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| Who Would Win Player of the Year today? |
| Paige Bueckers, UConn |
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14% |
[ 5 ] |
| Nia Cooke, South Carolina |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
| Elissa Cunane, NC State |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Dana Evans, Louisville |
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8% |
[ 3 ] |
| Rhyne Howard, Kentucky |
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29% |
[ 10 ] |
| Haley Jones, Stanford |
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20% |
[ 7 ] |
| Aari McDonald, Arizona |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Michaela Onyenwere, UCLA |
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11% |
[ 4 ] |
| Ashley Owusu, Maryland |
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2% |
[ 1 ] |
| NaLyssa Smith, Baylor |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Someone Else |
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8% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 34 |
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| Author |
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 861
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 Posted: 03/04/21 1:32 pm ::: |
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| ucbart wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Maybe someone already has said this, but freshman are not eligible for the Wade.
I don't think Boston or Haley Jones have done enough scoring this year to have earned any POY, plus it's harder for a soph to win than a junior or senior. Rhyne Howard is very good but somehow doesn't really float my boat as an elite player. Same with McDonald and Onyenware, both short at their positions. Naz Hillmon hasn't played that many games, but is a senior who scores lots of points.
There's no obvious standout to me, but I'd give the best chances to seniors Dana Evans and Naz Hillmon with Paige Bueckers having the best chance for non-Wade POY among the underclassmen, if only because she's clearly the best player on the #1 ranked team. Cutting against Bueckers is that her shooting and related value stats have fallen off the past four games or so.
While I think seniority and related politics will favor Evans over Bueckers and Caitlyn Clark, my eyes tell me both those frosh are actually better all-around guards than Evans right now. |
I expect Evans to win them because she is a senior, but I'm willing to bet that every WNBA GM would pick Bueckers/Clark as the 1 & 2 in the 2021 draft if they were eligible.
I'm a UCONN fan, yes, but to me, Paige should win NPOY. |
To me, since you're a UConn fan that's not saying much.UConn fans would propped KML up and she couldn't guard a parked car with four flat tires.
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: New York
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| Posted: 03/04/21 1:55 pm ::: |
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| Davis4632 wrote: |
| ucbart wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Maybe someone already has said this, but freshman are not eligible for the Wade.
I don't think Boston or Haley Jones have done enough scoring this year to have earned any POY, plus it's harder for a soph to win than a junior or senior. Rhyne Howard is very good but somehow doesn't really float my boat as an elite player. Same with McDonald and Onyenware, both short at their positions. Naz Hillmon hasn't played that many games, but is a senior who scores lots of points.
There's no obvious standout to me, but I'd give the best chances to seniors Dana Evans and Naz Hillmon with Paige Bueckers having the best chance for non-Wade POY among the underclassmen, if only because she's clearly the best player on the #1 ranked team. Cutting against Bueckers is that her shooting and related value stats have fallen off the past four games or so.
While I think seniority and related politics will favor Evans over Bueckers and Caitlyn Clark, my eyes tell me both those frosh are actually better all-around guards than Evans right now. |
I expect Evans to win them because she is a senior, but I'm willing to bet that every WNBA GM would pick Bueckers/Clark as the 1 & 2 in the 2021 draft if they were eligible.
I'm a UCONN fan, yes, but to me, Paige should win NPOY. |
To me, since you're a UConn fan that's not saying much.UConn fans would propped KML up and she couldn't guard a parked car with four flat tires. |
But KML also won the 2015 NC game for us, soooooo
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robertoclementeforever
Joined: 18 Dec 2020
Posts: 31
Location: Storrs, CT
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| Posted: 03/04/21 8:41 pm ::: undersized-post |
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Whether Clark has or doesn't have a "scorers mentality" is subjective. She is not, however, IMO, as adept a defender as Bueckers, who averages two and a half steals per game. Paige's assists will explode next year with Fudd and the top ranked class coming to Storrs. Paige lost a lot of assists feeding Williams, Westbrook and MuiL this season when they couldn't even make bunnies.
I think Clark is an Outstanding talent. But the fact remains that Iowa is unranked and may not make the Tournament. UConn is an elite Team; and ranked One, in no small measure to the unearthly ability Bueckers brings to the Game every day. I try to respect the game and try even harder not to be an obnoxious UConn fan (I'm actually a Buckeye living in CT), but when you break down Paige's game and skill set, she can only be compared to elite, professional WNBA and NBA talent.
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undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
Posts: 2864
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| Posted: 03/04/21 9:11 pm ::: Re: undersized-post |
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| robertoclementeforever wrote: |
Whether Clark has or doesn't have a "scorers mentality" is subjective. She is not, however, IMO, as adept a defender as Bueckers, who averages two and a half steals per game. Paige's assists will explode next year with Fudd and the top ranked class coming to Storrs. Paige lost a lot of assists feeding Williams, Westbrook and MuiL this season when they couldn't even make bunnies.
I think Clark is an Outstanding talent. But the fact remains that Iowa is unranked and may not make the Tournament. UConn is an elite Team; and ranked One, in no small measure to the unearthly ability Bueckers brings to the Game every day. I try to respect the game and try even harder not to be an obnoxious UConn fan (I'm actually a Buckeye living in CT), but when you break down Paige's game and skill set, she can only be compared to elite, professional WNBA and NBA talent. |
If you think Bueckers teammates' missed shots are holding back her assist numbers....you can say the exact same for Clark but even more so.
Definitely agree that Clark is not as good as a 1-on-1 defender as Bueckers, but it's more of a team problem with Iowa than just one player. Iowa's second line defense is a big weakness. Czinano (the Iowa center) -- despite her great hands and efficiency on the offense -- is not very quick, has zero shot-blocking presence, and is foul prone if she tries to do too much. So if a dribbler gets inside the paint, it's usually a foul or a layup. As a result the Iowa guards can't take too many chances on defense. UConn on the other hand has ONO inside to clean-up if the guards go for a steal and miss it.
Look at the stats from Iowa's early game against Drake, Northern Iowa, and Western Illinois--decent mid-major teams comparable to the competition UConn regularly plays against. Clark had 4, 3, and 3 steals in those games.
I'm not saying Clark should be POY or that Buckers isn't fantastic -- I'm just pointing out that these player to player comparisons are reductive because they leave out the context of the team they play on and the conference they play in.
p.s. Re: Iowa's tournament chances: Iowa has been receiving votes in both the AP and Coaches Poll all year, hasn't loss to a team not projected to make the field, and has 5 Q1 and two top-25 wins. I think they are safely in.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 03/05/21 12:04 am ::: |
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| undersized_post wrote: |
| How many more assists per game does Clark have to average for people to stop saying she only has a scorer's mentality? :roll: |
It's about a lot more than assists.
Clark leads the country with a Usage Rate of 38%. That means on 38% of Iowa's plays she either attempts a field goal, a foul shot, or commits a turnover. The average player has a Usage Rate of 20%. Paige Bueckers, in comparison, has a Usage Rate of 23%.
Cruder words for such a high Usage Rate would be "volume shooter", "chucker" or "ball hog". I wouldn't use those words because I believe Iowa's offense is deliberately and intelligently built around Clark's superlative shooting and passing abilities, rather than any personal selfishness on her part. |
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undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
Posts: 2864
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 03/05/21 12:54 am ::: |
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| undersized_post wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| undersized_post wrote: |
| How many more assists per game does Clark have to average for people to stop saying she only has a scorer's mentality? :roll: |
It's about a lot more than assists.
Clark leads the country with a Usage Rate of 38%. That means on 38% of Iowa's plays she either attempts a field goal, a foul shot, or commits a turnover. The average player has a Usage Rate of 20%. Paige Bueckers, in comparison, has a Usage Rate of 23%.
Cruder words for such a high Usage Rate would be "volume shooter", "chucker" or "ball hog". I wouldn't use those words because I believe Iowa's offense is deliberately and intelligently built around Clark's superlative shooting and passing abilities, rather than any personal selfishness on her part. |
Where can I find data on more intricate stats like USG%? I've googled before but can't seem to find anything. |
I use Her Hoop Stats, which costs $20 per year. Natstat.com also has advanced player and team statistics (sometimes called sabermetrics), but costs more and seems less user friendly to me.
To sort Usage Rate for all players in D1, I put in a qualifier that players must have played an average of least 12 minutes per game. Otherwise, for many stats, you can get distorted numbers for end-of-bench scrubs. HHS allows sorting by many and multiple criteria.
I've still got Bueckers and Clark on my five player AA team. |
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: New York
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| Posted: 03/05/21 9:12 am ::: |
Reply |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| undersized_post wrote: |
How many more assists per game does Clark have to average for people to stop saying she only has a scorer's mentality?  |
It's about a lot more than assists.
Clark leads the country with a Usage Rate of 38%. That means on 38% of Iowa's plays she either attempts a field goal, a foul shot, or commits a turnover. The average player has a Usage Rate of 20%. Paige Bueckers, in comparison, has a Usage Rate of 23%.
Cruder words for such a high Usage Rate would be "volume shooter", "chucker" or "ball hog". I wouldn't use those words because I believe Iowa's offense is deliberately and intelligently built around Clark's superlative shooting and passing abilities, rather than any personal selfishness on her part. |
I've watched Clark several times and I would never label her a "chucker" or "ball hog." I too, think the Iowa offense is run for her to take that many shots. She takes great shots and....she makes a lot of them. If she had top-10 talent around her, I don't think she would score that many points. Look at Plum at Washington. She had some good talent, certainly not WNBA talent and she had to score that much. I never thought she was a ball hog either. I thought she did what her coach asked of her and she did what her team needed her to do for them to win.
I hate how we get into trashing one to lift up the other. To me, if Dana Evans wasn't having a fantastic season, there would be two freshman guards as AP 1st Team AA.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11148
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| Posted: 03/05/21 11:01 am ::: |
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I would agree that Clark is not a "chucker" -- but her defensive problems are, for the most part, unrelated to Iowa's scheme or other players.
She is fundamentally unsound (watch her close out some time) and doesn't work hard enough.
All of that could, and hopefully will, change, as she could be an adequate defender if she puts the time in. Right now, though, it's not pretty ...
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 03/05/21 12:20 pm ::: |
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Caitlyn Clark's 37.9%, as of now, is the 7th highest Usage Rate ever recorded among all D1 players from 2016 to 2021, which is all the seasons in Her Hoop Stats. The six players ahead of her were from mid-major schools.
Both Chennedy Carter and Aari McDonald were 37.4% in 2019.
Kelsey Plum was 37.0% in 2016.
Jessica Shepard was 36.7% at Nebraska in 2017.
Rhyne Howard was 35.9% in 2020.
Rachel Banham was 35.8% in 2016
Over that same six year period, Caitlyn Clark's current Usage Rate is the highest ever recorded for any freshman in all of D1. |
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
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