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New York, Seattle, Phoenix, Minnesota, Dallas trades
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Who came out on top here?
New York
70%
 70%  [ 29 ]
Seattle
9%
 9%  [ 4 ]
Phoenix
12%
 12%  [ 5 ]
Minnesota
7%
 7%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 41

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J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 02/12/21 8:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It is not KLS going to Seattle that is the problem. KLS has a chance to do well in Seattle IMO. It is trading the #1 pick for her (especially when you consider that KLS before the trade was on the bubble in Dallas anyway)

Harris/Jefferson
Ogunbowale/Mabrey
Gray/Thorton/KLS
Sabally/Alarie/Gustafson
Harrison/NDour

pick 2, pick 5, pick 7

Even if Ndour doesn't play you have to cut two more from above to fit the first round picks in and Jefferson and Harrison have guaranteed contracts

I am not sure flipping PX's 1st round pick in 22 for MHH is going to be a very good look either

since you can technically include Talbot as part of the Howard trade considering Seattle basically got her from NY for an UFA they could have just signed the end result is

package 1
#1 pick in 2021 from NY, 1st round pick in 2022 from PX (Probably 5 to 9ish, but could be a lottery pick), 2nd round pick in 2022 from NY and Talbot

vs package 2 where they ended up
2nd round pick in 2022 from NY, KLS, MHH and Talbot

I find it hard to argue that package 2 is better than package 1 even if you are win now. You still have your core of Bird, Loyd and Stewart, you've got young bigs in Russell and Magbegor, you've brought in vet role players in Prince, Dupree, TY Young and Talbot, the #1 pick in 21 and two first round picks in 22 (Your own and PX's) is a great way to stay competitive now and build towards the future.


Rock Hard



Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 02/12/21 8:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
Even if the Storm simply passed along the #1 Pick from New York to Dallas instantaneously, we still possessed it. Things occurred in an order, and the moment we no longer had it, we got a bag of peanuts in its place. And that, is that, on that.

KLS new nickname is Peanuts. Laughing



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Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 02/12/21 9:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In case anyone's interested, I wrote about all these deals, plus favourite and least favourite deals from free agency - Tradepocalypse, plus deals I like and don't like from WNBA Free Agency so far: https://herhoopstats.substack.com/p/tradepocalypse-wnba-free-agency-likes-dislikes
Quote:
The best combo-forwards offer versatility and options to their coaches, like Napheesa Collier in Minnesota, performing successfully both in the paint and on the perimeter. However, there've also been countless players over the years who've fallen into that tweener gap. Too slow to defend anyone on the outside, too lightweight to battle inside, they're often successful in Europe but can't survive at either spot in the WNBA. Samuelson has yet to prove that she can produce positive results inside or out at WNBA level.



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CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 02/12/21 10:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
In case anyone's interested, I wrote about all these deals, plus favourite and least favourite deals from free agency - Tradepocalypse, plus deals I like and don't like from WNBA Free Agency so far: https://herhoopstats.substack.com/p/tradepocalypse-wnba-free-agency-likes-dislikes
Quote:
The best combo-forwards offer versatility and options to their coaches, like Napheesa Collier in Minnesota, performing successfully both in the paint and on the perimeter. However, there've also been countless players over the years who've fallen into that tweener gap. Too slow to defend anyone on the outside, too lightweight to battle inside, they're often successful in Europe but can't survive at either spot in the WNBA. Samuelson has yet to prove that she can produce positive results inside or out at WNBA level.


Richyyy, this really was a fantastic column.

While I disagreed with certain portions of it (Nurse showed very steady improvement and progression in her second year as a second option behind Tina Charles, demonstrating the potential to be an incredibly solid 2nd option or even a great 3rd option on a top-tier team), I thought the article contained incredible amounts of information and analysis.


SDHoops



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: 02/12/21 10:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rock Hard wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
Even if the Storm simply passed along the #1 Pick from New York to Dallas instantaneously, we still possessed it. Things occurred in an order, and the moment we no longer had it, we got a bag of peanuts in its place. And that, is that, on that.

KLS new nickname is Peanuts. Laughing

And not even Planters or brand name. Just a generic ass bag of peanuts from a cheap air flight


NYL_WNBA_FAN



Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 13366



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PostPosted: 02/12/21 10:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyyy always writes well-written and thought provoking material. I haven’t read this yet but just seeing the blurb and Cam’s quote. I’ll add two things.

On Nurse, I agree with Cam. Even with her shooting struggles last year you can see she’s worked on aspects of her game. Her mid-range shot creation is a work in progress in a positive way. And she’s improved at getting free throw attempts.

On KLS, it’s interesting how a team like Seattle with a defensive structure is trading draft capital for an offense-first player with potential to be a force as well as potential to be forever a tweener without a starting role. It shows how the new salary structure is forcing teams into making “outside the box” moves. Teams built around multiple vets with star power are going to be hard to keep together.



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Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 02/12/21 10:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Thanks Cam. I did say I still had plenty of hope for Nurse once she was back in a more suitable role (but as mentioned in the piece, what do they do in a year? Her rookie-scale deal ends, and they still have Taurasi/Diggins-Smith/Hartley under big contracts. It's an expensive rental).



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root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: 02/12/21 10:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Great job as usual Richyyy. It just blows my mind that Hamby will make less than Danielle Robinson and Lavender, or for that matter, Achonwa and Whitcomb. And that deal Sykes signed leaves me speechless. She must really, really, really love LA or she should fire her agent.



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CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18284
Location: Phoenix


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PostPosted: 02/12/21 10:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Thanks Cam. I did say I still had plenty of hope for Nurse once she was back in a more suitable role (but as mentioned in the piece, what do they do in a year? Her rookie-scale deal ends, and they still have Taurasi/Diggins-Smith/Hartley under big contracts. It's an expensive rental).


Richyyy, I agree with you - the concern is that this could be an expensive one-year rental (and not in the Kawhi Leonard/Toronto Raptors/NBA title good way).

Regarding Phoenix's salary cap, this is where my earlier proposal of trading Griner for the #1 pick and Bella Alarie (and possibly another first round pick thrown in) comes into play. It certainly frees up cap space (Griner is signed through the end of 2022 at max money).

Depending on Griner's status and Nurse's performance, I can see Phoenix being able to compensate her in a comfortable range. But is going to take some creativity on the part of GM Jim Pittman.


canadaball



Joined: 24 May 2013
Posts: 395



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PostPosted: 02/12/21 11:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Great article


DFWub2018



Joined: 24 Aug 2018
Posts: 495
Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth


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PostPosted: 02/12/21 12:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
Thanks Cam. I did say I still had plenty of hope for Nurse once she was back in a more suitable role (but as mentioned in the piece, what do they do in a year? Her rookie-scale deal ends, and they still have Taurasi/Diggins-Smith/Hartley under big contracts. It's an expensive rental).


Richyyy, I agree with you - the concern is that this could be an expensive one-year rental (and not in the Kawhi Leonard/Toronto Raptors/NBA title good way).

Regarding Phoenix's salary cap, this is where my earlier proposal of trading Griner for the #1 pick and Bella Alarie (and possibly another first round pick thrown in) comes into play. It certainly frees up cap space (Griner is signed through the end of 2022 at max money).

Depending on Griner's status and Nurse's performance, I can see Phoenix being able to compensate her in a comfortable range. But is going to take some creativity on the part of GM Jim Pittman.


I would absolutely decline that offer for Grinder! I say that not because her talent level doesn't justify it but with the experiences we've had in the past with dealing with "super stars" in this league, who's to say the BG doesn't pull the same stunt a year later, now you're screwed because you've given away so many assets just to aquire her, now no other teams are going to willing to take her off your hands because they don't want to deal with the drama either!!!


Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 02/12/21 12:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
It just blows my mind that Hamby will make less than Danielle Robinson and Lavender, or for that matter, Achonwa and Whitcomb.


Shoutout to Dantas.

root_thing wrote:
that deal Sykes signed leaves me speechless. She must really, really, really love LA or she should fire her agent.


How many other options were left that were able and willing to pay her more, maybe NYL?



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Michelle89



Joined: 17 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: 02/12/21 1:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
root_thing wrote:
It just blows my mind that Hamby will make less than Danielle Robinson and Lavender, or for that matter, Achonwa and Whitcomb.


Shoutout to Dantas.

root_thing wrote:
that deal Sykes signed leaves me speechless. She must really, really, really love LA or she should fire her agent.


How many other options were left that were able and willing to pay her more, maybe NYL?


Storm?



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root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: 02/12/21 2:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
Shades wrote:
root_thing wrote:
It just blows my mind that Hamby will make less than Danielle Robinson and Lavender, or for that matter, Achonwa and Whitcomb.


Shoutout to Dantas.

root_thing wrote:
that deal Sykes signed leaves me speechless. She must really, really, really love LA or she should fire her agent.


How many other options were left that were able and willing to pay her more, maybe NYL?


Storm?


Indiana can also use some help at guard, and they have the cap space.

As far as Dantas goes, I posted after she signed the extension that I thought she was selling herself short.



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Rock Hard



Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: 02/12/21 5:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The market dictates how much money you can earn. If there is a team that wants to pay player X a high dollar amount that is what the player should take. If any player take a deal that is less than what she is worth then that is on the player and her agent.



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 02/13/21 5:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The weakest #1 pick since 1999 based on minutes played, was Janel McCarville who played 11.1 mpg in 28 games with 1.8 ppg in her rookie season.
Ann Wauters is the only other #1 pick in that period to average less than 20 (Samuelson was 20 mpg in 2020, 7.7 mpg in 2019) - 18.7 minutes for 32 games with 6.2 ppg.

Beyond "what is available at #1 instead of her", Samuelson has the question mark of is she a WNBA starter-level player. If they are trading for her in order to potentially win a championship with her starting at the three, she should be a starter level three. The jury may still be out on that. I think everyone would list her strength as 3-point shooting, but she is only shooting a career 30.3% from three [27.6% 2019, 31.7% 2020].


Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 02/13/21 7:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would have least waited until draft night to see who declares and what offers could be had before trading No. 1. Another interesting question is whether Dallas would have ended up waiving KLS given their glut of player and draft picks. Wink


Iluvacc



Joined: 11 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: 02/13/21 11:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SDHoops wrote:
Rock Hard wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
Even if the Storm simply passed along the #1 Pick from New York to Dallas instantaneously, we still possessed it. Things occurred in an order, and the moment we no longer had it, we got a bag of peanuts in its place. And that, is that, on that.

KLS new nickname is Peanuts. Laughing

And not even Planters or brand name. Just a generic ass bag of peanuts from a cheap air flight


The way I just hollered Laughing Laughing Laughing

KLS is a good 3 pt shooter, being on the floor with Bird, Loyd, and Stewart will definitely provide her with a chance to get off her shot, however how will she contribute on the other end?


willtalk



Joined: 13 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: 02/13/21 11:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't think she is as bad a defender as everyone makes he out to be. I watched her closely when she played for the USA qualifying team last year and whe was better than the player she rotated with. At least for that limited period of time. Often players get a reputation, either bad or good, and the keep it way beyond the point it no longer applies.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/13/21 11:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't think Katie Lou is that slow when she's healthy. The problem is that she always seems to have some kind of nagging injury -- foot, ankle, knee, whatever. At UConn, she didn't miss many games but was always playing injured. That leaves you functionally slow which is what counts. I know she missed time with Chicago due to a hand injury. That probably affected her shooting, which explains the underperformance in what is supposed to be her best skill. Throw in the difficulty of playing off the bench for long-range shooters, and that's how we get to where we are.

I think if she's healthy and can get regular minutes, Samuelson will be fine. However, recent history indicates that she is injury prone.



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IM in OC



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PostPosted: 02/13/21 1:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I don't think Katie Lou is that slow when she's healthy. The problem is that she always seems to have some kind of nagging injury -- foot, ankle, knee, whatever. At UConn, she didn't miss many games but was always playing injured. That leaves you functionally slow which is what counts. I know she missed time with Chicago due to a hand injury. That probably affected her shooting, which explains the underperformance in what is supposed to be her best skill. Throw in the difficulty of playing off the bench for long-range shooters, and that's how we get to where we are.

I think if she's healthy and can get regular minutes, Samuelson will be fine. However, recent history indicates that she is injury prone.


KLS looks fine to me in this recent Euroleague action against Dynamo Kursk. Scored 27 points in this game. Doesnt look slow to me and does more than just shoot three's and it includes a blocked shot.


https://twitter.com/EuroLeagueWomen/status/1353009603785580545


craigmont



Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 671
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PostPosted: 02/13/21 2:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

IM in OC wrote:
root_thing wrote:
I don't think Katie Lou is that slow when she's healthy. The problem is that she always seems to have some kind of nagging injury -- foot, ankle, knee, whatever. At UConn, she didn't miss many games but was always playing injured. That leaves you functionally slow which is what counts. I know she missed time with Chicago due to a hand injury. That probably affected her shooting, which explains the underperformance in what is supposed to be her best skill. Throw in the difficulty of playing off the bench for long-range shooters, and that's how we get to where we are.

I think if she's healthy and can get regular minutes, Samuelson will be fine. However, recent history indicates that she is injury prone.


KLS looks fine to me in this recent Euroleague action against Dynamo Kursk. Scored 27 points in this game. Doesnt look slow to me and does more than just shoot three's and it includes a blocked shot.


https://twitter.com/EuroLeagueWomen/status/1353009603785580545


If the #1 scorer in the Euroleague wasn't already in the WNBA, where would you draft the rights to that player?


RavenDog



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: 02/13/21 2:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

IM in OC wrote:
root_thing wrote:
I don't think Katie Lou is that slow when she's healthy. The problem is that she always seems to have some kind of nagging injury -- foot, ankle, knee, whatever. At UConn, she didn't miss many games but was always playing injured. That leaves you functionally slow which is what counts. I know she missed time with Chicago due to a hand injury. That probably affected her shooting, which explains the underperformance in what is supposed to be her best skill. Throw in the difficulty of playing off the bench for long-range shooters, and that's how we get to where we are.

I think if she's healthy and can get regular minutes, Samuelson will be fine. However, recent history indicates that she is injury prone.


KLS looks fine to me in this recent Euroleague action against Dynamo Kursk. Scored 27 points in this game. Doesnt look slow to me and does more than just shoot three's and it includes a blocked shot.

Looks like she has put on more muscle and gotten fully healthy. Liked that step-back 2-pointer. If she can do that in the WNBA and stay healthy - Go Lou!
https://twitter.com/EuroLeagueWomen/status/1353009603785580545



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 02/13/21 2:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
The weakest #1 pick since 1999 based on minutes played, was Janel McCarville who played 11.1 mpg in 28 games with 1.8 ppg in her rookie season.
Ann Wauters is the only other #1 pick in that period to average less than 20 (Samuelson was 20 mpg in 2020, 7.7 mpg in 2019) - 18.7 minutes for 32 games with 6.2 ppg.

Beyond "what is available at #1 instead of her", Samuelson has the question mark of is she a WNBA starter-level player. If they are trading for her in order to potentially win a championship with her starting at the three, she should be a starter level three. The jury may still be out on that. I think everyone would list her strength as 3-point shooting, but she is only shooting a career 30.3% from three [27.6% 2019, 31.7% 2020].


I mean, is it a question mark though? So far she has shown nothing to suggest she is. It's always possible that a player can make a big leap, but many more players are exactly what they look like.


Iluvacc



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PostPosted: 02/13/21 3:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
I don't think she is as bad a defender as everyone makes he out to be. I watched her closely when she played for the USA qualifying team last year and whe was better than the player she rotated with. At least for that limited period of time. Often players get a reputation, either bad or good, and the keep it way beyond the point it no longer applies.


This is very true. I watched her in the W last summer, she was bad on the defensive end.


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