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pilight



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PostPosted: 11/23/20 10:12 am    ::: I Want My Damn Respect, Too Reply Reply with quote

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/cynthia-cooper-dyke-wnba-basketball

Quote:
Coach just looks at me for a few seconds, still all quizzical, and finally he says, “Well..... alright, then. Alright, Cupper.” (He never pronounced my name right. Still doesn’t to this day.)



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PostPosted: 11/23/20 1:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
(6) In 1996, an American women’s professional league started up called the ABL.

Finally!!!! Right???

As soon as I heard about it, I reached out to them about joining — and I figured my chances had to be good. I’d just spent almost a decade leading the top league on the entire planet in scoring.

They passed, though.

Yup — they just straight-up passed on me. Told me thanks but no thanks. Said they already had “enough guards.”

That one hurt, I won’t lie.


The ABL TURNED DOWN COOP ! OMG no wonder Rolling Eyes



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 11/23/20 1:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is one hell of a story by coop , im literally in awe reading this ENTIRE thing ! Great post !!!!



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 11/23/20 3:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lots of great stuff here ... some comments.

Cooper was unbelievable. I saw her a lot, and she was something. And she was way past her prime -- I can only imagine how good she was at 27.

A great, great player, and like Diana, charismatic and compelling.

Better than Diana? Tough question, just as with MJ and LeBron.

1) Cooper played with Sheryl Swoopes, Tina Thompson and Janeth Arcain (who was MVP of the World Championships one year). It would have been interesting to see what happened with lesser lights around her.

2) The WNBA in the first four years was nothing -- absolutely nothing -- like it is now. The level of play and coaching was much, much lower, and though winning four championships in a row is an achievement anywhere, any time, those four WNBA titles do not compare at all to the degree of difficulty in winning four right now.

And to compare them to the NBA or other leagues is really, sadly, laughable.

Again, Cooper was fabulous, tremendous, in the conversation for GOAT. And she doesn't get enough credit for that, compared to today's players. But there are a lot of great players in a lot of sports who are overlooked for a lot of reasons, so though I sympathize, she's far from alone.

Finally, as you can tell, Coop had a bit of an ego, and sometimes, as with Diana, that worked against her. But oh my, what a player ...



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PickledGinger



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PostPosted: 11/23/20 3:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So good. I didn't know the details about her career in Europe. If respect is what she wants, she's definitely gotten a hell of a lot more of it from me.


WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 11/23/20 3:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A WNBA Title is a WNBA title .
There's no lesser value due to the year or competition . If that were the case the Storm's bubble titled should be devalued .

Coop ran the WNBA from 1997-2000 4 year's straight. She definitely could do it in today's game as well .



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Luuuc
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PostPosted: 11/23/20 7:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I loved Coop. She'll always remain one of my all time favs.
But her greatness is what ultimately makes the Comets 4peat less impressive to me. A brand new league that started out with such talent discrepancy that 4 all time great players ended up on the one team? It's not really that remarkable that they won so much when you look down the rosters of their opponents.
I feel her pain though on the what-ifs of the W starting a decade earlier, and both the league & the fans of Houston making a better attempt of keeping the original dynasty franchise alive. The latter one will always be a stain in the league's history book. Surely the 4th most populous city in the country should be able to sustain a team.



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johnjohnW



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PostPosted: 11/23/20 7:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you haven't listened, check out Wnba Nation's podcast on the history of the Comets. Really great stuff here.

I don't think it's fair to diminish her agreement by saying the W was weaker then or not as good as the NBA. That's not really the point. It's still a historic achievement and completely defines the birth of this league and it it's a shame the team no longer exists. The W never should have let that happen.


johnjohnW



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PostPosted: 11/23/20 7:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
I loved Coop. She'll always remain one of my all time favs.
But her greatness is what ultimately makes the Comets 4peat less impressive to me. A brand new league that started out with such talent discrepancy that 4 all time great players ended up on the one team? It's not really that remarkable that they won so much when you look down the rosters of their opponents.


Right but that same criticism could be made of any dynasty. Men's basketball is dedicated to mini dream teams put together far less organically than the Comets. People love winners and care very little about how fair their creation is. The Comets got lucky because Cooper was highly undervalued and the league overcompensated them for Swoopes being unavailable at first. They still put on a show and defined the era and achieved a 4 peat.


Luuuc
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PostPosted: 11/23/20 9:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

johnjohnW wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
I loved Coop. She'll always remain one of my all time favs.
But her greatness is what ultimately makes the Comets 4peat less impressive to me. A brand new league that started out with such talent discrepancy that 4 all time great players ended up on the one team? It's not really that remarkable that they won so much when you look down the rosters of their opponents.


Right but that same criticism could be made of any dynasty. Men's basketball is dedicated to mini dream teams put together far less organically than the Comets.

Absolutely. Kevin Durant winning back-to-back titles with the Warriors doesn't really leave me awestruck by his achievement. Meanwhile, Coop, SS, Janeth & TT had far less say in winding up on the same superteam.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 11/23/20 9:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If true, the only explanations I can think of as to why ABL founders didn’t want someone who was “leading the top league on the planet in scoring for a decade” would be either they were picking strictly based on college reputation or some influential players lobbied against her.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 11/24/20 10:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

To say "all championships are created equal" really doesn't hold water, I don't think.

But first, winning any team competition four years in a row is a tremendous achievement, no doubt. Titles don't come easy.

Still, the jump from there to saying that "every title is worth the same" is a big one.

Was winning the World Series in 1906, with 16 teams and a much smaller pool of athletes to draw on, an equivalent achievement to winning the World Series in 2014? Did winning an NBA title in 1946 take the same kind of excellence as winning an NBA title in 2016?

And even within the same eras, there are seasons that have more legit championship contenders than others, and thus the road to a title is harder.

To look at lower levels, is winning a state title in Wyoming the same achievement as winning one in Texas? Is winning the MAC the same as winning the SEC?

Of course, these are not national events, but in some ways, the logic is the same. I will agree that the feeling of the teams and players involved is pretty much the same, regardless of level, but from the outside, I think it's hard to argue that all championships deserve precisely the same amount of respect.



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PostPosted: 11/24/20 11:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
To say "all championships are created equal" really doesn't hold water, I don't think.

But first, winning any team competition four years in a row is a tremendous achievement, no doubt. Titles don't come easy.

Still, the jump from there to saying that "every title is worth the same" is a big one.

Was winning the World Series in 1906, with 16 teams and a much smaller pool of athletes to draw on, an equivalent achievement to winning the World Series in 2014? Did winning an NBA title in 1946 take the same kind of excellence as winning an NBA title in 2016?

And even within the same eras, there are seasons that have more legit championship contenders than others, and thus the road to a title is harder.

To look at lower levels, is winning a state title in Wyoming the same achievement as winning one in Texas? Is winning the MAC the same as winning the SEC?

Of course, these are not national events, but in some ways, the logic is the same. I will agree that the feeling of the teams and players involved is pretty much the same, regardless of level, but from the outside, I think it's hard to argue that all championships deserve precisely the same amount of respect.


So pretty much winning a title only means something for that year specifically. Afterwards its not as significant bc the talent level rose ? Just trying to understand .



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miller40



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PostPosted: 11/24/20 12:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Lots of great stuff here ... some comments.

Cooper was unbelievable. I saw her a lot, and she was something. And she was way past her prime -- I can only imagine how good she was at 27.

A great, great player, and like Diana, charismatic and compelling.

Better than Diana? Tough question, just as with MJ and LeBron.

1) Cooper played with Sheryl Swoopes, Tina Thompson and Janeth Arcain (who was MVP of the World Championships one year). It would have been interesting to see what happened with lesser lights around her.


2) The WNBA in the first four years was nothing -- absolutely nothing -- like it is now. The level of play and coaching was much, much lower, and though winning four championships in a row is an achievement anywhere, any time, those four WNBA titles do not compare at all to the degree of difficulty in winning four right now.

And to compare them to the NBA or other leagues is really, sadly, laughable.

Again, Cooper was fabulous, tremendous, in the conversation for GOAT. And she doesn't get enough credit for that, compared to today's players. But there are a lot of great players in a lot of sports who are overlooked for a lot of reasons, so though I sympathize, she's far from alone.

Finally, as you can tell, Coop had a bit of an ego, and sometimes, as with Diana, that worked against her. But oh my, what a player ...


Ok, but look at all of Taurasi’s supporting castmates over the years. She’s played with Pondexter, Griner, Taylor (who was MVP of the World Championships one year)...Bonner, Dupree...


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PostPosted: 11/24/20 12:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Lots of great stuff here ... some comments.

Cooper was unbelievable. I saw her a lot, and she was something. And she was way past her prime -- I can only imagine how good she was at 27.

A great, great player, and like Diana, charismatic and compelling.

Better than Diana? Tough question, just as with MJ and LeBron.

1) Cooper played with Sheryl Swoopes, Tina Thompson and Janeth Arcain (who was MVP of the World Championships one year). It would have been interesting to see what happened with lesser lights around her.


2) The WNBA in the first four years was nothing -- absolutely nothing -- like it is now. The level of play and coaching was much, much lower, and though winning four championships in a row is an achievement anywhere, any time, those four WNBA titles do not compare at all to the degree of difficulty in winning four right now.

And to compare them to the NBA or other leagues is really, sadly, laughable.

Again, Cooper was fabulous, tremendous, in the conversation for GOAT. And she doesn't get enough credit for that, compared to today's players. But there are a lot of great players in a lot of sports who are overlooked for a lot of reasons, so though I sympathize, she's far from alone.

Finally, as you can tell, Coop had a bit of an ego, and sometimes, as with Diana, that worked against her. But oh my, what a player ...


Ok, but look at all of Taurasi’s supporting castmates over the years. She’s played with Pondexter, Griner, Taylor (who was MVP of the World Championships one year)...Bonner, Dupree...


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Bird had Jackson , Stewie , Cash, Lloyd , Sam , Lennox , Howard ...Id say her feats are more significant than DT when it comes to a supporting cast . #GOAT



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 11/24/20 12:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And Catchings won a title and made the playoffs 12 straight years with, uh, yeah...



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PostPosted: 11/24/20 8:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
And Catchings won a title and made the playoffs 12 straight years with, uh, yeah...

Catchings nickname should have been Atlas. Because she did carry that team on those strong shoulders of hers.



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Skyfan22



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PostPosted: 11/25/20 1:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rock Hard wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
And Catchings won a title and made the playoffs 12 straight years with, uh, yeah...

Catchings nickname should have been Atlas. Because she did carry that team on those strong shoulders of hers.


I’ve lobbied for Catchings to be the GOAT. Will say Coop has an argument too. Once she left, the Comets fell apart. She came back for like four games years later, and you could sniff the swagger of the Comets again before she tore her cuff.

As for giving props to those who come later as being better while doling out the accolades-possibly an argument can be made for the opposite. Ladies before the likes of Taurasi should be lauded for their strength as trailblazers while not having a fraction of support the others received. I love DT after all these years, But she came around after all these ladies who faced serious adversity had created a space for her. I don’t agree she should be championed when she didn’t face the difficulties of Coop.

I rarely log onto vote for the best of the WNBA AT 10, 15, 20 or 25. But Coop is an automatic choice.


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PostPosted: 11/25/20 1:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rock Hard wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
And Catchings won a title and made the playoffs 12 straight years with, uh, yeah...

Catchings nickname should have been Atlas. Because she did carry that team on those strong shoulders of hers.


I’ve lobbied for Catchings to be the GOAT. Will say Coop has an argument too. Once she left, the Comets fell apart. She came back for like four games years later, and you could sniff the swagger of the Comets again before she tore her cuff.

As for giving props to those who come later as being better while doling out the accolades-possibly an argument can be made for the opposite. Ladies before the likes of Taurasi should be lauded for their strength as trailblazers while not having a fraction of support the others received. I love DT after all these years, But she came around after all these ladies who faced serious adversity had created a space for her. I don’t agree she should be championed when she didn’t face the difficulties of Coop.

I rarely log onto vote for the best of the WNBA AT 10, 15, 20 or 25. But Coop is an automatic choice.


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PostPosted: 11/25/20 8:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Lots of great stuff here ... some comments.

Cooper was unbelievable. I saw her a lot, and she was something. And she was way past her prime -- I can only imagine how good she was at 27.

A great, great player, and like Diana, charismatic and compelling.

Better than Diana? Tough question, just as with MJ and LeBron.

1) Cooper played with Sheryl Swoopes, Tina Thompson and Janeth Arcain (who was MVP of the World Championships one year). It would have been interesting to see what happened with lesser lights around her.

2) The WNBA in the first four years was nothing -- absolutely nothing -- like it is now. The level of play and coaching was much, much lower, and though winning four championships in a row is an achievement anywhere, any time, those four WNBA titles do not compare at all to the degree of difficulty in winning four right now.

And to compare them to the NBA or other leagues is really, sadly, laughable.

Again, Cooper was fabulous, tremendous, in the conversation for GOAT. And she doesn't get enough credit for that, compared to today's players. But there are a lot of great players in a lot of sports who are overlooked for a lot of reasons, so though I sympathize, she's far from alone.

Finally, as you can tell, Coop had a bit of an ego, and sometimes, as with Diana, that worked against her. But oh my, what a player ...


i think GOAT discussions are always interesting, but also..always inevitably biased but also inevitably well reasoned.

When we talk about potential women GOATs (Cooper, Swoopes, Leslie, Jackson Taurasi, Catchings )..there are pros and cons with every player.

I, surprisingly, think Taurasi is the GOAT. To me it's not a question - but I also know that her defense is a strike against her for many other people. Just like Jackson's longevity or Catchings' offensive skills are a strike against them for me.

I think GOAT discussions are really discussions about what people value in a basketball player.



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Last edited by mercfan3 on 11/25/20 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
mercfan3



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PostPosted: 11/25/20 8:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Lots of great stuff here ... some comments.

Cooper was unbelievable. I saw her a lot, and she was something. And she was way past her prime -- I can only imagine how good she was at 27.

A great, great player, and like Diana, charismatic and compelling.

Better than Diana? Tough question, just as with MJ and LeBron.

1) Cooper played with Sheryl Swoopes, Tina Thompson and Janeth Arcain (who was MVP of the World Championships one year). It would have been interesting to see what happened with lesser lights around her.


2) The WNBA in the first four years was nothing -- absolutely nothing -- like it is now. The level of play and coaching was much, much lower, and though winning four championships in a row is an achievement anywhere, any time, those four WNBA titles do not compare at all to the degree of difficulty in winning four right now.

And to compare them to the NBA or other leagues is really, sadly, laughable.

Again, Cooper was fabulous, tremendous, in the conversation for GOAT. And she doesn't get enough credit for that, compared to today's players. But there are a lot of great players in a lot of sports who are overlooked for a lot of reasons, so though I sympathize, she's far from alone.

Finally, as you can tell, Coop had a bit of an ego, and sometimes, as with Diana, that worked against her. But oh my, what a player ...


Ok, but look at all of Taurasi’s supporting castmates over the years. She’s played with Pondexter, Griner, Taylor (who was MVP of the World Championships one year)...Bonner, Dupree...


Who all, with the exception of Taylor, have had very little success without her.

But that to me, is a silly argument either way. Basketball is a team sport. Taurasi elevates her teammates, but any great player that wins elevates their teammates.

Catchings' teams weren't nearly as "bad" as people claim. They, like her, were pretty bad offensively. But they were incredible defensive teams. Very much built in Catch's image. I actually called them a championship team the year they won about a month before they won, and I got a lot of "yeah rights"



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 11/25/20 10:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Good points about DT -- but did she play with Griner, Taylor and Pondexter, in their primes, for four straight seasons? If that could have happened, how many championships would that team have won?



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PickledGinger



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PostPosted: 11/25/20 1:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If we were talking about a different type GOTE, or Greatest of Their Era, this wouldn't be a discussion.

I think what she's saying is, from a historical standpoint, there is NEVER going to be one GOAT because the game is always going to evolve. In the most practical of ways, it is impossible to ever really compare Cooper and Taurasi because they never competed against eachother.

I can see why Cooper feels disrespected. It is unfortunate that she didn't get more notoriety during her prime, but I also think she shouldn't be too salty about the growth of the sport elevating the profiles of the players that came after her.


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PostPosted: 11/25/20 2:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
Just like Jackson's or Catchings' offensive skills are a strike against them for me..


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PostPosted: 11/25/20 2:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mavcarter wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
Just like Jackson's or Catchings' offensive skills are a strike against them for me..


Shocked


I meant Jackson’s longevity (lack of), she was obviously skilled offensively (although not to the extent that Taurasi is.)



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