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TigerVol



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PostPosted: 07/16/21 3:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
TigerVol wrote:
There is no cut and dry here so people will evaluate based on their experience and perceptions.

It is possible for a person to be a jerk or selfish or drama filled with no mental health issues.

It is possible or a person to be a jerk or selfish or drama filled apart from their mental health issues.

It is possible for a person's jerkiness or selfishness or drama to be fueled by mental health issues.

When behavior - even repeated - seems out of character I think people are more empathetic. We should be where mental health is concerned. But that doesn't mean someone with mental health issues gets a free pass on all behavior.


I don't dispute whether Cambage is a diva, selfish, or even a "jerk" (although I wouldn't characterize her as such). To the contrary, Cambage's personality is in the Top Two list of reasons why I like her so much (and it's not Number Two). I am of the personal opinion that women's basketball, in general, and the WNBA, in particular, would be more interesting if there were more players like Cambage. My issue, and my favorite podcaster crystalized this point for me, years ago, most people's empathy only goes as far as, "Do I like this person, or not?" Which, in and of itself, is not something that I object to because, as I said, we're human, and most of us are not "pure" empaths. It becomes problematic for me when people talk cash shit about being empathetic, until it's someone they don't like; then all the rationalizations come out, for why this person who says that they're going through something, isn't really going through something.

My whole #HateHard thing might seem like a stupid message board gimmick, but at least I've never tried to deceive anybody about an perceived lack of bias.


I can understand that.

First my categories were general not across the board specific to Liz.

You acknowledge your bias toward the diva behavior (I've seen you note that before - up front as you said).

I am biased against the diva/drama behavior in... Well... Life.in life it makes me tired. It detracts from sport for me in the same way it adds to the sport for you. Different preferences.

I am sure it influences my read of this situation and many others though I try to at least acknowledge the Grey...likely with varying degrees of success.

As I said I believe she has serious issues that would make her olympic play difficult in a bubble. I also believe she is a diva who with a history. I wouldn't put it past her to blur the two lines for her own benefit.

Did she here? I don't know but my default with her in blurry situations is always a bit of a side eye. Would have been a hard eye roll before she spoke of her mental health challenges.



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huskiemaniac



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PostPosted: 07/16/21 5:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

TigerVol wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
TigerVol wrote:
There is no cut and dry here so people will evaluate based on their experience and perceptions.

It is possible for a person to be a jerk or selfish or drama filled with no mental health issues.

It is possible or a person to be a jerk or selfish or drama filled apart from their mental health issues.

It is possible for a person's jerkiness or selfishness or drama to be fueled by mental health issues.

When behavior - even repeated - seems out of character I think people are more empathetic. We should be where mental health is concerned. But that doesn't mean someone with mental health issues gets a free pass on all behavior.


I don't dispute whether Cambage is a diva, selfish, or even a "jerk" (although I wouldn't characterize her as such). To the contrary, Cambage's personality is in the Top Two list of reasons why I like her so much (and it's not Number Two). I am of the personal opinion that women's basketball, in general, and the WNBA, in particular, would be more interesting if there were more players like Cambage. My issue, and my favorite podcaster crystalized this point for me, years ago, most people's empathy only goes as far as, "Do I like this person, or not?" Which, in and of itself, is not something that I object to because, as I said, we're human, and most of us are not "pure" empaths. It becomes problematic for me when people talk cash shit about being empathetic, until it's someone they don't like; then all the rationalizations come out, for why this person who says that they're going through something, isn't really going through something.

My whole #HateHard thing might seem like a stupid message board gimmick, but at least I've never tried to deceive anybody about an perceived lack of bias.


I can understand that.

First my categories were general not across the board specific to Liz.

You acknowledge your bias toward the diva behavior (I've seen you note that before - up front as you said).

I am biased against the diva/drama behavior in... Well... Life.in life it makes me tired. It detracts from sport for me in the same way it adds to the sport for you. Different preferences.

I am sure it influences my read of this situation and many others though I try to at least acknowledge the Grey...likely with varying degrees of success.

As I said I believe she has serious issues that would make her olympic play difficult in a bubble. I also believe she is a diva who with a history. I wouldn't put it past her to blur the two lines for her own benefit.

Did she here? I don't know but my default with her in blurry situations is always a bit of a side eye. Would have been a hard eye roll before she spoke of her mental health challenges.



Thanks for saving me the time.


Silky Johnson



Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: 07/16/21 6:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

TigerVol wrote:
... As I said I believe she has serious issues that would make her olympic play difficult in a bubble. I also believe she is a diva who with a history. I wouldn't put it past her to blur the two lines for her own benefit.

Did she here? I don't know but my default with her in blurry situations is always a bit of a side eye. Would have been a hard eye roll before she spoke of her mental health challenges.


Which, again, would be fine, in an antiseptic, classroom-type discussion. But, in application, that "side eye" mentality leads to people being unfairly accused of minimizing or undermining legitimate mental health issues.

Like, I can understand if the last four years has led to people not wanting to give a raging narcissist the benefit of the doubt, but let's not pretend like there isn't an actual track record for the person in question having legitimately dealt with some things.



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Tally24



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PostPosted: 07/16/21 7:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My heart goes out to Liz. I love her big personality and the added depth she adds to the league. I know she was pretty pumped about playing in the games. If I recall, she even got a set of Olympic Rings tattoo. I hope she takes care of herself and does what she needs to do.
Luuuc
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PostPosted: 07/16/21 7:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nothing Liz said today seemed fake to me.
I feel bad for her and hope the Olympic break recharges her batteries.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/16/21 8:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I empathize with Liz. I get that it’s hard to be an emotionally charged person and also suffer from issues affecting your mental health. However, it would be nice if she recognized that other people may also have situations and that her being less confrontational might help too. And again, I’m not minimizing anyone’s mental health or those issues in general. They don’t, however, give you unlimited license to be confrontational either.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 07/16/21 9:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I empathize with Liz. I get that it’s hard to be an emotionally charged person and also suffer from issues affecting your mental health. However, it would be nice if she recognized that other people may also have situations and that her being less confrontational might help too. And again, I’m not minimizing anyone’s mental health or those issues in general. They don’t, however, give you unlimited license to be confrontational either.


This is a fair take. We don't quite see eye-to-eye on the confrontation part, but I'll stipulate that this is a fair take. And, if the consensus opinion had been closer to this, I probably wouldn't have spent a day, and two pages worth of posts, going "to war" with the rest of rebkell.



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ThreeBall25



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 07/16/21 11:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
ThreeBall25 wrote:
Given her history of flakiness and always being involved in some sort of drama, why wouldn't people question her statement?? Seems pretty reasonable to me and not in an undermining mental health way.


#Drama

This is just a roundabout way of saying, "I'll believe that you have mental health issues, if I like you. Otherwise, I'll assume you're faking for sympathy."


Uh... not so much, but coming from the person who's (lame ass) persona is "hate hard" go ahead and keep popping off.


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 07/16/21 11:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wasn't waiting on your permission, hoss.



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PostPosted: 07/17/21 1:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Australia loathes Liz Cambage's confident demeanour, while the US embraces it
Liz Cambage is complex.
Similarly, the story of Liz Cambage's withdrawal from the Opals team a week out from the Tokyo Olympic Games is also complex.
By the time the Australian Olympic Committee released its statement confirming Australia's best female basketballer had withdrawn from the team because of deteriorating mental health, the rumour mill was already in overdrive.
Depending on who you believed, the most prominent stories doing the rounds were that Cambage had left the team hotel and not been sighted for days, she'd been involved in some on and off-court incidents that would see her expelled from the team or that the players could no longer play with her.
...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-17/the-complex-story-of-liz-cambage/100301644



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tfan



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PostPosted: 07/17/21 3:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

After Cambage said the incident was with a Nigerian player I was thinking that the US team never would have "launched an investigation" if Taurasi had done the same.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 07/17/21 11:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
Quote:
"Every athlete competing in the Olympic games should be at their mental and physical peak, and at the moment, I’m a long way from where I want and need to be. It’s no secret that in the past I’ve struggled with my mental health and recently I’ve been really worried about heading into a 'bubble' Olympics. No family. No friends. No fans. No support system outside of my team. It’s honestly terrifying for me. The past month I have been having panic attacks, not sleeping and not eating."


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2021/07/16/liz-cambage-withdraws-tokyo-olympics-bubble/7988487002/


The thing that stuck out to me here was the "no friends". I don't know the dynamic amongst the team, but normally I would think she would have at least one good friend among that lot. I would hope so anyway. But I understand that with her big personality, one good friend might not be sufficient for a two - three week stint even with all the digital communication available. I wish her well.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 07/17/21 3:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Ex-Ref wrote:
Quote:
"Every athlete competing in the Olympic games should be at their mental and physical peak, and at the moment, I’m a long way from where I want and need to be. It’s no secret that in the past I’ve struggled with my mental health and recently I’ve been really worried about heading into a 'bubble' Olympics. No family. No friends. No fans. No support system outside of my team. It’s honestly terrifying for me. The past month I have been having panic attacks, not sleeping and not eating."


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2021/07/16/liz-cambage-withdraws-tokyo-olympics-bubble/7988487002/


The thing that stuck out to me here was the "no friends". I don't know the dynamic amongst the team, but normally I would think she would have at least one good friend among that lot. I would hope so anyway. But I understand that with her big personality, one good friend might not be sufficient for a two - three week stint even with all the digital communication available. I wish her well.


After the things she's previously written about depression and anxiety, being unable to cope with the wubble last year, and feeling an inadequate level of support in Tokyo, I'm not surprised she withdrew. It's too bad it took an altercation with another team to bring this to a head but that's one indication that her support system wasn't working.

I hope she get the help she needs instead of more ridicule like she's received in some of the posts here.


Michelle89



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PostPosted: 07/17/21 4:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Ex-Ref wrote:
Quote:
"Every athlete competing in the Olympic games should be at their mental and physical peak, and at the moment, I’m a long way from where I want and need to be. It’s no secret that in the past I’ve struggled with my mental health and recently I’ve been really worried about heading into a 'bubble' Olympics. No family. No friends. No fans. No support system outside of my team. It’s honestly terrifying for me. The past month I have been having panic attacks, not sleeping and not eating."


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2021/07/16/liz-cambage-withdraws-tokyo-olympics-bubble/7988487002/


The thing that stuck out to me here was the "no friends". I don't know the dynamic amongst the team, but normally I would think she would have at least one good friend among that lot. I would hope so anyway. But I understand that with her big personality, one good friend might not be sufficient for a two - three week stint even with all the digital communication available. I wish her well.


She has friends on the team. Jenna and Cayla are very close to her and the others she has played with since childhood. But sometimes you need family and friends outside of basketbal and that world..



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Libra_Girl



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PostPosted: 07/17/21 4:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I believe Liz about how her mental health would have been negatively impacted by going to a bubble in Tokyo because she didn’t go to the wubble too. I also believe she said something to the Nigerian team that went past the line Chelsea Gray IG story, Diamond & Dev, Crystal L tweets seems to pointing to it if read between the lines.


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PostPosted: 07/18/21 12:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Liz has always done what's best for her. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I respect her for sticking to her guns and not doing something she didn't feel comfortable with just because she was expected to. Trying to live more like that myself.

This story is also legitimately microscopic considering the big picture here, which is that the Olympics just shouldn't be happening.



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blaase22



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PostPosted: 07/18/21 2:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The olympics should be happening and Cambage won’t be missed.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 07/18/21 9:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Looking at the individual sports, it's really hard to train in such a way that you peak right around the Olympics. Most of these athletes have now done it two years in a row. You also have sports like gymnastics where people often peak at a young age and are never as good again. And then there are the older athletes like 35-year-old Allyson Felix who won't be around in three years. Regardless of how other people feel, I'm pretty sure most athletes would be devastated if the Olympics were canceled.



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PostPosted: 07/18/21 11:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Looking at the individual sports, it's really hard to train in such a way that you peak right around the Olympics. Most of these athletes have now done it two years in a row. You also have sports like gymnastics where people often peak at a young age and are never as good again. And then there are the older athletes like 35-year-old Allyson Felix who won't be around in three years. Regardless of how other people feel, I'm pretty sure most athletes would be devastated if the Olympics were canceled.

I mean, as long as the athletes are happy. Never mind the survey that showed 80% of the citizens of the host country don't want the Olympics held there...



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 07/18/21 12:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:

I mean, as long as the athletes are happy. Never mind the survey that showed 80% of the citizens of the host country don't want the Olympics held there...



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 07/18/21 12:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Looking at the individual sports, it's really hard to train in such a way that you peak right around the Olympics. Most of these athletes have now done it two years in a row. You also have sports like gymnastics where people often peak at a young age and are never as good again. And then there are the older athletes like 35-year-old Allyson Felix who won't be around in three years. Regardless of how other people feel, I'm pretty sure most athletes would be devastated if the Olympics were canceled.

I mean, as long as the athletes are happy. Never mind the survey that showed 80% of the citizens of the host country don't want the Olympics held there...


In that case, we should just do away with the Olympics altogether because the citizens of the host cities almost never want the event.



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PostPosted: 07/18/21 12:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
justintyme wrote:
root_thing wrote:
Looking at the individual sports, it's really hard to train in such a way that you peak right around the Olympics. Most of these athletes have now done it two years in a row. You also have sports like gymnastics where people often peak at a young age and are never as good again. And then there are the older athletes like 35-year-old Allyson Felix who won't be around in three years. Regardless of how other people feel, I'm pretty sure most athletes would be devastated if the Olympics were canceled.

I mean, as long as the athletes are happy. Never mind the survey that showed 80% of the citizens of the host country don't want the Olympics held there...


In that case, we should just do away with the Olympics altogether because the citizens of the host cities almost never want the event.


I mean ... kind of ...


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 07/18/21 1:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
root_thing wrote:

In that case, we should just do away with the Olympics altogether because the citizens of the host cities almost never want the event.


I mean ... kind of ...


LOL, exactly. I feel like that proposal wouldn't play out, quite the way you think it would. Like, big " 'Oh yeah? Well, if you want to tear down statues, maybe we should take down the statue of this Democrat, too!' 'Aight, bet!' 'Wait, that's not what I meant!' " energy.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 07/18/21 6:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
root_thing wrote:

In that case, we should just do away with the Olympics altogether because the citizens of the host cities almost never want the event.


I mean ... kind of ...


LOL, exactly. I feel like that proposal wouldn't play out, quite the way you think it would. Like, big " 'Oh yeah? Well, if you want to tear down statues, maybe we should take down the statue of this Democrat, too!' 'Aight, bet!' 'Wait, that's not what I meant!' " energy.


I meant it exactly the way I said it. The Olympics lose money for pretty much every city that hosts. Aside from the money, the locals never want it because the event disrupts their lives. That's pretty much true for every major project or event that takes place in a big city. I know in NYC, people didn't want the Olympics when the Bloomberg Administration bid for it, nor do they want smaller events like political conventions. Similarly, neighborhoods never want major construction projects. That includes sports arenas -- look at all the objections to Barclays Center or Yankee Stadium at Hudson Yards years ago. And we all know what happened with Amazon. Sure, the ostensible reason was because Amazon is a crappy employer, but I think it had more to do with the local populace being afraid of development that would price them out of their own neighborhood. Certainly reasonable, but I don't think observing that communities don't want something necessarily provides much insight. From what I've seen, objecting is usually the default community position. So, the next question is whether these big events or big projects should exist. If so, when do the powers that be go ahead anyway, because "the people" will almost always say no?

As far as these particular Olympics go, I would have been fine with them being canceled months ago. But to do it now so close to the event would be really unfair to the athletes.



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PostPosted: 07/18/21 6:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I understood what you meant. My point was, cancel them, then. I don't consider the threat to get rid of the Olympics to be an actual threat. Or, alternatively, let the IOC buy an island somewhere, and let that become the full-time, permanent home of the Olympics.



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