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Iluvacc
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BamaEd
Joined: 11 May 2014
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 Posted: 06/23/21 3:44 pm ::: |
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While I am bummed for Nneka, my thoughts aren't really about her specifically. I just hate that the USA Basketball system has caused several really good players to country shop because they were strung along, because of favoritism, or not bringing in new faces to keep the team "fresh" for lack of a better term.
If this were a country with a smaller pool of good players, then yes, you keep those stars in as long as possible. But with the talent pool we have in the USA, and with the honor and privilege of playing for your country, I hate that more don't get the chance. I think have new faces play alongside vets is good for all involved. I don't care what school they played at or what WNBA team they are on, as long as they are good players and play well as a team in a system.
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 06/23/21 4:02 pm ::: |
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| BamaEd wrote: |
While I am bummed for Nneka, my thoughts aren't really about her specifically. I just hate that the USA Basketball system has caused several really good players to country shop because they were strung along, because of favoritism, or not bringing in new faces to keep the team "fresh" for lack of a better term.
If this were a country with a smaller pool of good players, then yes, you keep those stars in as long as possible. But with the talent pool we have in the USA, and with the honor and privilege of playing for your country, I hate that more don't get the chance. I think have new faces play alongside vets is good for all involved. I don't care what school they played at or what WNBA team they are on, as long as they are good players and play well as a team in a system. |
This is an incorrect take. The American players who take foreign passports do it for money. With rules in Europe restricting each team's # of non europeans, those passports can be worth millions over a career. Sloot, for example, in 2016, could have waited on a Whalen retirement (plus who could have predicted Bird still around?). The USA Olympic team would have been a sure thing for her. She opted to go for the big $ that she currently makes playing for Ekat. Nothing wrong here, but she made that choice.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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Location: London
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| Posted: 06/23/21 4:40 pm ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| BamaEd wrote: |
While I am bummed for Nneka, my thoughts aren't really about her specifically. I just hate that the USA Basketball system has caused several really good players to country shop because they were strung along, because of favoritism, or not bringing in new faces to keep the team "fresh" for lack of a better term.
If this were a country with a smaller pool of good players, then yes, you keep those stars in as long as possible. But with the talent pool we have in the USA, and with the honor and privilege of playing for your country, I hate that more don't get the chance. I think have new faces play alongside vets is good for all involved. I don't care what school they played at or what WNBA team they are on, as long as they are good players and play well as a team in a system. |
This is an incorrect take. The American players who take foreign passports do it for money. With rules in Europe restricting each team's # of non europeans, those passports can be worth millions over a career. Sloot, for example, in 2016, could have waited on a Whalen retirement (plus who could have predicted Bird still around?). The USA Olympic team would have been a sure thing for her. She opted to go for the big $ that she currently makes playing for Ekat. Nothing wrong here, but she made that choice. |
Of course it's partly for the cash, but it's also because they get sick of waiting. Vandersloot was in Team USA pools, but there was no guarantee that she was going to get a chance if she just kept sitting around and 'waiting her turn' - especially if she wanted to go and earn money overseas, because that means being away in the WNBA offseason, which often means missing USA camps, and therefore being less likely to be picked. Same thing happened as far back as Hammon and plenty of others along the way - a lot of them would've forgone the money if they felt there was a realistic prospect of being on a USA squad. But with it looking so unlikely, they took the money instead. When you feel like it's a choice between playing for no one or making some extra money for playing a few games for Random Country X, why not? |
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 06/23/21 5:04 pm ::: |
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I just have to state how glad I am that Chelsea Gray is FINALLY getting the recognition she deserves! All through college she was "behind" Diggins and Sims because they had great college coaches and Chelsea was stuck with JPM. Chelsea was always "the point gawd" of that class! Now she's only behind Bird on the pecking order for PG of Team USA, with Diggins lagging behind and Sims not on the team.
Yes, Chelsea had significant injuries in college and it took a couple of years to show her stuff in the WNBA but she was ALWAYS the most talented. Finally. Can't wait to watch her go up against the world and dazzle on the biggest stage.
Chelsea has a great attitude, is loved by all teammates and coaches. Kudos to her for taking advantage of WNBA free agency and getting herself to a WNBA team with a great coach instead of continuing to get overlooked due to having a bad coach. Yes, she did earn WNBA first team while in LA but was regressing under Coach Fisher. Now she's ON FIRE and has the chance to learn how to excel on the international stage under tutelage of two of the greatest PG's: Bird & Staley.
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 06/23/21 5:34 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| BamaEd wrote: |
While I am bummed for Nneka, my thoughts aren't really about her specifically. I just hate that the USA Basketball system has caused several really good players to country shop because they were strung along, because of favoritism, or not bringing in new faces to keep the team "fresh" for lack of a better term.
If this were a country with a smaller pool of good players, then yes, you keep those stars in as long as possible. But with the talent pool we have in the USA, and with the honor and privilege of playing for your country, I hate that more don't get the chance. I think have new faces play alongside vets is good for all involved. I don't care what school they played at or what WNBA team they are on, as long as they are good players and play well as a team in a system. |
This is an incorrect take. The American players who take foreign passports do it for money. With rules in Europe restricting each team's # of non europeans, those passports can be worth millions over a career. Sloot, for example, in 2016, could have waited on a Whalen retirement (plus who could have predicted Bird still around?). The USA Olympic team would have been a sure thing for her. She opted to go for the big $ that she currently makes playing for Ekat. Nothing wrong here, but she made that choice. |
Of course it's partly for the cash, but it's also because they get sick of waiting. Vandersloot was in Team USA pools, but there was no guarantee that she was going to get a chance if she just kept sitting around and 'waiting her turn' - especially if she wanted to go and earn money overseas, because that means being away in the WNBA offseason, which often means missing USA camps, and therefore being less likely to be picked. Same thing happened as far back as Hammon and plenty of others along the way - a lot of them would've forgone the money if they felt there was a realistic prospect of being on a USA squad. But with it looking so unlikely, they took the money instead. When you feel like it's a choice between playing for no one or making some extra money for playing a few games for Random Country X, why not? |
In the case of Sloot, this is nonsense. Hungary has not been in the Olympics since 1980 (USA boycott year to boot). She did not accept that passport out of any desire to play in the Olympics. Again, nothing wrong here, but it was all about the $. Look at that 2016 USA player pool; Whalen and Bird were aging, and Sloot would have been heir apparent. Another point: until Covid, most every player on the USA Olympic team (08; 12; 16) was playing overseas in the off season. Playing in Europe or China was never an obstacle to making roster; in fact, the pre Olympic schedule catered to these overseas commitments. BTW u paint these decisions as all or none in reference to passports. Plenty of American passport players still play overseas, but they don't command the same $ b/c the # of foreign spots on highest paying teams are limited. Again the decision was not passing on $; just going for bigger paycheck.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 06/23/21 6:02 pm ::: |
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| My mistake for forgetting how utterly pointless it is to have any kind of debate with you. |
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 06/23/21 6:30 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| My mistake for forgetting how utterly pointless it is to have any kind of debate with you. |
Typical response when caught spouting imaginary nonsense. Just check out the # of USA Olympians who played overseas in 2008, 2012, and 2016. U create a whole thesis that somehow playing overseas hurts USA roster chances out of a bag of nothing.....I will save u time. in the period running up to 2016 selections, of the 12, the only 2 who did not were DelaD, and college grad Stew. Here is article from 2016: https://www.usab.com/news-events/news/2016/02/2016-wnt-minicamp-participants.aspx
Key quotes: 'Taking advantage of a break in action of the European professional leagues, the USA Basketball Women’s National Team will conduct a training camp Feb. 21-23"
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 06/23/21 10:13 pm ::: |
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Here is a report from 2012:
https://www.hoopfeed.com/content/2012/04/usa-basketball-womens-national-team-to-face-scrimmage-vs-china-during-may-11-13-training-camp-in-seattle/
Key quote:"I’m looking forward to it because it’ll be the first time that the entire team will be together," said Geno Auriemma, 2009-12 USA National Team and University of Connecticut head coach. "It’s been kind of difficult with everybody’s schedules to have many training camps. So, I’m really looking forward to it from that standpoint."
Before the salary bonanza from the new CBA, pretty much every Olympic level USA player went overseas. It is ignorance to opine that historically playing off season in foreign countries had any effect on roster selection.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 06/23/21 11:55 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| Davis4632 wrote: |
| I would take Bird in that situation. I also remember the Storm post Jackson pre Stewart years too. |
Oh, you mean, when the Compiler averaged what was, until last year, career lows in scoring, on a career-worst shooting percentage, and near-career lows in assists, and the Storm were trash? |
Are u serious? Calling Bird a "compiler" overlooks the large # of huge plays in her admittedly long career. A quick review would include the 14 points in last 6 minutes of 2018 Phx deciding game ; the game winning 3 in 2010 Phx semifinal (preceded by block on Johnson, and bounce pass to Cash); the game winner at buzzer in Game 1 finals vs Atlanta; the steal vs Tolliver last 5 seconds in game 2 2018 Finals. There are plenty more during regular seasons. Sloot is a great pg, but she has ZERO of these kind of plays, and her chance in 2019 was one of biggest blunders in W plaoiff history. |
Com. Pi. Ler. #HateHard |
This quadrennial debate is always so much fun. I view it as a matter of Class. High Class, Low Class, No Class, etc.
Look at LeBron....a more decorated, accomplished player than any of the women in this discussion. He had The Class to NOT take a spot on the American roster. He's been there/done that quite enough....let others get their shot.
But nope....USA women's Old Hag division must go for the self-aggrandizement of being in their 5th Olympics. No Class. Oh, sure....they're good enough to compete, but NOT good enough -- gracious enough -- to say, "Yeah, we've done it. The experience was grand and glorious. New Kids? Step UP!". With Geno being the decades-long godfather in that hot mess of egotism (college coach, national coach, and now on the board) they were shoo-ins. Swin Cash over Rebekkah Brunson. Oh, yeah. Screw Becky Hammon. And now Napheesa (who IS good, but hasn't paid the dues Nneka has) get's the nod over Nneka. (remind me again....who was Napheesa's coach???)  
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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Location: London
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| Posted: 06/24/21 12:03 am ::: |
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| And a lot of the superstars used to take weeks off at a time to come back for specific camps, but it was always hard to get everyone free at the same time. Yes, true. Feel free to move on from that one sentence in my reply at any stage. The primary point continues to be that Of course it's partly for the cash, but it's also because they get sick of waiting. Also Vandersloot was one of various options at point guard being thrown around as the Bird/Whalen successor when she signed up to play for Hungary instead. This was before she was the assist machine that she's become in the last few years. There was no definitive indication or consensus belief that she was next in line - she was one option among several. So she gave up that possibility. As Nneka Ogwumike's just illustrated, there are few certainties with USA Basketball, unless you're in a very, very small group at the top. |
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 06/24/21 12:30 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| And a lot of the superstars used to take weeks off at a time to come back for specific camps, but it was always hard to get everyone free at the same time. Yes, true. Feel free to move on from that one sentence in my reply at any stage. The primary point continues to be that Of course it's partly for the cash, but it's also because they get sick of waiting. Also Vandersloot was one of various options at point guard being thrown around as the Bird/Whalen successor when she signed up to play for Hungary instead. This was before she was the assist machine that she's become in the last few years. There was no definitive indication or consensus belief that she was next in line - she was one option among several. So she gave up that possibility. As Nneka Ogwumike's just illustrated, there are few certainties with USA Basketball, unless you're in a very, very small group at the top. |
I have no problem with a player like Sloot choosing cash (millions) over a possible (I say likely) future USA roster spot, but, give me a break: "signed up to play for Hungary instead???? As noted, Hungary had no shot. She did it for the cash. At least Hammon explained her Russian passport with a desire for the Olympic experience:https://www.espn.com/olympics/summer08/columns/story?id=3530332 No such pretense with Sloot, and your twisting attempts to change this ("partly for the cash".... Yeah right) are laughably wrong. Going further, there is a long history of USA roster disappointments; it goes with the territory. Check out who got dumped in 2000:https://apnews.com/article/84b0818674141e5ea1046dd2b5bc6782
They chose Kara Wolters Ruthie Bolton, Nikki McCray, and 36 yr old Teresa Edwards over Tina Thompson, Nykesha Sales, Azzi et al. Those roster cuts make Neka (who just is not as good as the other 5 front liners, and lacks Collier's perimeter skills) far less egregious.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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Location: London
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| Posted: 06/24/21 12:58 am ::: |
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| Yes, of course she was playing for Hungary for the cash. No one said she was expecting to make the Olympics with Hungary. You'll never guess what I'm going to put here - Of course it's partly for the cash, but it's also because they get sick of waiting. I'm honestly not sure if you're intentionally trolling or incapable of reading comprehension. |
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 06/24/21 2:34 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Yes, of course she was playing for Hungary for the cash. No one said she was expecting to make the Olympics with Hungary. You'll never guess what I'm going to put here - Of course it's partly for the cash, but it's also because they get sick of waiting. I'm honestly not sure if you're intentionally trolling or incapable of reading comprehension. |
"Sick of waiting"???? You are becoming more preposterous. Sloot is a world class athlete who is supposed to have confidence in her own abilities. Did Tina Thompson get "sick of waiting" when her 2000 spot was taken by Kara Wolters? Please furnish any evidence beyond your imagination to prove this point, or just admit the obvious: She chose cash over the chance of going to the Olympics.
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Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland
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| Posted: 06/24/21 3:28 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Yes, of course she was playing for Hungary for the cash. No one said she was expecting to make the Olympics with Hungary. You'll never guess what I'm going to put here - Of course it's partly for the cash, but it's also because they get sick of waiting. I'm honestly not sure if you're intentionally trolling or incapable of reading comprehension. |
I think it was mainly about the cash because she would never play for a country who thinks her and her wife live together/marriage is illegal if she didnt get to play for a big team like UMMC and the salary that comes with it..
https://hungarianfreepress.com/2019/01/11/the-vandersloot-quigley-marriage-is-illegal-in-hungary/
When was the last time that Sloot or Allie played for them? Does anyone know?
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"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: New York
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| Posted: 06/24/21 8:11 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| Davis4632 wrote: |
| I would take Bird in that situation. I also remember the Storm post Jackson pre Stewart years too. |
Oh, you mean, when the Compiler averaged what was, until last year, career lows in scoring, on a career-worst shooting percentage, and near-career lows in assists, and the Storm were trash? |
Are u serious? Calling Bird a "compiler" overlooks the large # of huge plays in her admittedly long career. A quick review would include the 14 points in last 6 minutes of 2018 Phx deciding game ; the game winning 3 in 2010 Phx semifinal (preceded by block on Johnson, and bounce pass to Cash); the game winner at buzzer in Game 1 finals vs Atlanta; the steal vs Tolliver last 5 seconds in game 2 2018 Finals. There are plenty more during regular seasons. Sloot is a great pg, but she has ZERO of these kind of plays, and her chance in 2019 was one of biggest blunders in W plaoiff history. |
Com. Pi. Ler. #HateHard |
This quadrennial debate is always so much fun. I view it as a matter of Class. High Class, Low Class, No Class, etc.
Look at LeBron....a more decorated, accomplished player than any of the women in this discussion. He had The Class to NOT take a spot on the American roster. He's been there/done that quite enough....let others get their shot.
But nope....USA women's Old Hag division must go for the self-aggrandizement of being in their 5th Olympics. No Class. Oh, sure....they're good enough to compete, but NOT good enough -- gracious enough -- to say, "Yeah, we've done it. The experience was grand and glorious. New Kids? Step UP!". With Geno being the decades-long godfather in that hot mess of egotism (college coach, national coach, and now on the board) they were shoo-ins. Swin Cash over Rebekkah Brunson. Oh, yeah. Screw Becky Hammon. And now Napheesa (who IS good, but hasn't paid the dues Nneka has) get's the nod over Nneka. (remind me again....who was Napheesa's coach???) |
LeBron is the most arrogant man on the planet. He does everything to make LeBron the star of the show(see layup lines at his games). He isn't sitting out of the Olympics to give younger players a chance. He is sitting out because he doesn't want to play. Don't be confused.
In any other world, Bird and DT would be celebrated for their long careers, their greatness, and their commitment to playing for Team USA. But not here.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 06/24/21 9:45 am ::: |
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| On the planet? LeBron James isn't even the most arrogant man in the NBA.
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My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 06/24/21 9:53 am ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| "Sick of waiting"???? You are becoming more preposterous. Sloot is a world class athlete who is supposed to have confidence in her own abilities. Did Tina Thompson get "sick of waiting" when her 2000 spot was taken by Kara Wolters? Please furnish any evidence beyond your imagination to prove this point, or just admit the obvious: She chose cash over the chance of going to the Olympics. |
Lazy comparison, and unsurprisingly inaccurate. Tina Thompson had already represented USAB in 1995, 1996 and 1998. Playing for another country in 2000 wasn't an option for her, whether she was sick of waiting, or not. She was already locked in; it was "USWNT or nothing" for her.
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Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15729
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 06/24/21 10:38 am ::: |
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| ucbart wrote: |
| LeBron is the most arrogant man on the planet. He does everything to make LeBron the star of the show(see layup lines at his games). He isn't sitting out of the Olympics to give younger players a chance. He is sitting out because he doesn't want to play. Don't be confused. |
When one has that skill set, charisma, etc., to dominate in an unparalleled league like the NBA, they're entitled to a smidge of arrogance. He doesn't want to play in the Olympics? Certainly, or he'd do it....but there's every possibility part of that consideration is that there's an embarrassment of talent, and he's happy to let them do the winning.
| ucbart wrote: |
| In any other world, Bird and DT would be celebrated for their long careers, their greatness, and their commitment to playing for Team USA. But not here. |
Well, probably on Planet Storrs. Mind you, I don't call into question their 'greatness', but I'd question their motives past their 3rd Olympics....by now, it's Glory Greed. The Gold could easily be won without them, and other deserving players could experience the glory, too.
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Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 24344
Location: London
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| Posted: 06/24/21 10:47 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| ucbart wrote: |
| In any other world, Bird and DT would be celebrated for their long careers, their greatness, and their commitment to playing for Team USA. But not here. |
Well, probably on Planet Storrs. Mind you, I don't call into question their 'greatness', but I'd question their motives past their 3rd Olympics....by now, it's Glory Greed. The Gold could easily be won without them, and other deserving players could experience the glory, too. |
But people don't say that in, say swimming or gymnastics or whatever. If you're good enough to make it to five different Olympic Games, that person's generally considered a legend (especially if they're winning medals at all of them). And, if healthy, it's not like Bird and Taurasi are passengers being carried along for the ride to get them yet another medal. While they're still good enough to make it on merit and USA Basketball want to pick them, I don't really see why they should be required to remove themselves from consideration. |
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Iluvacc
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
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| Posted: 06/24/21 11:28 am ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| On the planet? LeBron James isn't even the most arrogant man in the NBA. |
THIS!!
Lebron has down more charitable work than any other athlete I can think of, especially in regards to helping underprivileged at risk youth. Which is far more than the likes of Jordan et al, accomplished. Even the great Kobe.
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SCook
Joined: 09 Oct 2013
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Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: 06/24/21 11:54 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| ucbart wrote: |
| In any other world, Bird and DT would be celebrated for their long careers, their greatness, and their commitment to playing for Team USA. But not here. |
Well, probably on Planet Storrs. Mind you, I don't call into question their 'greatness', but I'd question their motives past their 3rd Olympics....by now, it's Glory Greed. The Gold could easily be won without them, and other deserving players could experience the glory, too. |
But people don't say that in, say swimming or gymnastics or whatever. If you're good enough to make it to five different Olympic Games, that person's generally considered a legend (especially if they're winning medals at all of them). And, if healthy, it's not like Bird and Taurasi are passengers being carried along for the ride to get them yet another medal. While they're still good enough to make it on merit and USA Basketball want to pick them, I don't really see why they should be required to remove themselves from consideration. |
I agree. Seimone wanted a 4th and I'm sure she makes the team to get it if she doesn't retire. Syl is playing in her 4th and Tina in her 3rd. They are great players and if they are chosen and can still go. Welp. So be it.
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SCook
Joined: 09 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 06/24/21 11:54 am ::: |
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Can we not compare the WNBA Olympic aspirations and motivations to the NBA? I don't think the narratives about the men choosing not to play are as accurate. Many of the top NBA players stopped playing in the Olympics/ Fiba when Paul George had that freak injury.
I believe it's a different motivation too. Being an Olympian is a very important milestone for the women. It does not appear to be the overall case for the men anymore.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 06/24/21 12:18 pm ::: |
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LeBron was in the 2020 NBA Finals (he won) in October and then the next season started in December. That’s not a lot of rest. He had an injury filled season. He needs the rest.
He also has Space Jam 2 coming out July 16.
Speaking of bias, there’s a definite west coast bias for the players in the SJ2 movie. Nneka is supposedly even in it.
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 06/24/21 12:54 pm ::: |
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| SCook wrote: |
Can we not compare the WNBA Olympic aspirations and motivations to the NBA? I don't think the narratives about the men choosing not to play are as accurate. Many of the top NBA players stopped playing in the Olympics/ Fiba when Paul George had that freak injury.
I believe it's a different motivation too. Being an Olympian is a very important milestone for the women. It does not appear to be the overall case for the men anymore. |
I disagree with your quote about the WNBA Olympic aspirations and the NBA. IMO, it highlights the lack of critical analysis that the WNBA has in the media that has spread into the fandom.
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