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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 10:32 am    ::: Would women's basketball be taken more seriously if... Reply Reply with quote

Lots of discussion on here lately involving different aspects of collegiate women's basketball. The NCAA clearly has work to do on their end in terms of inequity, but would the general populous take women's basketball more seriously if more of the rules were in line with the men's, in particular:

1. using the same size ball. Does using a smaller, lighter one create a belief that women are more frail and weak?
2. using the same 3-point line. Same questions raised as above.
3. halves instead of quarters. Do the women need a couple of extra, extended breaks between game action?
4. advancing the ball on a timeout into the frontcourt. Do women need extra help to get the ball up the floor?

Those are some of the bigger rules differences that keep getting mentioned to me from friends, co-workers, family, etc when these types of discussions come about in regards to basketball. Inevitably, they tend to happen this time of year, every year and rarely outside of March/April.

Anyway, with all the talk going on in various threads on this board, I thought I would just create this thread in regards to those rules that are the most strikingly obvious differences between the 2 games.

I know in recent years women's basketball rules were adjusted to mirror the men when it comes to the 10-second backcourt violation, the closely guarded rule (6 ft vs 3 ft), the restricted area in the paint, among others.

Should the rules for women's basketball be the same as the men, from top to bottom?


pilight



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 10:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The people who don't take it seriously are not going to be swayed by any of that.

One thing, though...

Quote:
halves instead of quarters. Do the women need a couple of extra, extended breaks between game action?


Playing quarters means fewer breaks, not more. Playing halves means four media breaks (16, 12, 8, and 4 minutes left in the half). Playing quarters means three (middle of each quarter plus between quarters).



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undersized_post



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 10:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Adding on to what Pilight said about halves, the NBA and WNBA use quarters, so NCAAM is really the odd one out. With regards to moving the ball up to half court after timeouts at the end of the game, NCAA is, again, the odd one out. NCAAW, NBA, and I think the WNBA all use that rule.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 11:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

undersized_post wrote:
Adding on to what Pilight said about halves, the NBA and WNBA use quarters, so NCAAM is really the odd one out. With regards to moving the ball up to half court after timeouts at the end of the game, NCAA is, again, the odd one out. NCAAW, NBA, and I think the WNBA all use that rule.


Right. Notice in my post I didn't say the women should adopt the men's rules. I happen to like the advancing of the ball. I am just re-iterating what I have heard from others during conversations.

My question was should both have the same set of rules.


undersized_post



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 11:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:
undersized_post wrote:
Adding on to what Pilight said about halves, the NBA and WNBA use quarters, so NCAAM is really the odd one out. With regards to moving the ball up to half court after timeouts at the end of the game, NCAA is, again, the odd one out. NCAAW, NBA, and I think the WNBA all use that rule.


Right. Notice in my post I didn't say the women should adopt the men's rules. I happen to like the advancing of the ball. I am just re-iterating what I have heard from others during conversations.

My question was should both have the same set of rules.


Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as directing my argument at you specifically---I'm directing it at the hypothetical other people you've heard these talking points from.

Should the games have the same rules? I'm personally in favor of all the same rules (with the men adapting to the women's rules in most cases). The only exception in my eyes is the size/weight of the ball, simply because too many women have trained their entire lives with the current ball.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 11:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The people who don't take it seriously are not going to be swayed by any of that.


And I don't think I fully agree with that. From some that I have had conversations with, both past and present, they seem to value women's basketball less because some of these types of rules appear to try and make it easier for women. That is not from me, that is from people I talk with. I try and educate them as we go along. Maybe this view point is far from the norm and hopefully so, but I do know that some of these rules make a difference. The 10-second rule, when enacted, actually helped shift an opinion or 2.

Anyway, I'm just curious if others have heard some of these types of things as well.


undersized_post



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 11:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

[quote="purduefanatic"]
pilight wrote:
From some that I have had conversations with, both past and present, they seem to value women's basketball less because some of these types of rules appear to try and make it easier for women. That is not from me, that is from people I talk with. I try and educate them as we go along.... Anyway, I'm just curious if others have heard some of these types of things as well.


At the risk of condescendingly assuming people's subconscious biases, in my experience, these people start with a sexist bias that women's sports are inherently lesser than men's. But they don't want to admit they are sexist, so when they try to explain why they don't value the women's game, they use arbitrary rule differences like these to justify their stance. These people aren't self aware enough to even recognize their internalized sexism, or if they are, would never admit it out loud.

That being said, I realize that if you were to say this to someone's face, it wouldn't go well and would probably further alienate them. Laughing


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 11:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

undersized_post wrote:
purduefanatic wrote:
undersized_post wrote:
Adding on to what Pilight said about halves, the NBA and WNBA use quarters, so NCAAM is really the odd one out. With regards to moving the ball up to half court after timeouts at the end of the game, NCAA is, again, the odd one out. NCAAW, NBA, and I think the WNBA all use that rule.


Right. Notice in my post I didn't say the women should adopt the men's rules. I happen to like the advancing of the ball. I am just re-iterating what I have heard from others during conversations.

My question was should both have the same set of rules.


Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as directing my argument at you specifically---I'm directing it at the hypothetical other people you've heard these talking points from.

Should the games have the same rules? I'm personally in favor of all the same rules (with the men adapting to the women's rules in most cases). The only exception in my eyes is the size/weight of the ball, simply because too many women have trained their entire lives with the current ball.


Gotcha and no worries. I honestly don't think it would take too long to adapt to the bigger basketball.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 11:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

[quote="undersized_post"]
purduefanatic wrote:
pilight wrote:
From some that I have had conversations with, both past and present, they seem to value women's basketball less because some of these types of rules appear to try and make it easier for women. That is not from me, that is from people I talk with. I try and educate them as we go along.... Anyway, I'm just curious if others have heard some of these types of things as well.


At the risk of condescendingly assuming people's subconscious biases, in my experience, these people start with a sexist bias that women's sports are inherently lesser than men's. But they don't want to admit they are sexist, so when they try to explain why they don't value the women's game, they use arbitrary rule differences like these to justify their stance. These people aren't self aware enough to even recognize their internalized sexism, or if they are, would never admit it out loud.

That being said, I realize that if you were to say this to someone's face, it wouldn't go well and would probably further alienate them. Laughing


Very true, there most likely is a bias. However, I think some of these rules (such as the lighter, smaller ball and closer 3-pt line) tend to validate in their mind that women can't handle the "real" game and because they are "weaker", it isn't real basketball. I completely disagree with that and sometimes things get heated, and maybe pilight is right in that nothing would change their minds. But, if all rules were equal, the arguments posed would become invalid.


undersized_post



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 11:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:
I honestly don't think it would take too long to adapt to the bigger basketball.


I'd be interested to hear what active players think about this---especially long range shooters.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 11:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've said this before but I personally like the bigger ball. It feels more solid and easier to handle. As far as shooting goes, if you're a shooter you can pick up either ball and shoot. It's just a natural adjustment that happens without much thought. I'm an old, out-of-shape fart but can easily shoot threes with either ball. I can understand having a smaller ball for children, but I think by Freshman year in HS everybody should use the same size.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 11:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
I've said this before but I personally like the bigger ball. It feels more solid and easier to handle. As far as shooting goes, if you're a shooter you can pick up either ball and shoot. It's just a natural adjustment that happens without much thought. I'm an old, out-of-shape fart but can easily shoot threes with either ball. I can understand having a smaller ball for children, but I think by Freshman year in HS everybody should use the same size.


Completely agree. It takes a few shots to adjust going either way, but then your body just kind of takes over. These women are plenty strong and talented enough to adapt pretty easily.

I just think the smaller ball helps to feed into the mentality that the women aren't as good as the men. The reasons for the smaller ball are that it fits into the hoop easier which in turn should result in more points being scored because it's easier and women's hands tend to be smaller than men's. Both of those help to lead to the perception that women need things made easier for them, thus women's basketball is lesser than their men's counterparts. I don't subscribe to this, but it's out there. I can't be the only one that has been told this or hears these sorts of comments.


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 12:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The women were playing with a shot clock 15 years before the men. It took the men until 2014 to finally get to a 30 second clock. The rules are adapted separately by both the men and women to get what they believe is the best for their game. I would like a single basic standard (preferably the FIBA rules) but I believe there will always be some level of tweaking for every league, just as there is in every other sport. Making those tweaks separate for the men and women makes sense. The women could have the same rules as the men but it would likely make the game less enjoyable.

There will always be people that try to denigrate the women's game for any number of reasons. In the end the women should adapt their rules to make what they think is the best game possible.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 12:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The bigger ball is not a problem once you spend much time -- I used to play a lot and would go back and forth between the women's and men's balls, and it really made no difference. (And though I was not a particularly good basketball player, my primary skill was shooting, so I would have noticed a difference.)



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huskiemaniac



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 1:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

my preferences:

men's ball.

4 quarters (wasn't sure going into the change, now I can't stand 20-min halves.)

men's 3pt line.

10 seconds (finally)

Bring back the 1-1. I say count the fouls per half as was done before.

I'm still 50/50 re: TO and advance. I understand and appreciate the purpose, but still am not sure offense should be given an advantage.


pilight



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 1:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The smaller ball does not help with shooting. This has been demonstrated in controlled studies...

http://www.johk.pl/files/114podmenik.pdf

...and in practice. Scoring and FG% in WCBB have gone downhill steadily since the adoption of the smaller ball. In 1983-84, the last year with the larger ball, teams averaged 69.7 ppg and shot 44% from the floor. This year it was 65.0 ppg and 40.4% from the floor.

Even in the immediate aftermath of the switch there was no real change in FG%

1983-84 44.0 (last season with larger ball)
1984-85 43.9
1985-86 44.2
1986-87 43.9



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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 1:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I knew there was a rule I was forgetting...the one and one. Totally agree that should be brought back. I honestly can't even recall the reasoning behind that switch.


undersized_post



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 1:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

huskiemaniac wrote:

Bring back the 1-1. I say count the fouls per half as was done before.

I'm still 50/50 re: TO and advance. I understand and appreciate the purpose, but still am not sure offense should be given an advantage.


I'm in 110% agreement with these sentiments.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 1:55 pm    ::: Re: Would women's basketball be taken more seriously if... Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:
would the general populous take women's basketball more seriously if more of the rules were in line with the men's


My opinion on this specific question is: absolutely not.

The general populace -- even the general populace of sports fans -- don't take female basketball more seriously simply because they find it comparatively uninteresting, unexciting or affirmatively boring with respect to the many other sports and entertainment offerings that are available for their very limited spare time to watch sports/entertainments.

Females in the general populace are probably less interested in female basketball than males are.

There are WNBA fans who have no interest in watching WCBB.

And I challenge confirmed WCBB fans, such as RebKellians, to go watch some high school girl's (or boy's) basketball, especially at the junior high level. I bet the vast majority won't take that level of basketball seriously because they will find it uninteresting, unexciting or affirmatively boring with respect to the sports/entertainment alternatives and time they have available.

Technical tweaks to a few rules will not have any effect on these opinions, tastes and preferences.
undersized_post



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 2:01 pm    ::: Re: Would women's basketball be taken more seriously if... Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:

There are WNBA fans who have no interest in watching WCBB.

And I challenge confirmed WCBB fans, such as RebKellians, to go watch some high school girl's (or boy's) basketball, especially at the junior high level. I bet the vast majority won't take that level of basketball seriously because they will find it uninteresting, unexciting or affirmatively boring with respect to the sports/entertainment alternatives and time they have available.

Technical tweaks to a few rules will not have any effect on these opinions, tastes and preferences.


For what it's worth, I've watched quite a few high school games this year (on YouTube). Usually to watch the top high school recruits, or my own schools' recruits in action to see their playing style and potential. I also watch some of the schools around where I grew up and used to play, for sentimental reasons.

I don't mind the slower pace or lower skill level, but what drives me nuts is when some states don't play with a shot clock. A team can be ahead by just a few possessions and spend the entire 4th quarter running time off the clock. That's not basketball!!!


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 2:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

UP, the relevant question, parallel to the OP's, isn't whether you (or I, with a YouTube channel formerly devoted to it) are serious fans of GHSBB, but whether the general populace would become more serious about GHSBB it if it had the same rules as BHSBB. My answer is the same: No.
purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 2:14 pm    ::: Re: Would women's basketball be taken more seriously if... Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
There are WNBA fans who have no interest in watching WCBB.


And I am the opposite, watch WCBB but don't watch the WNBA. Though to be fair, I watch college sports for the most part with the only real pro sport I watch nowadays being Premier League Soccer. The only NFL game I watched this year was the Super Bowl (thanks to Tom Brady) and have yet to watch any NBA games.


osubeavers



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 2:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The people who don't take it seriously are not going to be swayed by any of that.

One thing, though...

Quote:
halves instead of quarters. Do the women need a couple of extra, extended breaks between game action?


Playing quarters means fewer breaks, not more. Playing halves means four media breaks (16, 12, 8, and 4 minutes left in the half). Playing quarters means three (middle of each quarter plus between quarters).


I believe all of pro and amateur basketball worldwide plays 4 quarters with the single exception being US men’s college basketball.



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osubeavers



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 2:34 pm    ::: Re: Would women's basketball be taken more seriously if... Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:
Lots of discussion on here lately involving different aspects of collegiate women's basketball. The NCAA clearly has work to do on their end in terms of inequity, but would the general populous take women's basketball more seriously if more of the rules were in line with the men's, in particular:

1. using the same size ball. Does using a smaller, lighter one create a belief that women are more frail and weak?
2. using the same 3-point line. Same questions raised as above.
3. halves instead of quarters. Do the women need a couple of extra, extended breaks between game action?
4. advancing the ball on a timeout into the frontcourt. Do women need extra help to get the ball up the floor?

Those are some of the bigger rules differences that keep getting mentioned to me from friends, co-workers, family, etc when these types of discussions come about in regards to basketball. Inevitably, they tend to happen this time of year, every year and rarely outside of March/April.

Anyway, with all the talk going on in various threads on this board, I thought I would just create this thread in regards to those rules that are the most strikingly obvious differences between the 2 games.

I know in recent years women's basketball rules were adjusted to mirror the men when it comes to the 10-second backcourt violation, the closely guarded rule (6 ft vs 3 ft), the restricted area in the paint, among others.

Should the rules for women's basketball be the same as the men, from top to bottom?


While we’re doing this let’s get rid of softball and make everyone play NCAA baseball rules, including ballpark dimensions.

And in gymnastics get rid of balance beam and bars and add in rings, high bar, (men’s) parallel bars and pommel horse.



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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 04/05/21 2:43 pm    ::: Re: Would women's basketball be taken more seriously if... Reply Reply with quote

osubeavers wrote:
purduefanatic wrote:
Lots of discussion on here lately involving different aspects of collegiate women's basketball. The NCAA clearly has work to do on their end in terms of inequity, but would the general populous take women's basketball more seriously if more of the rules were in line with the men's, in particular:

1. using the same size ball. Does using a smaller, lighter one create a belief that women are more frail and weak?
2. using the same 3-point line. Same questions raised as above.
3. halves instead of quarters. Do the women need a couple of extra, extended breaks between game action?
4. advancing the ball on a timeout into the frontcourt. Do women need extra help to get the ball up the floor?

Those are some of the bigger rules differences that keep getting mentioned to me from friends, co-workers, family, etc when these types of discussions come about in regards to basketball. Inevitably, they tend to happen this time of year, every year and rarely outside of March/April.

Anyway, with all the talk going on in various threads on this board, I thought I would just create this thread in regards to those rules that are the most strikingly obvious differences between the 2 games.

I know in recent years women's basketball rules were adjusted to mirror the men when it comes to the 10-second backcourt violation, the closely guarded rule (6 ft vs 3 ft), the restricted area in the paint, among others.

Should the rules for women's basketball be the same as the men, from top to bottom?


While we’re doing this let’s get rid of softball and make everyone play NCAA baseball rules, including ballpark dimensions.


Interesting take. Let's see, do people try and say softball and baseball are the same sport? Nope. They are viewed as different sports, which they are. The ball is different, the base path length is different, the pitcher's mound is closer to the plate, ballpark dimensions are different, etc.

However, the point of this thread was that there is an ongoing issue with women's college basketball basically being treated differently than its' men's college basketball counterpart. From the inequity to facilities provided at the NCAA's to TV contract, from salaries of coaches to rules and everything in between. Basically, it is being treated like an afterthought.

You do kind of raise an excellent question though with your comment: Should women's college basketball be considered a different game than their men's counterpart? You brought up 2 sports that are similar but not viewed as the same. With the difference in equipment (ball size), playing surface (3 pt distance), game structure (quarters vs halves), should they even be compared at all?

And yes, I am asking that tongue-in-cheek.


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