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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 2:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It’s really amazing to hear these conventional establishment minds suggesting that there’s no need for the 25th amendment because the Trump presidency has only two weeks left.

I don’t agree. This guy is like an excited angry animal. He is going to wake up tomorrow wanting MORE of this and there’s really no telling what he’s likely to do. Erudite establishment types just don’t understand what they’re dealing with in Trump. Remove this guy or look the fuck out.

Here’s how it works. Over half the cabinet and the VP sign off and they send it off to the Hill. AT THAT MOMENT, Pence becomes the acting president. Immediately. Then Trump disputes it and congress has THREE WEEKS to drag their feet. End of Trump, end of story. And it could happen overnight. He COULD be gone by the time we wake up tomorrow morning. But if you don’t do that, he’s not going to stop. He has an appetite for all of this.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
tfan



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 2:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
It’s really amazing to hear these conventional establishment minds suggesting that there’s no need for the 25th amendment because the Trump presidency has only two weeks left.


It appears to me that the 25th amendment is for when the president is "incapacitated", not for when he does stuff that people don't like or feel is dangerous.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 7:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
It’s really amazing to hear these conventional establishment minds suggesting that there’s no need for the 25th amendment because the Trump presidency has only two weeks left.


It appears to me that the 25th amendment is for when the president is "incapacitated", not for when he does stuff that people don't like or feel is dangerous.


Yes, it was originally conceived of for times when the president might be physically incapacitated or unconscious etc. But, the language is clearly open to other interpretations and, honestly, it should be.

Because, quite obviously, a president can be unable to carry out his constitutional duties and responsibilities due to having any number of mental/behavioral issues that prevent his being able to discharge his duties in a responsible manner. One of those, I would assert, would be an emotional disturbance that manifests itself in a president engaging in actions or behaviors that are destructive to functions of the government, the office itself, and to the country.

I would also assert that Trump has displayed exactly such an incapacity due to an extreme emotional disturbance brought on by his losing the election. I think he’s no able to responsibly perform his necessary sworn duties as president, one of which is to protect and defend the constitution and the established functions of the government.

(Somebody copy and send that all to Pence. Cool )



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 8:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One last thought. Think about what happened yesterday and in doing so say hello to our future. It probably harkens back to what it might have been like during WWII but people living then were buffered somewhat from the shock of rapid fire events by a different earlier era in technology. No such luck for us.

The Democrats seized functional control of the senate and now control both houses and the executive branch. Should have been the monumental news of the day. But that news was... overshadowed? No. More like obliterated by the storming of the Capitol by this mob who’d been stirred up by the words and actions of an irresponsible demagogue who happens to be the president of the United States.

That’s a lot to swallow.

But really terrible events can swallow up great moments of apparent progress literally as they happen. And, honestly, I’m dubious about the idea that the Biden administration and this version of the Democratic Party will actually do great things for the American people. But I’m just talking about the whipsawing of big events that we sometimes experience as living observers and citizens of the world. It’s mayhem. Trump is mayhem but he most certainly is not the only trigger or manifestation of it. The human race is mayhem. The entire planet is.

And there somewhere else in our collective consciousness, under reported on if it was reported on much at all on this crazy day, over 4000 Americans died of COVID, the highest single day total since the pandemic began.

Get used to picking your jaws up off the floor. 2021 is going to be worse that 2020. And the mayhem and disorder in America that we’re going to witness in the already roaring 20s is just beginning.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 8:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
It’s really amazing to hear these conventional establishment minds suggesting that there’s no need for the 25th amendment because the Trump presidency has only two weeks left.


It appears to me that the 25th amendment is for when the president is "incapacitated", not for when he does stuff that people don't like or feel is dangerous.


Looks to me that the 25A is perfectly suited for this situation.

Quote:
Late former Sen. Birch Bayh wrote in his book “One Heartbeat Away: Presidential Disability and Succession” that he knew the most controversial aspect of the amendment he authored would be how to handle the rare instances when a president’s team disputed his ability to serve.

“You know, fellows, we've talked about this problem a hundred times,” Bayh recounted, telling his aides when they were in the final stages of negotiation. “The only time it would present itself – the only time the president would say 'I'm well and able' and the vice president and cabinet would disagree – would be if the president was as nutty as a fruit cake.”



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"The biggest antidote to his poison is the vote.” — Nancy Pelosi

"Our democracy is designed to speak truth to power." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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PostPosted: 01/07/21 8:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
One last thought. Think about what happened yesterday and in doing so say hello to our future. It probably harkens back to what it might have been like during WWII but people living then were buffered somewhat from the shock of rapid fire events by a different earlier era in technology. No such luck for us.

The Democrats seized functional control of the senate and now control both houses and the executive branch. Should have been the monumental news of the day. But that news was... overshadowed? No. More like obliterated by the storming of the Capitol by this mob who’d been stirred up by the words and actions of an irresponsible demagogue who happens to be the president of the United States.

That’s a lot to swallow.


But really terrible events can swallow up great moments of apparent progress literally as they happen. And, honestly, I’m dubious about the idea that the Biden administration and this version of the Democratic Party will actually do great things for the American people. But I’m just talking about the whipsawing of big events that we sometimes experience as living observers and citizens of the world. It’s mayhem. Trump is mayhem but he most certainly is not the only trigger or manifestation of it. The human race is mayhem. The entire planet is.

And there somewhere else in our collective consciousness, under reported on if it was reported on much at all on this crazy day, over 4000 Americans died of COVID, the highest single day total since the pandemic began.

Get used to picking your jaws up off the floor. 2021 is going to be worse that 2020. And the mayhem and disorder in America that we’re going to witness in the already roaring 20s is just beginning.


It's like 2021 has looked at 2020 and said "hold my beer."

I walked in to work on Monday, saw my boss frantically trying to deal with people and paperwork and the phone and said, "Is 2021 over yet? I'm ready for 2022." She replied, "You said about 2019. Remember how that worked out?" Little did I know....



_________________
"The biggest antidote to his poison is the vote.” — Nancy Pelosi

"Our democracy is designed to speak truth to power." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

"If this guy can be Senator, you can do anything." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
mercfan3



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 9:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:


Get used to picking your jaws up off the floor. 2021 is going to be worse that 2020. And the mayhem and disorder in America that we’re going to witness in the already roaring 20s is just beginning.


Call me naive, but I don't think it is. I think there is a lot of hope this year. We have the vaccine. We're getting rid of a demagogue.

But I don't know that 2021 really starts until January 21. And I think this is going to be a year of healing. That can just be rough.

I've seen a lot of comparisons - from both sides - to the BLM movement. People who supported the BLM protests pointing out the differences in police and military response. People who didn't support the BLM protests pointing out that "BLM protesters rioted too."

And something that bothered me - a lot..was the video of the police officers letting the terrorists into the Capitol. And then taking selfies with them IN the Capitol.

That's beyond police officers choosing white lives over black lives..or choosing to respect white lives, or showing they are actually capable of not using force.

That is literally police officers choosing white supremacy over American Democracy.

Last night Cory Booker said "We are a nation of laws, not a nation of men." That's what we are supposed to be. And at the root of it - that's what BLM is all about right..our judicial system, something that is supposed to be equal..is not. And the result is devaluing of Black lives.

But how can we be a nation of laws, not of men..if those tasked with enforcing those laws don't actually enforce them. From the executive branch all the way down to police officers. That's why LBJ enforced school integration.

We have "Trump loyalists" in every corner of the executive branch - and make no mistake, Trump loyalists are authoritative white supremacists.

Our new president had to change secret service teams because his team were Trump loyalists.

We're a nation of laws, not of men. And yet, Donald Trump flipped that on it's head.

It's scary how easy he was able to do that - but as I said before, the worst part is someone far smarter than Donald Trump is watching this and realizing how easy it would be to become a dictator in this country. (Josh Hawley..)

The Trump presidency was made me rethink and re-evaluate a lot of my own political beliefs. TBH, I think he made me more conservative (They had a point about state's rights..and I'm not sure I want the federal government completely in charge of anything until it proves it can function)...and one of them was the importance of the executive branch. I believe in laws, and that you can change make the most change through them - yet..in order for change to really happen, the executive needs to be on board.

I don't expect people to suddenly wake up and act normal again after Joe's inauguration..so it's time to hold people accountable.



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Last edited by mercfan3 on 01/07/21 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total
tfan



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 9:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:

That's beyond police officers choosing white lives over black lives..or choosing to respect white lives, or showing they are actually capable of not using force.


Despite the BLM group and marches, I have never seen anyone quote a study that shows black men resisting arrest are more likely to be shot by the police than white men resisting arrest. But I have heard of studies that show there is no difference or a slight higher chance a white man will be shot.

And they killed a white woman yesterday. I don't recall any people being shot last year during the BLM protests and looting.

Quote:
That is literally police officers choosing white supremacy over American Democracy.


Were they taking selfies inside the Capitol Building, while some had guns drawn and one guy killed a woman? Or were they taking selfies with the people just out and about on the street who weren't breaking into anything?

Trump hasn't advocated white supremacy nor did the supporters who were in DC. They also not only didn't call for an end to immigration (mostly non-whites), they didn't even call for workplace enforcement of labor laws which would drive out the illegal workforce (considered mostly non-whites). I think that a white supremacist would have stopping immigration as a top priority. Although I guess Democrats think it is requiring people to show ID to vote.

With regard to the "Proud Boys", the small beer-drinking social group that Biden claimed in a debate was "white supremacists", the Southern Poverty Law Center, who makes it their business to beat the bushes looking for white supremacists, can only say they have "ties to white supremacists". Which means their answer to "are they a white supremacist group?" would be a no.


mercfan3



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 10:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:

That's beyond police officers choosing white lives over black lives..or choosing to respect white lives, or showing they are actually capable of not using force.


Despite the BLM group and marches, I have never seen anyone quote a study that shows black men resisting arrest are more likely to be shot by the police than white men resisting arrest. But I have heard of studies that show there is no difference or a slight higher chance a white man will be shot.

And they killed a white woman yesterday. I don't recall any people being shot last year during the BLM protests and looting.

Quote:
That is literally police officers choosing white supremacy over American Democracy.


Were they taking selfies inside the Capitol Building, while some had guns drawn and one guy killed a woman? Or were they taking selfies with the people just out and about on the street who weren't breaking into anything?

Trump hasn't advocated white supremacy nor did the supporters who were in DC. They also not only didn't call for an end to immigration (mostly non-whites), they didn't even call for workplace enforcement of labor laws which would drive out the illegal workforce (considered mostly non-whites). I think that a white supremacist would have stopping immigration as a top priority. Although I guess Democrats think it is requiring people to show ID to vote.

With regard to the "Proud Boys", the small beer-drinking social group that Biden claimed in a debate was "white supremacists", the Southern Poverty Law Center, who makes it their business to beat the bushes looking for white supremacists, can only say they have "ties to white supremacists". Which means their answer to "are they a white supremacist group?" would be a no.


1. There's a video of them taking selfies in the capitol building with the terrorists.

2. Yes he has embraced white supremacy. That's not debatable. There is a lot of video evidence.

3. Yes the Proud Boys are white supremacists. There's video evidence.

I.am.so.done.

Not calling people out on their bs and not holding people accountable is what led to yesterday. Yesterday was an attempted coup. An attack on our democracy by white supremacists Trump supporters. (whom were encouraged to do so by Trump.) That's the truth. That's what happened. Stop burying your nose in the sand.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 1:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote



"The party of Lincoln"



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 2:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Also, tell us more about how walls keep people out...




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tfan



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 10:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:


"The party of Lincoln"


Does one guy with a confederate flag allow us to call that crowd of thousands "white supremacists". If so, then wouldn't 5 black people being there make it a black crowd?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nmvcX6TRKXA" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_wwAz1aEiSM" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/S9alMvI2ATM" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


tfan



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 11:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:

1. There's a video of them taking selfies in the capitol building with the terrorists.


I wish the people that were taking selfies had been in the area where the woman poked through the door and was killed.

Quote:
2. Yes he has embraced white supremacy. That's not debatable. There is a lot of video evidence.


He hasn't said "I embrace white supremacy". It certainly can't be debated unless you provide a quote or quotes he said that you interpreted as being an embrace of white supremacy.

To me, the real mystery is what do white supremacists want? What policies do they want the government to enact? I would bet that there are "non-white supremacists" that would like the same things - such as you can specify what race is allowed in a neighborhood or restaurant. I believe it would be racist to assume otherwise.

Quote:

3. Yes the Proud Boys are white supremacists. There's video evidence.


The Southern Poverty Law Center is not aware of any video evidence and they look for such things for a living.

Quote:

I.am.so.done.

Not calling people out on their bs and not holding people accountable is what led to yesterday. Yesterday was an attempted coup. An attack on our democracy by white supremacists Trump supporters. (whom were encouraged to do so by Trump.) That's the truth. That's what happened. Stop burying your nose in the sand.


I didn't challenge whether or not Trump had a big hand in that march on the capitol. I don't understand why you claim it was "white supremacists".


tfan



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PostPosted: 01/07/21 11:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Also, tell us more about how walls keep people out...



Report: Israel’s Border Wall Stopped 100 Percent Of Egyptian Migrant Flow


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PostPosted: 01/08/21 8:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Capitol police officer dies after being hit in head with a fire extinguisher.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-police-officer-brian-sicknick-dies-pro-trump-riot/



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"The biggest antidote to his poison is the vote.” — Nancy Pelosi

"Our democracy is designed to speak truth to power." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

"If this guy can be Senator, you can do anything." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
tfan



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PostPosted: 01/08/21 9:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There were four fatalities among the mob. Besides the woman who was shot by a Capitol policeman, there was another woman who was trampled to death and a man who died of a stroke and another who died of a heart attack.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13683669/us-capitol-police-officer-brian-sicknick-dies-riot/


pilight



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PostPosted: 01/08/21 3:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One joke going around South America today is that the US coup failed because there was no US Embassy in Washington DC providing logistical support.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 01/08/21 3:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The New York Times is reporting that Nancy Pelosi spoke to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs about making sure that they would be ready to stop Trump from accessing the launch codes etc.

Experts point out that that would be putting the responsibility for controlling the president on the military instead of the cabinet members who could have evoked the 25th amendment or congress who could impeach and remove him from office.

The military is bound by law to carry out the orders of the president unles those orders are themselves unlawful.

What Nancy Pelosi was suggesting should occur, according to the experts quoted by the New York Times, is a military coup.

I mean, if only someone was keeping score. Cool



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
mercfan3



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PostPosted: 01/08/21 4:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
The New York Times is reporting that Nancy Pelosi spoke to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs about making sure that they would be ready to stop Trump from accessing the launch codes etc.

Experts point out that that would be putting the responsibility for controlling the president on the military instead of the cabinet members who could have evoked the 25th amendment or congress who could impeach and remove him from office.

The military is bound by law to carry out the orders of the president unles those orders are themselves unlawful.

What Nancy Pelosi was suggesting should occur, according to the experts quoted by the New York Times, is a military coup.

I mean, if only someone was keeping score. Cool


Except the orders to carry out a nuke launch is unlawful.

But that’s sad..because it means she knows we can’t remove him.



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PostPosted: 01/08/21 5:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Because, quite obviously, a president can be unable to carry out his constitutional duties and responsibilities due to having any number of mental/behavioral issues that prevent his being able to discharge his duties in a responsible manner. One of those, I would assert, would be an emotional disturbance that manifests itself in a president engaging in actions or behaviors that are destructive to functions of the government, the office itself, and to the country.

I would also assert that Trump has displayed exactly such an incapacity due to an extreme emotional disturbance brought on by his losing the election.


THIS idea has been asserted how many times, over the past 3 or so years? Qualified professionals declared him to be mentally unstable. Yet, "professional ethics" forbade taking any action on it. And so....we waited, and we NOW see the lid (like his mangy, orange muskrat fur) fly off the steaming pot. I'm all for compassionate treatment of those with mental disorders, but WHEN YOU'VE PUT THEM IN CHARGE OF THE FREE WORLD....BEWARE.

mercfan3 wrote:
I.am.so.done.

Not calling people out on their bs and not holding people accountable is what led to yesterday. Yesterday was an attempted coup. An attack on our democracy by white supremacists Trump supporters. (whom were encouraged to do so by Trump.) That's the truth. That's what happened. Stop burying your nose in the sand.


AAAAA-men. The "6MWE" was decidedly linked to the Proud Boys, and the "Camp Auschwitz" hoodie was there amongst the rioting idiots. There doesn't need to be overwhelming, provable majorities amongst these thugs to prove that -- as a whole -- they embrace the dark ideologies.

Now, as the mob members give their motivating reasons, we find Batshit Crazy raised to new levels:

Quote:
By Thursday, Pence appeared to have become the target of bizarre attacks by Trump supporters that are typically reserved for Democrats and celebrities.

Tom Groves, a civil engineer from California, said he believed that Pence was a pedophile and member of the so-called deep state, a common accusation QAnon supporters make without evidence or reason. Trump, he said, had offered Pence a second chance to mend his ways for the unfounded and unsupported transgressions, and Pence had, in return, stabbed his boss in the back.


Finally, even before the pundits pointed out the obvious, I was saying out loud, "Why so FEW law enforcement people on the ground?". I remember on Monday the DC mayor announcing there'd be X number of additional National Guardsmen on duty, and they'd be unarmed. Whatttt!? No one could see the potential for this to turn ugly? Where were the tear gas and rubber bullets that might have helped? Rolling Eyes



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pilight



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PostPosted: 01/08/21 6:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Twitter banned the president

https://twitter.com/TwitterSafety/status/1347684877634838528



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PostPosted: 01/08/21 7:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Twitter banned the president

https://twitter.com/TwitterSafety/status/1347684877634838528


This is why Nancy took the nukes today..she knew it was coming and someone was gonna get nuked in the midst of his temper tantrum.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 01/08/21 7:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Twitter banned the president

https://twitter.com/TwitterSafety/status/1347684877634838528


This is why Nancy took the nukes today..she knew it was coming and someone was gonna get nuked in the midst of his temper tantrum.


How did she take the nukes? Experts have indicated that the military not following a direct order from the president would be a military coup, so Nancy suggested a military coup, which should actually come with a myriad number of ‘explaining to do’ for her, whether any of us agree with the spirit of the idea or not (and I’m sure we all do in this case.) But what else? Oh... and because Trump has always seemed unhinged... the exploration of the process of any president ordering a nuclear strike was laid out in either the Times or the Post and, trust me, you don’t want to know. It’s chilling. There is NO THINKING ALLOWED. No buffer whatsoever. So I don’t know where you’re getting that the ordering of a nuclear strike is unlawful and some unelected soldiers get to make that judgment for all of us when they’re supposed to be acting in split seconds but I’m all ears.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
tfan



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PostPosted: 01/08/21 10:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Twitter banned the president

https://twitter.com/TwitterSafety/status/1347684877634838528


They apparently didn't like the connotation of the word "banned" and refer to it as a "permanent suspension". I have seen it reported with the twitter term, but my local news said "Trump has been banned from Twitter".

In looking for some record of his tweets that got him banned I found an article with this:

Quote:
The end came for Trump after he was given a final warning on Friday morning for tweeted that the “great American Patriots who voted for me” will not be “disrespected or treated unfairly in any way, shape or form!!!”


His final warning appears to have been on what twitter folks felt a tweet implied, not what it said. But "what I think they meant" without the "what I think they meant" seems to be becoming the norm on the polarized political-commentary shows which are what "news" channels put forth these days.


tfan



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PostPosted: 01/08/21 11:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
There doesn't need to be overwhelming, provable majorities amongst these thugs to prove that -- as a whole -- they embrace the dark ideologies.


This is the logic that employers are using even though I think that the people who went into the capitol building were a more militant group than the larger group of people who came to DC as a show of support/protest. Similar to how people protesting in the summer as a group were not the same as the subset who looted businesses and attacked police stations. People are getting fired from their jobs if evidence is on social media that they were in Washington for the "Save America Rally". It doesn't appear to matter whether they went into the congressional building or not. Or it may be that just showing you feel the election results could be wrong is the disqualifier in some cases. Or it may even be that at this point in time if you are known to be a Trump supporter, you are done.

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