| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 21928
Back to top |
 Posted: 06/02/21 7:49 pm ::: |
Reply  |
|
| (Splitting this discussion out into its own thread)
_________________
Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/02/21 10:08 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Luuuc wrote: |
| (Splitting this discussion out into its own thread) |
I'm not sure what this sentence means (or why it's in parentheses), but although the originating incident happened in a WNBA game, the thread in my opinion should be moved to Area 51.
There are lots of important political and cultural subjects to discuss in this world, but not on a basketball forum. There should be an ironclad rule on this website, as there is on the overwhelming majority of sports, hobby and entertainment websites, that there shall be no discussion of politics, religion or culturally divisive issues on the primary subject matter (basketball) forums. Those subjects are why Area 51-like subforums are established.
To not have a rule against politics, religion and culturally divisive subjects on the basketball subforums will drive away far more posters than it will attract. And RebKell, with all its other comorbidities, can't afford to have any more attrition or it will die. |
|
Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
Posts: 4701
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/02/21 10:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
| (Splitting this discussion out into its own thread) |
I'm not sure what this sentence means (or why it's in parentheses), but although the originating incident happened in a WNBA game, the thread in my opinion should be moved to Area 51.
There are lots of important political and cultural subjects to discuss in this world, but not on a basketball forum. There should be an ironclad rule on this website, as there is on the overwhelming majority of sports, hobby and entertainment websites, that there shall be no discussion of politics, religion or culturally divisive issues on the primary subject matter (basketball) forums. Those subjects are why Area 51-like subforums are established.
To not have a rule against politics, religion and culturally divisive subjects on the basketball subforums will drive away far more posters than it will attract. And RebKell, with all its other comorbidities, can't afford to have any more attrition or it will die. |
The parentheses are there to signify that what is being written within them is not part of the content/subject matter of the topic, but rather the topic's formatting. Luuuc did this for organizational/managerial purposes. If anyone wishes to continue the conversation further, it won't get mixed in with the posts detailing objective news in the thread from which it came from, and the posts talking about the subject will be easier to locate being in its own thread.
As to your opinion about it being moved to Area 51, I would disagree by saying that because it is centered around a WNBA experience, it should be allowed here. Imo Luuuc has been clear about wanting to keep things as unrestricted as possible, and I don't believe anyone here who has participated in this discussion thus far has expressed a desire to move it away from this Forum. It's possible that the discussion's participators have already exhausted the discussion anyway.
I'm also under the impression that RebKell's Junkie Boards is more likely to die out because of (annual?) software issues and/or the Boards not finding an heir to Reb himself once he no longer can continue keeping the site up when it goes down, rather than member attrition. I feel like the main group of posters we currently have is generally good-sized and reasonably omnipresent.
Also: Fun Fact! If you look on the Reb's Home Page towards the bottom, it says that the Most users ever online was 1010 on 10/15/20 10:36 pm, which was not too long ago. Obviously that number includes non-members, aka the typical lurkers (which is what I used to be for at least a year, maybe two), but I'd still say that this place is still goin' strong, and then some! 
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/02/21 10:59 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Stormeo wrote: |
| I'd still say that this place is still goin' strong, and then some! |
This is an interesting subject, which also belongs in Area 51, but I'd say you're wrong, dead wrong, Stormeo.
Area 51 is close to death. The WCBB forum is a desert compared to what it used to be years ago. Only the WNBA forums are somewhat lively, but the volume of words comes from about five handfuls of posters. Finally, just look at how the annual number of new members has continuously dropped over the past decade while scores of once highly contributing posters have disappeared.
Whatever the philosophy of attracting posters has been from whomever the moderators and administrators have been here for the past decade, it's been progressively less than successful.
And for every poster who wants to pontificate about societal racism in basketball threads, I suspect at least 25 actual or potential basketball contributors are turned off, or away, by the prospect.
I'm done. Area 51, where are you when we need you? |
|
undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
Posts: 2864
Back to top |
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/02/21 11:23 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Stormeo wrote: |
As to your opinion about it being moved to Area 51, I would disagree by saying that because it is centered around a WNBA experience, it should be allowed here. Imo Luuuc has been clear about wanting to keep things as unrestricted as possible, and I don't believe anyone here who has participated in this discussion thus far has expressed a desire to move it away from this Forum. It's possible that the discussion's participators have already exhausted the discussion anyway.
I'm also under the impression that RebKell's Junkie Boards is more likely to die out because of (annual?) software issues and/or the Boards not finding an heir to Reb himself once he no longer can continue keeping the site up when it goes down, rather than member attrition. I feel like the main group of posters we currently have is generally good-sized and reasonably omnipresent.
Also: Fun Fact! If you look on the Reb's Home Page towards the bottom, it says that the Most users ever online was 1010 on 10/15/20 10:36 pm, which was not too long ago. Obviously that number includes non-members, aka the typical lurkers (which is what I used to be for at least a year, maybe two), but I'd still say that this place is still goin' strong, and then some! |
Thank you, Stormeo. And you, too, undersized_post. Completely with both of you. I don't want to see this thread hijacked. And I've always found the view that politics should be kept out of sports discussions to be absurd and tedious. It's especially ironic when applied to the WNBA, given the racism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia that these talented athletes face and their remarkable political activism.
Oh, Stormeo--so glad you are no longer lurking!!! And undersized_post--great to have you with us. At age 74, I very much appreciate living at a time when an increasing number of athletes, members of the sports media, and fans want to look at and discuss issues of social justice inside and outside the sports world. I find that wonderful.
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 21928
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/02/21 11:50 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Stormeo wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
| (Splitting this discussion out into its own thread) |
I'm not sure what this sentence means (or why it's in parentheses) |
The parentheses are there to signify that what is being written within them is not part of the content/subject matter of the topic, but rather the topic's formatting. Luuuc did this for organizational/managerial purposes. If anyone wishes to continue the conversation further, it won't get mixed in with the posts detailing objective news in the thread from which it came from, and the posts talking about the subject will be easier to locate being in its own thread. |
Correct.
I pulled this selection of existing posts from the Chicago Sky thread and made a new thread from them. Normally I would have been ok with them staying where they were, but with all the roster stuff going down there are now 2 overlapping conversations. This one seemed like the natural one to separate, so my post in parentheses was meant to explain why there was suddenly a new thread here that was already 2 pages long.
Given that the incident happened during a WNBA game between a WNBA coach and a WNBA ref, I have zero doubt that it is of interest to WNBA fans (most of whom don't go near Area 51), and as evidence I submit the 50+ posts above.
As a bonus, people who don't like social issues mixed in with their basketball can now easily avoid this topic while still being free to keep up with what James Wade is up to and what Rock Hard thinks of it, in the Chicago Sky 2021 thread.
_________________
Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
|
Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 21928
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/03/21 12:47 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Today more than ever it is impossible to cut a clean line between the WNBA and social issues. Every communication we get from the WNBA implies that they wouldn't want us to anyway.
There are scenarios where "take it to Area 51" might be necessary but I don't feel that this is one of them atm. (it is indeed a bit like quarantine there in that it is cut off from interaction with most of the community)
This is an important issue that is intrinsically intertwined with the WNBA and I'm happy for people to talk about it - actually I encourage people to talk about it - as long as it is done with respect and good intentions.
Part of me wants to chip in a little as well, but most of me thinks it's better that I just shut up and listen to people with a lot more experience and a lot more at stake in this issue than I have.
_________________
Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
|
|
Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
Posts: 4701
Back to top |
|
ChiSky54
Joined: 19 Jun 2019
Posts: 667
Location: Chicago
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/03/21 11:43 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I appreciate the splitting of this into a separate thread and agree that that is the best way to handle the topic(s) at hand.
There are many layers to this thing and it seems that many have been touched upon during the discussion.
Nothing is resolved, but people have a place to say their piece.
_________________
There is nothing new under the sun.
|
|
MuneravenMN
Champion Tipster
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 3990
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/03/21 12:40 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
The term "boy" is racist and has a long history of being racist. It's a way to diminish a Black man and make him less-than.
If that somehow came out of MY mouth in regard to a Black man, I'd apologize and apologize again and send him something in apology -- a manly gift card, I guess, lol (not sure what you send someone after being racist. Flowers? A fruit basket?).
And I'd feel terribly ashamed and wonder what the Hell was wrong in my brain.
Ref needs to apologize pronto.
_________________
Winning takes talent; to repeat takes character.
--John Wooden
|
|
MuneravenMN
Champion Tipster
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 3990
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/03/21 12:56 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| root_thing wrote: |
| undersized_post wrote: |
| johnjohnW wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| Accusing people of racism over minor matters, especially when it may not be true, is going to make the general public jaded and skeptical. Then they may not react vigorously when such charges are actually warranted. |
This. |
No, full stop. Just because it could have been worse doesn't make it OK. Like, what? Also, who tf are you to say when allegations of racism are "actually warranted"?
| Skyfan22 wrote: |
Y’all are a bunch of racists here. All the talking this board about being socially aware is obviously a bunch of bullshit. Calling him “boy” is not appropriate. Especially when considering the capacity in which the ref is serving. he is a paid person with control over the coaches behavior and the game. It is unsettling that someone with the power he has over the game and his position feels it is okay to call Wade boy. Furthermore, if the ref is ignorant to his word choice, than that falls in to the “I don’t see color” blindness, which is unacceptable.
Now, Calling a black man a crybaby when he is calling out racism is another disgusting attempt to restore the social structure of our white institutions. Seriously, check your own damn racism on this board before you go calling a complaint of racism petty.
I’ve seen the racism on this board before in discussing the GWH. All y’all wanted to pile on and defend the status quo. Someone explicitly called themselves not racist and proceeded to say that cheering for people of their own skin color over another skin tone is normal. Are you f***ing kidding?! I had to give up on the conversation then for my own sanity. I fully expect the same sort of rants following this post. But holy f***, take a deeper look at some of the shit yall are saying and own your racism. Then try to fix it. |
+1 |
OK folks, you want to go there? Let's go there. I'm Chinese-American. Twice this winter while walking down the street minding my own business, I was cursed at for being a "honky" by African-American men. Pretty blatantly racist as well as just plain ignorant. And every time I see a video about an anti-Asian attack, it seems like the assailant is black. Why is no one talking about that? The New York Times bends over backwards to refer to the assailants as mentally ill or homeless, but they can't bring themselves to mention that the perpetrators are black. So, you want to know when charges of racism are warranted? How about those incidents? And believe me, I've been called "chink" by black people many times in my life. But I don't make a big deal about it. There are a lot of battles in life, and you can't fight every one of them. You save your energy for the major events.
I keep seeing these arguments about referees and coaches being authority figures, suggesting they have great power over other people. However, professional sports is not like the real world or even amateur sports. Overall, WNBA players as a group probably have more clout than coaches, and the coaches are at least equal to the referees. And do we really think that the players and coaches don't say demeaning things to the referees? People say demeaning things to each other all the time. What do you think trash-talking is? But demeaning is not the same as racist. Do I think people should be saying demeaning things to each other? No. It's unfortunately a product of these times where civility seems to mean less and less. And yet, people also act increasingly more sensitive. My opinion is that everyone should be more careful about what they say. The referee was wrong, but maybe the best way to handle this was for Wade to speak to him after the game. We don't know what Wade was saying to the referee that might have angered him in the first place. The first attempt to settle things should have been between the two men. Unfortunately, another product of our times is to go public with every little grievance. |
Ah, the old "THAT group is racist, too, so they shouldn't be allowed to speak up about racism" argument. No and no. You speak up about ALL racism. Nobody gets a pass. Nobody gets to say "oh but my historical racism is worse than your's." Everybody speaks up no matter who the target is. That's how you crush this shit. It's all awful. It's all stupid.
And I am so sorry you have experienced insults like this, but that doesn't mean you get to tell someone else how to react when they are insulted.
When someone yells "dyke" or "lesbo" or other terms at me, I choose to keep walking and not confront it because I am old and female and would probably get hurt. But the queer people who choose to confront that stuff head-on have my full support. We all have to handle this stuff our own way and it is never easy for any of us.
_________________
Winning takes talent; to repeat takes character.
--John Wooden
|
|
tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9618
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/03/21 8:56 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Skyfan22 wrote: |
It’s exactly what I’m saying. A black person can be biased and can discriminate. But they cannot be racist as they don’t have the backing of the social and political machines to carry out their discrimination. Look at Obama, had the most powerful political position in the US and the machinery prevented him from instituting change in favor of minorities. |
What change was he prevented from doing in favor of legal American minorities? Was he calling for factories to inner cities and other poor area and not to China, Mexico or built in an America desert or rural field? Or calling for people in poor communities to be priority hired in the few new factories being built in low populated areas (where land is cheap)? Was he calling for American jobs for Americans and not millions of illegal aliens from Latin America? An end to immigration into a job-exported country until there is no unemployed and underemployed in America? Seems that he was just another modern corporate donor-class Democrat.
|
|
Skyfan22
Joined: 12 Aug 2013
Posts: 522
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/04/21 1:43 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| tfan wrote: |
| Skyfan22 wrote: |
It’s exactly what I’m saying. A black person can be biased and can discriminate. But they cannot be racist as they don’t have the backing of the social and political machines to carry out their discrimination. Look at Obama, had the most powerful political position in the US and the machinery prevented him from instituting change in favor of minorities. |
What change was he prevented from doing in favor of legal American minorities? Was he calling for factories to inner cities and other poor area and not to China, Mexico or built in an America desert or rural field? Or calling for people in poor communities to be priority hired in the few new factories being built in low populated areas (where land is cheap)? Was he calling for American jobs for Americans and not millions of illegal aliens from Latin America? An end to immigration into a job-exported country until there is no unemployed and underemployed in America? Seems that he was just another modern corporate donor-class Democrat. |
IMO he was too moderate. And the example could have been better. However, the level of obfuscation politics reached a dramatic high with him president. Mitch McConnel and the old white regime bet that Obama would be blamed for the stalemate in the 2016 elections. Despite the accomplishments of Pbama in a locked congress. The old white racism prevailed. A moron was elected despite 20 some allegations of sexual assault. Despite what anybody says for why they chose him it feels like a knee jerk response to the mere sniff of loss of white status. (Hell, it is my opinion that Obama whitewashed himself intentionally because he knew he’d offend even the liberals. A very clear indication of white power)
But since we are so determined to nitpick here rather than ponder foreign ideas there are countless other examples of white social and political power. Fuck this thread is one. A black man alleges the smallest act of racism and all the typical forces arise to restore power to the whites. The disgusting part is that it is on a forum that generally claims to be very supportive of the myriad issues of the WNBA players.
I keep posting here in hopes that some fans will decide to increase their effort at understanding and combating racism. The old definitions do not work. This instance is a perfect example. Isaac didn’t have to intentionally say a racist comment. The fact he did demonstrates he has likely not thought critically about racism or he likely would have avoided the use of the term.
For comparison, we can look to progress aim gender. In ‘92 when Anita Hill came forward to speak of sexual harassment of Clarenc Thomas, at least in my social circle at an alleged liberal arts college, the general nature of all she had to say was skepticism, disbelief and eye rolling. However, 8 years later at my first real job we had a firm sexual harassment policy in place. Nobody doubted it and we all were able to keep ourselves from being inappropriate. It just took a little active thinking.
|
|
Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18030
Location: Queens
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/04/21 10:56 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| {forgot what thread I was in, carry on if you must}
_________________
Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
|
|
Skyfan22
Joined: 12 Aug 2013
Posts: 522
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/05/21 11:33 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Queenie wrote: |
| {forgot what thread I was in, carry on if you must} |
Funny that we all can be so dismissive of racism. If it’s not gonna happen in a thread that alleges to support Black, women , gay/lesbian/bi and trans people then our world really is f***ed.
|
|
Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18030
Location: Queens
Back to top |
| Posted: 06/05/21 11:47 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| {forgot what thread I was in, carry on if you must} |
Funny that we all can be so dismissive of racism. If it’s not gonna happen in a thread that alleges to support Black, women , gay/lesbian/bi and trans people then our world really is f***ed. |
I wasn't being dismissive of racism, I thought I was still in the Sky thread and was attempting to re-rail the discussion to the team then realized that I was in the wrong thread. I mean, personally I think once the discussion started getting into what Obama should and shouldn't have done during his presidency, it should have headed for Area 51, but I'm not a mod anymore and can't order people to stay vaguely on topic.
_________________
Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
|
|
|
|
