View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 8833
Back to top |
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
Posted: 08/28/21 6:32 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Let’s Not Pretend That the Way We Withdrew From Afghanistan Was the Problem
Quote: |
Focusing on the execution of the withdrawal is giving virtually everyone who insisted we could remake Afghanistan the opportunity to obscure their failures by pretending to believe in the possibility of a graceful departure. It’s also obscuring the true alternative to withdrawal: endless occupation. But what our ignominious exit really reflects is the failure of America’s foreign policy establishment at both prediction and policymaking in Afghanistan. |
_________________ ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1088 Location: NorCal
Back to top |
Posted: 08/28/21 7:46 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
justintyme wrote: |
Let’s Not Pretend That the Way We Withdrew From Afghanistan Was the Problem
Quote: |
Focusing on the execution of the withdrawal is giving virtually everyone who insisted we could remake Afghanistan the opportunity to obscure their failures by pretending to believe in the possibility of a graceful departure. It’s also obscuring the true alternative to withdrawal: endless occupation. But what our ignominious exit really reflects is the failure of America’s foreign policy establishment at both prediction and policymaking in Afghanistan. |
|
Lets not pretend that it wasn't either. Just like in Vet Nahm the withdawal by a different administration who did not have the resolve to hold the other side accountable for the conditions of that withdrawal was the nail in the coffin. No one really knows what might have happened if the Veit Cong and the Taliban were held accountable. Both the Taliban and the Veit Cong knew that that they were dealing with a weak government.
Whether the USA should have gotten involved in Afghanistan or even how long it drug out are separate issues from how the withdrawal was handled. Anyone with any militatry back ground, or just common sense for that matter, understands that a withdrawal provides the enemy with their greatest opportunity and must be very careflully planned.
The way this withdrawal was carried out was the worst possible way it could have been handled. The consequnces will have a lasting negative effect. The attempt to distract from this monumental blunder is only an excuse by those that were compasient in putting an incompetent into office. Is that your agenda? Are you attempting to justify your choice?
_________________ No one one is ever as good as their best game, nor as bad as their worst.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66772 Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
Posted: 08/28/21 9:30 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
willtalk wrote: |
The attempt to distract from this monumental blunder is only an excuse by those that were compasient in putting an incompetent into office. Is that your agenda? Are you attempting to justify your choice? |
The Democratic Party rigged their primaries to get him nominated and there was no viable Republican alternative in the general election.
You still haven't shown any other course than endless occupation. At some point we were going to pull out and chaos was going to happen. It was inevitable.
_________________ Let us not deceive ourselves. Our educational institutions have proven to be no bastions of democracy.
|
|
toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22470 Location: NJ
Back to top |
Posted: 08/29/21 12:54 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
This has been a 20 year disaster with never a plan to get out. I do worry this is overwhelming Biden though. He was handed a pile of garbage left by #45. And now this is being added to his already full plate. My worry is he won't accept a second term and the 2024 election will be total chaos. Harris isn't likeable, hence why she did so badly in the Democratic primaries. So if Biden opts out of his second term, I worry for who the best candidate can be to possibly go up against Don Jr., DeSantis or Nikki Haley.
_________________ LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!
Twitter: @TBRBWAY
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15690 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
Posted: 08/29/21 1:20 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
pilight wrote: |
willtalk wrote: |
The attempt to distract from this monumental blunder is only an excuse by those that were compasient in putting an incompetent into office. Is that your agenda? Are you attempting to justify your choice? |
The Democratic Party rigged their primaries to get him nominated and there was no viable Republican alternative in the general election.
You still haven't shown any other course than endless occupation . At some point we were going to pull out and chaos was going to happen. It was inevitable. |
Willtalk must be thinking of Trump....he's the one afforded boundless excuses by those who chose to put an Uber-Incompetent Person into office. HE'S the one who negotiated to release all the terrorists from prison, etc.
"Endless occupation" is the ONLY other option . Which is really NOT an option. Americans are too caught up in the Hollywood war story narratives, where all the good guys exterminate all the bad guys, and there's peace in the valley. This is not our current reality.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66772 Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
|
Conway Gamecock
Joined: 23 Jan 2015 Posts: 1881 Location: Here
Back to top |
Posted: 09/01/21 10:34 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
[quote="FrozenLVFan"]
Conway Gamecock wrote: |
Stonington_QB wrote: |
We did NOT leave the Afghani military with a significant advantage. In fact, we did everything possible to ensure their failure. We left them without offering one iota of assistance. The Afghani military collapsed because the United States removed all logistical support.
blah blah blah.... |
One thing that we were kind enough to leave behind is a biometric database of Afghan national security forces including their fingerprints and iris scans, as well as extensive records of Afghans employed by the US along with a computer trail of whom we paid and for what. The Taliban is undoubtedly finding these items very useful in making up their kill lists. |
While the U.S.'s mode of departure from their occupation of Afghanistan was very poorly done, it pales in comparison to the Afghanistan's military and governmental collapse in the face of the Taliban's advances across the country. Their almost instantaneous capitulation would embarrass even the cards of a house of cards.
But you cannot say that whatever data/info of Afghani national forces and assets the Taliban may possibly find left behind by the retreating U.S. forces, wouldn't also be there to pluck from the actual Afghani governmental offices and military bases left behind by the actual governmental collapse themselves. It was after all, their own data......
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3510
Back to top |
Posted: 09/02/21 9:01 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Per the WSJ this morning (rest of article is behind paywall)...
"ISLAMABAD—Afghanistan’s neighbors have closed their land borders to people trying to flee its new Taliban rulers, trapping tens of thousands of people who are eligible to resettle in the U.S. and other countries but were unable to enter the airport in Kabul before the international airlift ended."
Unfortunately, NPR is reporting that "as many as 29" students from Sacramento remained trapped in Afghanistan. https://www.npr.org/2021/09/01/1033294030/american-students-afghanistan-sacramento-san-juan-district
And Biden is getting some heat from human rights groups over collateral damage from that drone strike and questions about the legality of planning over-the-horizon strikes into areas that are not part of recognized war zones. In addition, this type of operation is unlikely to be successful given that we're lost our boots-on-the-ground intel assets.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/09/02/deadly-drone-airstrike-collateral-damage-afghanistan-us/
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66772 Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
Posted: 09/02/21 9:22 am ::: |
Reply |
|
The US withdrawal was announced 18 months ago. Any civilians still hanging around Kabul or the Afghan countryside clearly weren't too keen on leaving.
_________________ Let us not deceive ourselves. Our educational institutions have proven to be no bastions of democracy.
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15690 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
Posted: 09/02/21 2:56 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
pilight wrote: |
The US withdrawal was announced 18 months ago. Any civilians still hanging around Kabul or the Afghan countryside clearly weren't too keen on leaving. |
Indeed. And honestly, the number of evacuees was far greater than I anticipated, given the circumstances.
With the American students still there....aren't they ethnic Afghans?
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3510
Back to top |
Posted: 09/02/21 4:03 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Howee wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
The US withdrawal was announced 18 months ago. Any civilians still hanging around Kabul or the Afghan countryside clearly weren't too keen on leaving. |
Indeed. And honestly, the number of evacuees was far greater than I anticipated, given the circumstances.
With the American students still there....aren't they ethnic Afghans? |
News stories variously say they are Afghan refugees, permanent legal residents of the US, and/or US citizens, and they were visiting Afghan relatives. (Afghanistan is a multi-ethnic, multi-tribal country...there isn't a single "Afghan ethnicity".) That doesn't mean they're safe. Neither the Taliban or ISIS are friendly to Afghans who have lived in the US or who attend non-religious schools. There are thousands of students from the American University of Afghanistan who are also desperately trying to get out of the country. That school has been attacked several times in the past by the Taliban. ISIS-K bombed a girls' school in Kabul in May.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/31/opinions/american-university-afghanistan-students/index.html
Those left in Afghanistan complain of broken US promises
"Even in the final days of Washington’s chaotic airlift in Afghanistan, Javed Habibi was getting phone calls from the U.S. government promising that the green card holder from Richmond, Virginia, his wife and their four daughters would not be left behind.
He was told to stay home and not worry, that they would be evacuated.
Late Monday, however, his heart sank as he heard that the final U.S. flights had left Kabul’s airport, followed by the blistering staccato sound of Taliban gunfire, celebrating what they saw as their victory over America.
“They lied to us,” Habibi said of the U.S. government. He is among hundreds of American citizens and green card holders stranded in the Afghan capital."
https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-travel-afghanistan-immigration-8dfd16bf16a15bb9896743719c82e115
|
|
|
|