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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 09/18/21 9:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There was a lot of news yesterday. The missing adorable blonde girl. The typical well timed late Friday dumping of the Defense department owning up to their horrible drone strike killing innocent civilians and children in Afghanistan.

And then we have competing for our attention this bland announcement that this FDA advisory panel unanimously APPROVED booster shots for those 65 and older. Yawn. Again, that was not the big story here. That approval was a second vote on a second question taken after the first vote on a first question which itself was hotly debated long before yesterday’s zoom meeting. And that vote was 16-2 against approving booster shots for Americans. They even took a lunch break or something before reconvening to address the issue of vaccines for older Americans.

And one more time, I think it’s just as interesting how this story has and is being handled by the news media as is the actual decision itself. And I think as this winter and what seems like an an unavoidable winter surge befalls us, this decision yesterday will be scrutinized and second guessed.

I say this as a person who would have much preferred a green light been given on boosters for all of us. I think Fauci and this administration were rolling like steam (who came up with that one?) in that direction and the FDA scientists who resigned in protest of the administration’s push for boosters and now this wholesale 16-2 vote against them signifies that some known data or information is driving this dissent on boosters and that’s not making it to the public.

That’s why we’re here on Rebkell’s guessing.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15691
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 09/18/21 10:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
I sincerely hope we all come here valuing our differences of opinion,

But of course. We're a cut above those who might simply seek an echo chamber. Cool
jammerbirdi wrote:
NPR actually did the best job here.

Not surprising. I saw that interview on PBS Newshour last night. I didn't find anything about it alarming, but then....perhaps that's my naivete kicking in.

I can't think of any way to prove/disprove your assertions, jammer; there may be hidden dangers in what most of us view as a (literal) life-saver. My simple way of viewing it is THIS: 99.999% of those dying from covid 19 have NOT been vaccinated. Is it too simplistic to say that this PROVES its effective, and has been the correct 'direction' in this fight? And how does one ever ascertain the truthful underpinnings the political/scientific wrangling?



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Last edited by Howee on 09/18/21 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 09/18/21 10:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think with this decision yesterday, what we seriously need right now is hard and honest reporting on who and how many by hook or by crook have already gotten a booster. This is SUCH a weird moment. lol. New York Times columnist two months ago write of her personal paranoia and hypochondriacal efforts to get a booster. Then just two weeks ago the Times publishes a piece on how you too can get yours even if you have to LIE. And now this panel votes 16-2 against them.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 09/18/21 10:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee I would like nothing more than all green lights on the scientific road to ending this pandemic. Certainly and have no doubt that’s what I would love to see right now. But I’ve made my living on Rebkell’s (what?) picking apart the things I believe are going wrong on every issue under the sun. But I would have liked nothing more than a unanimous vote approving boosters for everyone. I was shocked when I heard of the FDA scientists resigning in protest of the administration’s pushing of boosters and surprised by this vote yesterday.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: 09/18/21 11:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I wasn't surprised by the vote. The data doesn't support boosters for every individual. When Biden brought up the issue of boosters, he said the plan was subject to FDA approval. The resignation of Gruber and Krause was handwriting on the wall. Getting everyone fully vaccinated would do a lot more to save lives in the US than giving boosters at this time. Sending vaccines to the unvaccinated third world would not only save their lives but reduce the risk of more contagious and lethal variants down the road. There was every reason for the FDA to vote the way it did.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 09/18/21 11:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
I think with this decision yesterday, what we seriously need right now is hard and honest reporting on who and how many by hook or by crook have already gotten a booster. This is SUCH a weird moment. lol. New York Times columnist two months ago write of her personal paranoia and hypochondriacal efforts to get a booster. Then just two weeks ago the Times publishes a piece on how you too can get yours even if you have to LIE. And now this panel votes 16-2 against them.


Just TRY finding these two pieces. I’m sure they’re still there but I’m having a hard time and I’m a subscriber and can search the archive.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 09/18/21 1:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
I wasn't surprised by the vote. The data doesn't support boosters for every individual. When Biden brought up the issue of boosters, he said the plan was subject to FDA approval. The resignation of Gruber and Krause was handwriting on the wall. Getting everyone fully vaccinated would do a lot more to save lives in the US than giving boosters at this time. Sending vaccines to the unvaccinated third world would not only save their lives but reduce the risk of more contagious and lethal variants down the road. There was every reason for the FDA to vote the way it did.


So one (J&J) or two doses (mRNA) is all we need for the remainder of this pandemic? Of course not. So when do we get the second year vaccination? Or whatever we’re going to call it. Do we look at the calendar? Do we look at when immunity falls below a certain threshold? Do we look at how successful we’ve been here trying to force vaccinations onto people who are continuing to refuse them? Maybe get more creative with our means of coercion? Are we going to let millions of doses we already have or will have sit idle till the world catches up to us? I don’t want to sound like the late great Bill Paxton in Aliens but this thing is getting ready to kick the shit out of us, man. I mean, if it were the flu and flu vaccines we’d be talking like, “Flu season is upon us AGAIN. Everyone remember to get your flu shot.” mrs jammer got her first shot on January 2nd. That date is coming around fast and what in the next three months is truly left of her resistance to COVID?



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
DivaORcat16



Joined: 13 May 2020
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PostPosted: 09/18/21 1:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here's where my brain goes with this.

If they don't give out boosters because efficacy is waning in the vaccines over time, cases would rise even in the vaccinated. Which would justify continuing government mandates and control.

I'm sure I will catch cr*p here for this. I don't post replies on a lot of things because of that.

I have to say jammerbirdi, I find your posts spot on. I don't think enough people are looking too deeply.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 09/18/21 3:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Thank you.

See that, people! Somebody believes me!



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15691
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 09/18/21 4:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

DivaORcat16 wrote:
I have to say jammerbirdi, I find your posts spot on. I don't think enough people are looking too deeply.

Hmmm. Now, what exactly did he promise you for THAT endorsement!?? Razz Laughing

DivaORcat16 wrote:
Here's where my brain goes with this.

If they don't give out boosters because efficacy is waning in the vaccines over time, cases would rise even in the vaccinated. Which would justify continuing government mandates and control.

You lost me on this: why would any scientist protest booster vaccines because efficacy is waning? That's the precise reason doctors advocate for booster vaccines. Now, I haven't read any of the reporting on their verdict; has anyone seen/read any explanations by any of the "no booster" doctors to explain their logic?

DivaORcat16 wrote:
I'm sure I will catch cr*p here for this. I don't post replies on a lot of things because of that.

Just remember, people questioning one's posts or offering divergent opinions shouldn't be thought of as "catching crap".



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Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"


Last edited by Howee on 09/18/21 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 09/18/21 5:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maybe a comma missing, Howee. Could be read as Because efficacy is waning, not giving out boosters would result in an increase of cases even in the already vaccinated. Which, hello, is precisely the nightmare direction I believe we’re heading in.

Leave my only fan alone. For crying out loud. 😭



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: 09/18/21 6:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:


DivaORcat16 wrote:
Here's where my brain goes with this.

If they don't give out boosters because efficacy is waning in the vaccines over time, cases would rise even in the vaccinated. Which would justify continuing government mandates and control.

You lost me on this: why would any scientist protest booster vaccines because efficacy is waning? That's the precise reasons doctors advocate for booster vaccines. Now, I haven't read any of the reporting on their verdict; has anyone seen/read any explanations by any of the "no booster" doctors to explain their logic?


Howee, this recent viewpoint piece from The Lancet discusses a lot of considerations, from the mRNA vaccines still being very effective at preventing severe disease, flaws in the Israel (and other) studies, need for more research on side effects from third doses (e.g. myocarditis), that variant-based boosters are probably a better strategy, gain from boosters is outweighed by gain from vaccinating the unvax'ed, and the need to get vaccines to the third world. It was signed by epidemiologists, the FDA resigners, and people from the NIH and WHO.


Quote:
To date, none of these studies has provided credible evidence of substantially declining protection against severe disease, even when there appear to be declines over time in vaccine efficacy against symptomatic disease. In a study in Minnesota, point estimates of the efficacy of mRNA vaccines against hospitalisation appeared lower in July, 2021, than in the previous 6 months, but these estimates had wide confidence intervals and could have been affected by some of the issues described above. Of interest, reported effectiveness against severe disease in Israel was lower among people vaccinated either in January or April than in those vaccinated in February or March, exemplifying the difficulty of interpreting such data. A recent report on the experience in Israel during the first 3 weeks of August, 2021, just after booster doses were approved and began to be deployed widely, has suggested efficacy of a third dose (relative to two doses). Mean follow-up was, however, only about 7 person-days (less than expected based on the apparent study design); perhaps more importantly, a very short-term protective effect would not necessarily imply worthwhile long-term benefit. In the USA, large numbers of adults are fully vaccinated, large numbers are unvaccinated, and systematic comparisons between them are ongoing. Recent reports of large US studies (one from the US CDC's COVID-NET and two from major health maintenance organisations) demonstrate the continued high efficacy of full vaccination against severe disease or hospitalisation.


Quote:
Thus, any decisions about the need for boosting or timing of boosting should be based on careful analyses of adequately controlled clinical or epidemiological data, or both, indicating a persistent and meaningful reduction in severe disease, with a benefit–risk evaluation that considers the number of severe cases that boosting would be expected to prevent, along with evidence about whether a specific boosting regimen is likely to be safe and effective against currently circulating variants. As more information becomes available, it may first provide evidence that boosting is needed in some subpopulations. However, these high-stakes decisions should be based on peer-reviewed and publicly available data and robust international scientific discussion.


https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02046-8/fulltext[/quote]


DivaORcat16



Joined: 13 May 2020
Posts: 45



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PostPosted: 09/19/21 12:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Oh Howee, your ears must have been burning and you took the bait.

Also, I wasn't "promised" anything by jammerbirdi. Just because I agree with some of jammer's views must put me on a list you keep. If that was my first go to viewpoint for someone else's opinion I might question my own views.

So I wasn't clear in my point-
No booster approvals to combat waning vaccine efficacy would equal a rise in cases even in the vaccinated= More government mandates. More control.

I had the virus. It's my choice to not get vaccinated. I take that risk. I follow masking and distancing.

There are no allowances for those with natural immunity. Why? Even Fauci couldn't or wouldn't answer that straight when asked by Gupta on CNN


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 09/19/21 1:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

DivaORcat16 wrote:
I had the virus. It's my choice to not get vaccinated. I take that risk. I follow masking and distancing.


I get that....I know several people in that category; maybe people who have survived it could get documentation (a la the vax passport) to prove they don't need the vaccine?

I'm curious: is it very costly to get blood tests for antibody presence? I have a friend who (apparently) had a bad case of it in January of 2020, but it wasn't diagnosed at the time, with its relative newness. His doctor informed him this summer that he did, indeed, have the antibodies for covid.



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DivaORcat16



Joined: 13 May 2020
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PostPosted: 09/19/21 7:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would consider some sort of passport document. Although I haven't seen a consensus about antibodies. Natural antibodies are rarely brought up or discussed.

My insurance won't cover antibody testing. It would be out of pocket. Of course I would have to find a lab locally that will do the test. Locally the healthcare field for our county has been "focused on Covid testing and vaccinations".

I and my doctor believe I had it in January 2020. She has even said "our entire office was hit at some point in December 2019 through February 2020, and it wasn't the flu".

The masks have done wonders for my seasonal allergies, colds, and not smelling over perfumed women which trigger massive headaches in me!


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 09/20/21 1:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

DivaORcat16 wrote:


I and my doctor believe I had it in January 2020. She has even said "our entire office was hit at some point in December 2019 through February 2020, and it wasn't the flu".


You know what they call this? Anecdotal information. But there’s a lot of talk about this being the case. As I said here last year. I went to a Lakers game in very early January. Young non English speaking Asian guy coughing throughout the game right next to us. Before masks but with COVID already in the news but with no known cases in the US. Couple days later it hit me. Never felt anything quite like it. Wasn’t bad but was intensely wet. Sneezing blowing my nose coughing. I thought I was going to be in for it. But it only lasted a day! lol. I don’t remember much else about it except that, as I said, I never felt exactly like that before. So who knows. Whatever it was, I caught it from that dude though.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
Ex-Ref



Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: 09/20/21 6:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

BREAKING NEWS - Pfizer BioNTech ok for children 5-12.

Quote:
Pfizer-BioNTech's COVID-19 vaccine is safe and effective for children ages 5 to 11 at one-third the dose used in adolescents and adults, according to a new study from the companies.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/09/20/kids-covid-vaccine-pfizer-biontech-low-dose-safe-study/8413595002/



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"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw

“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
tfan



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PostPosted: 09/22/21 7:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:

gain from boosters is outweighed by gain from vaccinating the unvax'ed


This makes sense to me if they make a case for "can't do both". Like there are a lot of unvaccinated who are starting to change their minds and/or being forced to by new vaccine mandates and that will cause clinics to be overrun if we try and also do a booster. Or if the vaccine folks were saying that we don't have enough vaccines available for both the unvaccinated who are now being forced or changing their minds, and to give booster shots. I may have missed it, but haven't heard either and that's a pretty persuasive argument for them to throw out and it wouldn't even have to be true (for them to throw it out, like the original "don't wear masks").

Quote:
and the need to get vaccines to the third world


Still gets my vote as the reason.

------------------------------------------------

Saw something today that Johnson & Johnson has done some trial with people getting two doses and the effectiveness went up over 90%.




Last edited by tfan on 09/22/21 7:28 am; edited 1 time in total
FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 09/22/21 7:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:

gain from boosters is outweighed by gain from vaccinating the unvax'ed


This makes sense to me if there are a lot of unvaccinated who are starting to change their minds and/or being forced to by new vaccine mandates and that will cause clinics to be overrun if we try and also do a booster. Or if the vaccine folks were saying that we don't have enough vaccines available for both the unvaccinated who are now being forced or changing their minds, and to give booster shots. But I haven't heard either and that's a pretty persuasive argument for them to throw out and it wouldn't even have to be true (for them to throw it out ala masks).

Quote:
and the need to get vaccines to the third world


Still gets my vote as the reason.


My take from what I read is that the order of importance of their reasons was more or less in the order I listed them.


Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 09/23/21 5:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd like to see the bill for all of this. I just don't understand going through all of this when you could have had a vaccine at no cost to you.

Quote:
A Florida COVID-19 patient was brought to Connecticut earlier this month for a life-saving treatment after his family reached out to 169 hospitals without success.

Susan Walker was running out of time. Her husband Robby Walker was lying in a Florida hospital on a ventilator with COVID-19, pneumonia in both lungs.


https://www.wane.com/news/unvaccinated-florida-covid-patient-flown-to-connecticut-for-life-saving-treatment-after-reaching-out-to-169-hospitals/



_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw

“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3510



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PostPosted: 09/23/21 6:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
I'd like to see the bill for all of this. I just don't understand going through all of this when you could have had a vaccine at no cost to you.

Quote:
A Florida COVID-19 patient was brought to Connecticut earlier this month for a life-saving treatment after his family reached out to 169 hospitals without success.

Susan Walker was running out of time. Her husband Robby Walker was lying in a Florida hospital on a ventilator with COVID-19, pneumonia in both lungs.


https://www.wane.com/news/unvaccinated-florida-covid-patient-flown-to-connecticut-for-life-saving-treatment-after-reaching-out-to-169-hospitals/


That story doesn't say how long the patient was on ECMO, but I read recently about another unvaccinated patient who spent 84 days on ECMO and was in the hospital for >5 months. The reported costs of ECMO are all over the place but upwards of $80K/day is probably close. When the total costs are in the millions, no patient or insurance company is going to pay more than a small fraction, and either the hospital or taxpayers have to absorb the rest.


Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 09/23/21 9:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
Ex-Ref wrote:
I'd like to see the bill for all of this. I just don't understand going through all of this when you could have had a vaccine at no cost to you.

Quote:
A Florida COVID-19 patient was brought to Connecticut earlier this month for a life-saving treatment after his family reached out to 169 hospitals without success.

Susan Walker was running out of time. Her husband Robby Walker was lying in a Florida hospital on a ventilator with COVID-19, pneumonia in both lungs.


https://www.wane.com/news/unvaccinated-florida-covid-patient-flown-to-connecticut-for-life-saving-treatment-after-reaching-out-to-169-hospitals/


That story doesn't say how long the patient was on ECMO, but I read recently about another unvaccinated patient who spent 84 days on ECMO and was in the hospital for >5 months. The reported costs of ECMO are all over the place but upwards of $80K/day is probably close. When the total costs are in the millions, no patient or insurance company is going to pay more than a small fraction, and either the hospital or taxpayers have to absorb the rest.


Right. And that's just wrong!!!! I'm all for helping people when they are in need, but at some point, there needs to be a line drawn, otherwise the system will implode.



_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw

“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3510



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PostPosted: 09/23/21 9:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
Ex-Ref wrote:
I'd like to see the bill for all of this. I just don't understand going through all of this when you could have had a vaccine at no cost to you.

Quote:
A Florida COVID-19 patient was brought to Connecticut earlier this month for a life-saving treatment after his family reached out to 169 hospitals without success.

Susan Walker was running out of time. Her husband Robby Walker was lying in a Florida hospital on a ventilator with COVID-19, pneumonia in both lungs.


https://www.wane.com/news/unvaccinated-florida-covid-patient-flown-to-connecticut-for-life-saving-treatment-after-reaching-out-to-169-hospitals/


That story doesn't say how long the patient was on ECMO, but I read recently about another unvaccinated patient who spent 84 days on ECMO and was in the hospital for >5 months. The reported costs of ECMO are all over the place but upwards of $80K/day is probably close. When the total costs are in the millions, no patient or insurance company is going to pay more than a small fraction, and either the hospital or taxpayers have to absorb the rest.


Right. And that's just wrong!!!! I'm all for helping people when they are in need, but at some point, there needs to be a line drawn, otherwise the system will implode.


I don't think the long-term effects of COVID on our healthcare system are well appreciated yet. But if you're going to draw a line, is it based on the amount of resources utilized, or on vaccination status? Or something else?

The reason I ask is that recently there was also a story about a man who was in the hospital for ~ 6 months and required a double lung transplant. He got COVID in February before the vaccine was available to the general public. Obviously the cost of his care will be in the millions too, although insurance, if he had any, usually covers the transplant. Is the line drawn in a different place for him, because he didn't refuse the vaccine?

(BTW, there are now dozens of COVID patients that have had double lung transplants since the start of the pandemic.)


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15691
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 09/23/21 10:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
But if you're going to draw a line, is it based on the amount of resources utilized, or on vaccination status? Or something else?

I agree on *lines* but yeah....where are they drawn? I mean, it sounds somewhat dystopian to be so harsh: America and her resources are for EVERY ONE of her citizens, right??! ( Laughing )

I don't think it's too harsh to draw the line for people who have CHOSEN to forego the vaccine 'just because'; those with valid reasons their doctor can corroborate could be excused. BUT. I also hope it doesn't come to that....I'd like to believe that's NOT the America we aspire to be.



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DivaORcat16



Joined: 13 May 2020
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PostPosted: 09/23/21 4:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree with this part Howee "I'd like to believe that's NOT the America we aspire to be".

It's a very slippery slope when discussing who would get healthcare and who would be excluded, because of their choices about a vaccine. What would be the next thing that people would be excluded for? Who get's to decide?


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