| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 8947
Back to top |
 Posted: 01/18/21 10:32 pm ::: Presidential Pardons |
Reply  |
|
Good or bad?
Leave them as they are or put some restrictions on them?
I'm kind of not in favor of them. At least as they seem to be used now. They shouldn't be used as a "get your buddy out of trouble free" card.
I don't think I would be opposed to some restrictions on them. Maybe allow so many per year. Like five, maybe ten. And then they have to be approved by the majority of a bi-partisan committee. If it's a ligit pardon it shouldn't be too hard to get a simple majority, right?
What am I missing about presidential pardons? What, if anything, would you change about them?
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66914
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/18/21 11:10 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
They're fine. They've always been used to help political allies and personal friends.
Pardons used to be a much more common thing. Hoover issued 1300+ pardons in his one term. Truman was over 2000 in his term and a half. Obama tried to return to that standard, issuing nearly 2000 over his two terms.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 8947
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 7:51 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
They're fine. They've always been used to help political allies and personal friends.
Pardons used to be a much more common thing. Hoover issued 1300+ pardons in his one term. Truman was over 2000 in his term and a half. Obama tried to return to that standard, issuing nearly 2000 over his two terms. |
Isn't that kind of like saying that slavery was fine because slaves had (most) always been used by presidents?
Or that denying blacks and women the vote was fine because it was always that way?
Should I keep going?
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66914
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 7:58 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Ex-Ref wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
They're fine. They've always been used to help political allies and personal friends.
Pardons used to be a much more common thing. Hoover issued 1300+ pardons in his one term. Truman was over 2000 in his term and a half. Obama tried to return to that standard, issuing nearly 2000 over his two terms. |
Isn't that kind of like saying that slavery was fine because slaves had (most) always been used by presidents?
Or that denying blacks and women the vote was fine because it was always that way?
Should I keep going? |
Please, give us more false equivalences.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 21928
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 8:58 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I think Ex-Ref is chasing opinions on the merit of this pardoning power.
Saying something was popular in the past isn't really a strong argument that it is a good thing.
_________________
Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
|
tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9624
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 10:36 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Ideally it would be used to look at the plethora of arrests and convictions (or potential convictions like Snowden and Assange) and find instances where there was a strong feeling that the law applied was no longer viewed the same , or the sentence appeared too harsh, or new testimony or evidence, or a review of the trial cast doubt on the conviction (but I think there are existing ways to deal with that via the court system).
In some cases it probably is. But it is being applied by politicians. So the execution doesn't exactly match up to what may have been a moral intent. Or maybe the intent was to allow well connected criminals to get special treatment. If the latter, presidents seem to fulfill that purpose.
I'd like to see Snowden and Assange pardoned. But like most pardons, there would be strong opposition to that. Could be a majority would oppose it, and definitely a large majority inside the beltway. If Trump doesn't pardon them I can't see Biden doing it.
|
|
Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 8947
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 10:47 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| Ex-Ref wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
They're fine. They've always been used to help political allies and personal friends.
Pardons used to be a much more common thing. Hoover issued 1300+ pardons in his one term. Truman was over 2000 in his term and a half. Obama tried to return to that standard, issuing nearly 2000 over his two terms. |
Isn't that kind of like saying that slavery was fine because slaves had (most) always been used by presidents?
Or that denying blacks and women the vote was fine because it was always that way?
Should I keep going? |
Please, give us more false equivalences. |
You are the one that said leave pardons alone because they've always been done that way. I'm just pointing out what a weak answer that is.
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3515
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 11:28 am ::: |
Reply |
|
It seems Pres pardons fall into 2 categories...
Pardoning your buddy or to curry political favors. A complete abuse of power, IMHO.
Pardoning people convicted of crimes to get them out of jail. Cases are reviewed by a Pardon office in the DoJ. This seems rather unnecessary given prior evaluation by court of appeals, parole boards, etc. I don't see the rationale for allowing the Pres to overturn judicial decisions, nor the need for more redundancy in Washington. Maybe we should just do away with the Supreme Court and let the Pres decide the law of the land? <sarcasm emoji>
|
|
jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 11:46 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Don’t go to sleep on Ghislaine Maxwell. Just sayin’.  _________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66914
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 11:58 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| The one change I might make would be to eliminate lame duck pardons. If the rest of the country's business can be put on hold for two and a half months, so can pardons.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 12:02 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
List has been released, I think. Here is the NYTimes.
President Trump, during his one term in office, has used clemency power on behalf of convicted liars and crooked politicians, some of whom have been his friends. But the long list of pardons his team has prepared for him to sign on his final full day in office includes the names of people who have been serving life sentences for drug or fraud charges and who for years have been seeking clemency.
In the past, the administration has emphasized clemency for low-level offenders in order to blunt criticism that Mr. Trump was inappropriately offering pardons to people to whom he had personal connections. Tuesday’s group includes non-violent offenders whose names have been percolating for years among advocates who believe their punishments never fit their crimes and whose cases underscore the broken nature of the country’s criminal justice system.
The names were recommended by a group that included Alice Johnson, who has been working with #Cut50, a prisoner advocacy group, and Mark Holden, a former executive at Koch Industries. Ms. Johnson herself was granted a full pardon after speaking on Mr. Trump’s behalf at the Republican National Convention and has continued to personally press Mr. Trump and his family members about their cases. The Justice Department’s Office of the Pardon Attorney was cut out of the process, as has been typical in the Trump White House.
Among those being pardoned Tuesday, according to people directly involved in the process, are Darrell Frazier, who has served more than 30 years of a life sentence for drug conspiracy charges. During his incarceration, Darrell founded The Joe Johnson Tennis Foundation, a nonprofit supporting children in Chattanooga, Tenn.
Craig Cesal has been serving a life sentence without parole on a marijuana charge. “My crime was that my truck repair business in Chicago fixed trucks operated by a Florida long-haul trucking company whose drivers trafficked marijuana in the south,” he told The Washington Post in 2016.
Lavonne Roach, a nonviolent drug offender, has been serving a 30-year sentence after she was charged with conspiracy to distribute meth. Ms. Roach, a Lakota Sioux woman, has been in prison since 1994.
Chalana McFarland was sentenced in 2005 to 30 years for multiple counts of mortgage fraud. She was sent to prison when her daughter was 4 years old. Since July, she has been serving her sentence at home because of concerns about the spread of the coronavirus in Florida prisons._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
|
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63777
Back to top |
|
PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16359
Location: Chicago
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 1:10 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| The pardon power is in the constitution. Does anyone, and I ask this seriously, know why?
|
|
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63777
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 1:11 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
Pardons used to be a much more common thing. Hoover issued 1300+ pardons in his one term. Truman was over 2000 in his term and a half. Obama tried to return to that standard, issuing nearly 2000 over his two terms. |
I think the term you meant to use is “clemencies” which lumps pardons and commutations together. There is a distinction between the two.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commutation_(law)
| Quote: |
In law, a commutation is the substitution of a lesser penalty for that given after a conviction for a crime. The penalty can be lessened in severity, in duration, or both. Unlike most pardons by government and overturning by the court (a full overturning is equal to an acquittal), a commutation does not affect the status of a defendant's underlying criminal conviction.
A commutation does not reverse a conviction and the recipient of a commutation remains guilty in accordance with the original conviction. For example, someone convicted of capital murder may have their sentence of death commuted to life imprisonment, a lessening of the punishment that does not affect the underlying criminal conviction, as may occur on a discretionary basis or following upon a change in the law or judicial ruling that limits or eliminates the death penalty. |
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/clemency-statistics
So in the interest of accuracy, for Obama:
Granted
Pardons 212
Commutations 1715
Denied
Pardons 1,708
Commutations 18,749
Closed without action
Pardons 508
Commutations 4,252
_________________
Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/19/21 5:42 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| tfan wrote: |
Ideally it would be used to look at the plethora of arrests and convictions (or potential convictions like Snowden and Assange) and find instances where there was a strong feeling that the law applied was no longer viewed the same , or the sentence appeared too harsh, or new testimony or evidence, or a review of the trial cast doubt on the conviction (but I think there are existing ways to deal with that via the court system).
In some cases it probably is. But it is being applied by politicians. So the execution doesn't exactly match up to what may have been a moral intent. Or maybe the intent was to allow well connected criminals to get special treatment. If the latter, presidents seem to fulfill that purpose.
I'd like to see Snowden and Assange pardoned. But like most pardons, there would be strong opposition to that. Could be a majority would oppose it, and definitely a large majority inside the beltway. If Trump doesn't pardon them I can't see Biden doing it. |
I'd agree strongly with all of the above. I'm still split on Eric and Julian....I'm all for Eric's pardoning, but not convinced about Julian's total innocence, or altruistic motivations.
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| Don’t go to sleep on Ghislaine Maxwell. Just sayin’. |
For real. In general, I don't even understand how pardons and commutations can even be considered BEFORE the person in question has had the full extent of their case adjudicated. Can anyone have their criminal charges purged, before they've even been tried?
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
Posts: 4701
Back to top |
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66914
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/20/21 9:30 am ::: |
Reply |
|
No pardons for any of the capitol attackers.
Also none for any Trump family members, which puts him one up on Bill Clinton.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63777
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/20/21 11:08 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Quote: |
| Dwayne Michael Carter Jr. – President Trump granted a full pardon to Dwayne Michael Carter Jr., also known as “Lil Wayne.” Mr. Carter pled guilty to possession of a firearm and ammunition by a convicted felon, owing to a conviction over 10 years ago. Brett Berish of Sovereign Brands, who supports a pardon for Mr. Carter, describes him as “trustworthy, kind-hearted and generous.” Mr. Carter has exhibited this generosity through commitment to a variety of charities, including donations to research hospitals and a host of foodbanks. Deion Sanders, who also wrote in support of this pardon, calls Mr. Wayne “a provider for his family, a friend to many, a man of faith, a natural giver to the less fortunate, a waymaker, [and] a game changer.” |
They forgot to mention how he endorsed Trump to the confusion of many. This helps clarify things. The Quid Pro Quo President!
_________________
Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3515
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/20/21 12:24 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Per radio news this morning, Joe Exotic sent a 200-page request to Trump asking for a pardon for his crimes related to a murder-for-hire conspiracy. He was so sure he'd receive it that he auctioned off his underwear online to raise money for a limo, which was then parked outside waiting for his release. Unfortunately for him, Trump declined to pardon him.
|
|
Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18030
Location: Queens
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/20/21 1:58 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| Per radio news this morning, Joe Exotic sent a 200-page request to Trump asking for a pardon for his crimes related to a murder-for-hire conspiracy. He was so sure he'd receive it that he auctioned off his underwear online to raise money for a limo, which was then parked outside waiting for his release. Unfortunately for him, Trump declined to pardon him. |
I'm sorry, what.
_________________
Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
|
|
PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16359
Location: Chicago
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/20/21 3:08 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Queenie wrote: |
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| Per radio news this morning, Joe Exotic sent a 200-page request to Trump asking for a pardon for his crimes related to a murder-for-hire conspiracy. He was so sure he'd receive it that he auctioned off his underwear online to raise money for a limo, which was then parked outside waiting for his release. Unfortunately for him, Trump declined to pardon him. |
I'm sorry, what. |
This response is perfection. Oh, Queenie, how I missed you here.
|
|
jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/20/21 4:00 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
 _________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3515
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/20/21 5:15 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Y'all ought to be thankful I left out the details about the underwear.
|
|
jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
Back to top |
| Posted: 01/20/21 8:47 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
 _________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
|
|
|
