge upgrade at the 4 which is what they need. And she’s proven.
Isabelle Harrison. Idk what it’d take to get her but she’s a good get for any team.
Tianna Hawkins - again an upgrade to what they already have down low
Monique Billings - upgrade.
The thing is the person they sign doesn’t have to come in and be an all world player. Sabrina will improve as will the chemistry with Howard who will also be better next season. Laney played extremely well for a second season. Sami was a solid piece all year. This team needs a mobile 4 with decent size who can play defense and hit the open shot when it comes their way. Sounds like a lot to ask for only because this team doesn’t have it. Howard can be the Center, she’s done it before. The entire look of the team doesn’t have to change just the understanding of the personnel it takes to accomplish the goal. Small ball is nice but you can’t be TOO small and you have to have someone big on the bench for matchup purposes.
_________________ Nared.
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019 Posts: 4701
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Posted: 09/24/21 11:26 pm ::: |
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Assuming EWill finds a way to stay in the League next year, it ought to be in a severely limited role on a team that will only bring her in off the bench. If she had a prime, she's well past it now. Hines-Allen is a trendy target these days, but she's only 6-1 – acquiring her would simply not address the lack of height at all. Harrison I highly doubt gets given away by Dallas. Hawkins is no upgrade for any team if the past two years are any indication.
But while Billings doesn't have an outside shot, I agree that she would generally be a fit. The Liberty could find a way to execute a sign-and-trade with Atlanta to get her so that they wouldn't necessarily have to overpay for her – and without giving up any 1RPs from '22 or '23. I'd ultimately be willing to give up Onyenwere + Jones/Odom/Willoughby, for example. Though you might be able to fleece the Dream with just two of Jones/Odom/Willoughby...
Howard was good at the 5 in Seattle because of who was alongside her at the 4. (And in more subtle fashion, who we had at the other three positions.) If you can get a more talented player than Howard to play the 4 (and this is assuming they are an actual 4), by all means, bring 'em in. And no, I don't think Hines-Allen is more talented than Howard, though they seem to be somewhat equal at this point.
I still think this team ought to bring in two centers/non-short post players, especially if you get to training camp and one of them just isn't jibing & vibing on the court with everyone else, for whatever reason.
The good news is, because this team A) had obviously, objectively improved from 2020 to 2021; and B) continues to be based in New York City (aka nowhere north or west of that), they should be more attractive to free agents this year than average. Keyword: should.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 09/24/21 11:50 pm ::: |
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agree with pretty much everything Stormeo says. Though, while I like how Billings has developed in Atlanta, I don't see how she would be a starter alongside Howard. She would help with rebounding but you're then still undersized. As a backup to Howard, she could be really good, but without the outside shot, not sure she would be a target for Walt and company.
Meeseman would also be an interesting prospect to give some more size, while maintaining mobility. Just not sure she could be lured away from DC where she's apparently comfortable.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24397 Location: London
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Posted: 09/25/21 12:22 am ::: |
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Apart from her probably being cheaper (and health, if you don't trust Hines-Allen to stay in one piece), I don't see the attraction of Billings ahead of Hines-Allen. The listings might claim there's three inches of difference in height, but I don't think they 'play' much different, really. Hines-Allen gives you more mobility, more ballhandling, more range, and generally what's looked like a better player in recent years.
I know people here are generally looking at what they'd like the team to do, rather than what they're expecting, but I don't think they'll give up on their general concept. So the most likely scenario seems like someone who'll help, but still fits within the same idea. Which really does look like Hines-Allen, to me... |
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019 Posts: 4701
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Posted: 09/25/21 12:47 am ::: |
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I do tend to think that if the front office (do we still call them LFO around here? Or was that only a Laimbeer-or-perhaps-earlier era thing?) were to go after someone splashy, it's someone that isn't gonna change the team's playing style/overall dynamic a whole lot – ie a quicker/smaller post player, such as Hines-Allen and Billings. Now, I don't think that gets the job done regarding addressing the team's shortcomings in the post, but we'll shelve that argument for a sec.
Billings is probably closer to 6-2 than her listed 6-4 (which deep down, I think I knew ). However, I do think it's worth wondering what Billings would cost vs. what Hines-Allen would cost, seeing as they're both RFAs.
Signing Hines-Allen away from Washington & daring them to match would most likely mean signing her pretty close to top dollar, especially if Charles is out of Washington's equation by then. Still, maybe they can do it, in which they wouldn't have to give up anything asset-wise – just cap space, basically.
Signing Billings away from Atlanta meanwhile will probably not be possible, since the Dream should have a lot of cap space to work with (aka enough moving parts of their own) at the start of free agency to where they could match & figure out the rest later. Still, a trade shouldn't require anything earth-shattering, unless you're an Onyenwere stan (but like I said, even then, that may not be necessary). Realistically, just don't give away a '22 or a '23 1RP.
But hell, if you're LFO, be prepared to acquire both of them maybe! Sign Hines-Allen right out from under Washington (close to regular max), and trade for Billings (Jones + Shook? Or just Onyenwere straight-up? In terms of Billings' salary, $140k or thereabouts should get it done), and just roll with 11 for next year if you have to. The top two teams this year barely had 10 players to work with this year, fwiw. Maybe that would skew the team too much in the other direction position-wise, but, idk.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 09/25/21 2:16 am ::: |
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As I posted on another thread, I'd rather trade for Ruthy Hebard. She's probably shorter than her listed 6-4, but 6-3 isn't unrealistic. During an early 8-game stretch when she got to start, Ruthy's stats were 29.2 mpg, 11.9 ppg, 8.3 rpg, and 1.6 bpg. Those are solid numbers. Given that she fell to 5th post in Chicago's rotation (I guess Wade prefers veterans) Hebard should be a realistic target. NY needs to add well-rounded two-way players. Billings is a decent rebounder and rim protector, but NY already had someone like that in Stokes. Clearly, it wasn't enough. Hebard gives you a great finisher around the basket, and there's always the possibility that you can squeeze more out of her by reuniting Ruthy with Sabrina -- and vice versa. The two weren't only teammates at Oregon, they were also roommates. I can already feel that instant boost in chemistry.
So, sign Hines-Allen, trade for Hebard, and rotate them with Howard. You add more height and muscle (Hebard 190, MHA 200), but they're still quick enough to play medium-ball.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18055 Location: Queens
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Posted: 09/25/21 6:56 am ::: |
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Stormeo wrote: |
I do tend to think that if the front office (do we still call them LFO around here? Or was that only a Laimbeer-or-perhaps-earlier era thing?) were to go after someone splashy, it's someone that isn't gonna change the team's playing style/overall dynamic a whole lot – ie a quicker/smaller post player, such as Hines-Allen and Billings. Now, I don't think that gets the job done regarding addressing the team's shortcomings in the post, but we'll shelve that argument for a sec.
Billings is probably closer to 6-2 than her listed 6-4 (which deep down, I think I knew ). However, I do think it's worth wondering what Billings would cost vs. what Hines-Allen would cost, seeing as they're both RFAs.
Signing Hines-Allen away from Washington & daring them to match would most likely mean signing her pretty close to top dollar, especially if Charles is out of Washington's equation by then. Still, maybe they can do it, in which they wouldn't have to give up anything asset-wise – just cap space, basically.
Signing Billings away from Atlanta meanwhile will probably not be possible, since the Dream should have a lot of cap space to work with (aka enough moving parts of their own) at the start of free agency to where they could match & figure out the rest later. Still, a trade shouldn't require anything earth-shattering, unless you're an Onyenwere stan (but like I said, even then, that may not be necessary). Realistically, just don't give away a '22 or a '23 1RP.
But hell, if you're LFO, be prepared to acquire both of them maybe! Sign Hines-Allen right out from under Washington (close to regular max), and trade for Billings (Jones + Shook? Or just Onyenwere straight-up? In terms of Billings' salary, $140k or thereabouts should get it done), and just roll with 11 for next year if you have to. The top two teams this year barely had 10 players to work with this year, fwiw. Maybe that would skew the team too much in the other direction position-wise, but, idk. |
One more dubious personnel move and we may have to consider downgrading them back to FFO.
To answer that particular historical question: back in ye olden days when ESPN a) had message boards and b) they were not a wretched hive of trolls and incoherent babbling, Laimbeer or someone else within the organization posted under the handle "shockfrontoffice". When the bulk of the message board action moved over here, that got shortened to SFO. Sometime between stops he figured out how to turn off the caps lock on his keyboard, albeit not in real life. (Perhaps his occasional sidekick clued him in.)
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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Cooper2009
Joined: 04 Nov 2017 Posts: 197 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: 09/25/21 7:10 am ::: |
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root_thing wrote: |
As I posted on another thread, I'd rather trade for Ruthy Hebard. She's probably shorter than her listed 6-4, but 6-3 isn't unrealistic. During an early 8-game stretch when she got to start, Ruthy's stats were 29.2 mpg, 11.9 ppg, 8.3 rpg, and 1.6 bpg. Those are solid numbers. Given that she fell to 5th post in Chicago's rotation (I guess Wade prefers veterans) Hebard should be a realistic target. NY needs to add well-rounded two-way players. Billings is a decent rebounder and rim protector, but NY already had someone like that in Stokes. Clearly, it wasn't enough. Hebard gives you a great finisher around the basket, and there's always the possibility that you can squeeze more out of her by reuniting Ruthy with Sabrina -- and vice versa. The two weren't only teammates at Oregon, they were also roommates. I can already feel that instant boost in chemistry.
So, sign Hines-Allen, trade for Hebard, and rotate them with Howard. You add more height and muscle (Hebard 190, MHA 200), but they're still quick enough to play medium-ball. |
I do like Hebard
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 09/25/21 8:04 am ::: |
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Hebard makes a lot of sense for obvious reasons. And I know Stewie is a unique example but Seattle won a championship with 6’4” and 6’2” in the posts and both players being lightweight. While a little more size is clearly desirable (I don’t think NY originally planned to have Onyenwere play such a large role anyway), the Libs’ goal is going to be versatility over conventional height.
Hebard would also provide a degree of rim protection that you now lack at the 4 spot. Though it’s noteworthy to add that incorporating Hebard would still mean a system change to an extent. I wouldn’t discount Willoughby being the starter next year for that reason. Hines-Allen also would be an obvious system fit.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 09/25/21 8:12 am ::: |
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Also I’ve seen talk that the way the Liberty defended Griner can’t be done over a full season. I don’t agree with that at all. First off the Libs’ D in the late stages of the season was pretty much a full on switching defense with doubles in the paint on the star players. The way the doubles were structured, there weren’t extreme rotations or defensive movement. I think that’s perfectly sustainable. Connecticut doubles Griner aggressively and defensively they turned out fine. I’d say their defense probably has more activity than NY’s structure and they don’t appear worn down by it.
You’re not going to double aggressively every game. Only against the teams with extreme post players. If the rest of the time your defense is a switching defense, there’s going to be little rotating and recovering. I don’t envision the Libs getting more worn down than other teams by using that approach.
As I’ve articulated, I think getting more versatility at the 4 spot will also be a part of the overall picture. I don’t think we will see them trying this scheme with 6’0” 170 starting at the 4 spot next year.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 09/25/21 9:11 am ::: |
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What you do lose is the defensive help for Ionescu. Bec Allen spent a large part of the season defending at point guard to cover Sabrina's deficiencies. I remember Hines-Allen doing a good job slowing down Laney in the second game against Washington, so she can probably defend the bigger wing players pretty well. However, I doubt she can keep up with a PG. Hebard and Howard would be questionable too. So, it would come down to Laney, Whitcomb or whoever else may become the starter at SG. I remember Willoughby actually did a pretty good job on Chennedy Carter.
_________________ You can always do something else.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 09/25/21 10:18 am ::: |
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Yeah that’s true. I think it’s a multifaceted situation in that it’s partially because Sabrina is not a ball-pressure defender. But it’s also that Bec has the length and quickness to prevent entry passes. It’s why when they didn’t have Bec, Laney was oftentimes the primary lead defender. It’s clear that a staple of their defensive philosophy is to use on-ball defense as a means to prevent entry passes as a means to counteract their size disadvantages.
While I understand why they do it and think it definitely has its place, preventing easy entry passes when the ball moves side to side is also important. The lead guard defender is not always in a position to impact that. That’s why I think their later-season scheming is a better approach. As such, when they switch every screen it matters less who defends the PG. Because they’ll cover for certain mismatches by fronting and with double teams. Howard generally does pretty well when switched on a smaller player though Mabrey made her pay a couple times when it appeared to be an assigned matchup. Every defense, even very good ones, will sacrifice something. Under Laimbeer NY was statistically very good defensively. They’d still occasionally give up 100 points to explosive shooting teams even when heathy. To me it’s just about likelihood. It’s kind of like the vaccine. It doesn’t eliminate Covid but it strongly decreases your chances of getting severely ill. With the current system, if you use Hines-Allen or Willoughby in switches on smaller players, you might occasionally get beat. But your larger sample size demonstrates better likelihood of success than Laney trying to defend Stewie in the post from behind with no help on two foot shots.
I wonder what the Libs will do with Bec. While she has certain value, I don’t think it’s worth 25-40% of your remaining cap space. I don’t know the exact percentages so just guessing. But whatever it is, I don’t think Bec’s value is worth it. But the Libs might. If they can develop her further they might not even be wrong. It’s possibly the off-season’s most intriguing subplot.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 09/25/21 10:51 am ::: |
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The big problem with Bec Allen is 2-point shooting -- specifically those drives to the basket that invariably lead to a block or a miss. Her Hoops Stats lists percentile ranks with 1% being the worst and 100% being the best. Allen is 1% for 2-point shooting. In a league with a base of 144 players, she must be the worst or second-worst 2-point shooter in the WNBA.
Walt Hopkins was actually asked point-blank at a press conference about Allen's inability to finish at the rim. He said it was an easy fix. Walt explained that the team worked on finishing around the basket during the Olympic break. Allen missed those training sessions because she was with the Australian team. He assured everyone that the coaching staff would get around to helping Allen. I'm skeptical because this problem has been around for two years, involving a number of players. Last season, Willoughby and Nurse couldn't finish in the paint. This season, Jones has had a lot of problems. Shook is positively terrified around the rim, and recently Howard has missed a lot of close-range shots. So, I'm not convinced our coaching staff is up to the task. Regardless, it does seem to be the main thing holding back Allen. If she was somewhere near average in 2-point shooting, combined with good 3-pt accuracy and superior defense, Allen would be in high demand.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 09/25/21 10:59 am ::: |
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I wonder if her poor midrange game is an easy fix in his opinion too. She’s also a borderline terrible passer. Once she dribbles, a productive pass is unbelievably rare.
The Liberty shot .574 from 1-5 feet. 9th in the league. Howard finished at .632, but some of her misses were totally uncompetitive. Off the backboard and totally missing the rim. I figure if she has a healthy season that will fix itself, but there were moments of absolute frustration there.
The other players are a different matter. Beyond the finishing aspect they also have to work on lowering the free throw discrepancy. Here’s a stat. They attempted 140 more field goals from 1-5 feet than the Mystics. The Mystics attempted 86 more free throws anyway. They have to work on creating the types of contact that result in getting to the foul line.
_________________ The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
Last edited by NYL_WNBA_FAN on 09/25/21 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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