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The Rats are Jumping Ship!!

 
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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 11/05/20 9:43 pm    ::: The Rats are Jumping Ship!! Reply Reply with quote

Too bad they couldn't do this 4 years ago. They wait until Trump is on the verge of being voted out to finally do the right thing.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/05/republicans-condemn-trump-after-baseless-claim-election-fraud/6182613002/

Thanks to Luuuc for the title assist!



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Last edited by Ex-Ref on 11/05/20 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
Luuuc
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PostPosted: 11/05/20 9:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think you're confusing growing a spine with rats abandoning a sinking ship



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 11/05/20 10:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
I think you're confusing growing a spine with rats abandoning a sinking ship


So true!!! You said it much better than I did. Thanks for the assist!!!!
I'll go back and edit my title.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 11/06/20 9:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"They" are remarkably few in number, all things considered. Evil or Very Mad

To stand by their party's leader in day-to-day political wranglings is one thing, but to hear him say such utterly UN-democratic things, to the detriment of OUR country and NOT decry his bullshit is preposterous: every Republican should be making public service announcements contradicting his lying propaganda.

Lindsay Graham's continued sycophantic musings are absurd beyond belief, but that's Lindsay; any sane Republicans should know its their own country and its governance that is at stake, and ought to be debunking his bullshit at every possible turn. What have they got to lose now, and has no power over them....he's a goner! Razz



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PostPosted: 11/06/20 11:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

They don't give a shit about Trump

OTOH they care deeply about the 70 million people who voted for him. The most a Republican has ever got and more than Obama got in 8 or 12. All While in the middle of a pandemic that has killed almost a quarter of a million people with cases skyrocketing. Image what would have happened if we kept on a downward trend from the heights in July. We would probably all be very depressed and When Chappelle is on SNL tomorrow they could have done the same sketch they did in 2016 with him and Chris Rock at the election watching party

If they alienate 10% to 20% of those voters by turning on Trump a Republican will find it almost impossible to win Nationally especially as demographics continue to change.

TBH I don't see anyone in the Republican Party being able to pull off the cult of personality thing that Trump is a master of anyway so the right is going to have to find another way if they don't want to be made irrelevant.

Even a defeated Trump will have some say over what happens in 2024 as a king maker unless things change dramatically in the Republican Party.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 12:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
They don't give a shit about Trump

OTOH they care deeply about the 70 million people who voted for him. The most a Republican has ever got and more than Obama got in 8 or 12. All While in the middle of a pandemic that has killed almost a quarter of a million people with cases skyrocketing. Image what would have happened if we kept on a downward trend from the heights in July. We would probably all be very depressed and When Chappelle is on SNL tomorrow they could have done the same sketch they did in 2016 with him and Chris Rock at the election watching party

If they alienate 10% to 20% of those voters by turning on Trump a Republican will find it almost impossible to win Nationally especially as demographics continue to change.

TBH I don't see anyone in the Republican Party being able to pull off the cult of personality thing that Trump is a master of anyway so the right is going to have to find another way if they don't want to be made irrelevant.

Even a defeated Trump will have some say over what happens in 2024 as a king maker unless things change dramatically in the Republican Party.


Except for the pro-Dem outlook or the positivity regarding that side of things... this is spot on. It’s also THE story. The Story of America. At this moment and for probably the rest of any of our lives. This is all we should be talking about.



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 11:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
This is all we should be talking about.


No. NO. NOOO.

"They" might not give a shit about Trump, but they OUGHT TO give a shit about their country. (Yeah, I know....that's an altruism that is unreasonable, given their history)

It is my fervent hope that, between the type of spectacle he continues to make of himself and in the days to come, AND the experience of NY lawsuits he's going to face, that some of the deplorables will finally FINALLY lose faith in him, and the rest of them will continue to demonstrate the limited capacity to follow through with remembering anything that long.

It shall not be quick....a few years, maybe....but it WILL fade.

OTOH....I can see 30-somethings being visited by their grandkids in the nursing homes in 50 years, as they regale their little ones with the Legend of Donald Trump, and how he almost saved America. Rolling Eyes Razz Laughing



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 12:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee, there’s 70 million people there. They’re not all ‘fans’ or supporters.

Do you realize that if Trump had just jeez... tweeted less in 2020... not talked about firing Dr Fauci... if COVID hadn’t happened... had Trump gotten one more stimulus through... had he not disparaged John McCain after his death... so many things... had he just toned it down a little tiny bit... not talked about how the election was going to be fixed even before it happened... if Trump had done ONE of those things, this extremely close election would have almost certainly turned out with him winning a second term in office.

Minimizing any of what just happened has been and would continue to be the same mistake the Democratic Party continues to make. You can’t isolate for scorn and shunning half the voters in the United States. Trump completely and absolutely has only himself to blame for this loss. After all this guy did and said the last five years, the American people, or enough of them in the key states, really wanted to give him a second term. No one can look at these election numbers and not understand what they mean. He was just too fucking crazy and toxic to pull in that last sliver to get him past Biden.

It’s great that he’s gone. (Well, fingers crossed for now.) But those 70 million who voted for him and the other God knows how many who would have voted for him if he’d just been 20% less crazy... they’re here forever and growing in numbers and strength. The Democrats need to find a way to genuinely embrace and govern this country on behalf of those people too or look out for the US to continue to deteriorate into the war-like partisan dystopia we are becoming.



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 12:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Howee, there’s 70 million people there. They’re not all ‘fans’ or supporters. Had Trump just jeez... tweeted less in 2020... not talked about firing Dr Fauci... if COVID hadn’t happened... had Trump gotten one more stimulus through... had he not disparaged John McCain after his death... so many things... had he just toned it down a little tiny bit... not talked about how the election was going to be fixed even before it happened... if Trump had done ONE of those things, this extremely close election would have almost certainly turned out with him winning a second term in office.

Minimizing any of what just happened has been and would continue to be the same mistake the Democratic Party continues to make. You can’t isolate for scorn and shunning half the voters in the United States. Trump completely and absolutely has only himself to blame for this loss. After all this guy did and said the last five years, the American people, or enough of them in the key states, really wanted to give him a second term. No one can look at these election numbers and not understand what they mean. He was just too fucking crazy and toxic to pull in that last sliver to get him past Biden.

It’s great that he’s gone. (Well, fingers crossed for now.) But those 70 million who voted for him and the other God knows how many who would have voted for him if he’d just been 20% less crazy... they’re here forever and growing in numbers and strength. The Democrats need to find a way to genuinely embrace and govern this country on behalf of those people too or look out for the US to continue to deteriorate into the war-like partisan dystopia we are becoming.


That's why I wanted Joe and Kamala. Even if the senate goes red, they have friends, connections and the knowledge of how to get things done in the Senate that Trump didn't have in congress. Trump knew he could count on McConnell and Graham to do whatever he wanted them to. But he couldn't control Pelosi (or McCain).

Trump may have written "The Art of the Deal" but I think that Joe and Kamala are going to give him a lesson on how to actually get the deal DONE!

Now if the dems can only get two more senators. It will be interesting to watch if this presidential win will have any impact on the GA run-off. It's possibly up to GA to determine if the democrats will have all three branches or just the two.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 12:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My gut tells me Biden winning hurts the Dem chances in the run off. Lower Dem turnout as motivation drops from people thinking "we already won" while higher GOP turnout from motivated voters wanting to prevent the trifecta.

Add in the independent voters who like split government to provide checks against each other and I wouldn't be counting on any sort of surprises out of a state that still leans slightly red, regardless of the fact we just watched it turn blue for the presidency.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 12:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Red, blue, Jesus god were fucked.



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 1:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Red, blue, Jesus god were fucked.

Unless something systemic changes within the fundamentals of our democracy, yes we are. And there is little we can do about it no matter how much we scream into the wind because it requires amending our constitution which has become a realitve impossiblity for anything that would require one party or the other to cede some degree of power.

But our rickety old democracy is in a death spiral and it won't be able to pull itself out. It will eventually just crash and burn. We are, for better or worse, locked into a two party system where one of the parties has decided that doing things to try and keep their opponent out of power (voter suppression, gerrymandering, not voting on SCOTUS nominees, etc) along with outmoded rules that also slant against one of the parties to an undemocratic degree (small state bias in Senate and electoral college) is a more desirable course of action than changing their platform to appeal to more of the population.

And this forces the other party to respond in kind (we saw it with talk of court packing, which while arguably basically forced into would have also furthered the death spiral). And around and around we go as the two parties create fractures of "us vs. them" where it isn't enough to try to see the things you believe in slowly take shape, but where you want to see your opponent crushed.

The only way to change this is to : 1) Get rid of the electoral college 2) Create a viable multi-party system (through things like ranked choice voting and finance reform), and 3) mandate independently drawn congressional districts

And there are more tweaks that could help as well.

But none of this will happen until the entire system completely and totally collapses in on itself. Until then, red/blue is all we've got and all we're going to have.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 1:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you’re watching CNN right now, they’re already making fun of the Democrats. It’s a show. Stop buying tickets to the show.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 1:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Red, blue, Jesus god were fucked.

Unless something systemic changes within the fundamentals of our democracy, yes we are. And there is little we can do about it no matter how much we scream into the wind because it requires amending our constitution which has become a realitve impossiblity for anything that would require one party or the other to cede some degree of power.

But our rickety old democracy is in a death spiral and it won't be able to pull itself out. It will eventually just crash and burn. We are, for better or worse, locked into a two party system where one of the parties has decided that doing things to try and keep their opponent out of power (voter suppression, gerrymandering, not voting on SCOTUS nominees, etc) along with outmoded rules that also slant against one of the parties to an undemocratic degree (small state bias in Senate and electoral college) is a more desirable course of action than changing their platform to appeal to more of the population.

And this forces the other party to respond in kind (we saw it with talk of court packing, which while arguably basically forced into would have also furthered the death spiral). And around and around we go as the two parties create fractures of "us vs. them" where it isn't enough to try to see the things you believe in slowly take shape, but where you want to see your opponent crushed.

The only way to change this is to : 1) Get rid of the electoral college 2) Create a viable multi-party system (through things like ranked choice voting and finance reform), and 3) mandate independently drawn congressional districts

And there are more tweaks that could help as well.

But none of this will happen until the entire system completely and totally collapses in on itself. Until then, red/blue is all we've got and all we're going to have.


No. You didn’t understand my comment at all. Because you can only see this one way. Two party system.

This is a problem with one party. OUR party. You have to fix the one party that historically and theoretically is ours to oppose the other party. And we’re fucked until those who associate themselves with Democratic Party politics either as voters or more actively understand that WE HAVE LOST OUR PARTY... our only hope. We can’t control the government if we can’t and don’t have control of our own political party.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 1:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Howee, there’s 70 million people there. They’re not all ‘fans’ or supporters.


Most of them are issue voters. All the Trump voters I know voted on guns or abortion.



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 2:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
justintyme wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Red, blue, Jesus god were fucked.

Unless something systemic changes within the fundamentals of our democracy, yes we are. And there is little we can do about it no matter how much we scream into the wind because it requires amending our constitution which has become a realitve impossiblity for anything that would require one party or the other to cede some degree of power.

But our rickety old democracy is in a death spiral and it won't be able to pull itself out. It will eventually just crash and burn. We are, for better or worse, locked into a two party system where one of the parties has decided that doing things to try and keep their opponent out of power (voter suppression, gerrymandering, not voting on SCOTUS nominees, etc) along with outmoded rules that also slant against one of the parties to an undemocratic degree (small state bias in Senate and electoral college) is a more desirable course of action than changing their platform to appeal to more of the population.

And this forces the other party to respond in kind (we saw it with talk of court packing, which while arguably basically forced into would have also furthered the death spiral). And around and around we go as the two parties create fractures of "us vs. them" where it isn't enough to try to see the things you believe in slowly take shape, but where you want to see your opponent crushed.

The only way to change this is to : 1) Get rid of the electoral college 2) Create a viable multi-party system (through things like ranked choice voting and finance reform), and 3) mandate independently drawn congressional districts

And there are more tweaks that could help as well.

But none of this will happen until the entire system completely and totally collapses in on itself. Until then, red/blue is all we've got and all we're going to have.


No. You didn’t understand my comment at all. Because you can only see this one way. Two party system.

This is a problem with one party. OUR party. You have to fix the one party that historically and theoretically is ours to oppose the other party. And we’re fucked until those who associate themselves with Democratic Party politics either as voters or more actively understand that WE HAVE LOST OUR PARTY... our only hope. We can’t control the government if we can’t and don’t have control of our own political party.


While channel surfing earlier today, I caught part of a show about the US's entry into WWII, and, paraphrasing here, "our success will depend on the will of our young people to defeat America's enemies."

Our success in repairing this country is going to depend on the will of all of our people to defeat our current enemies, which are many, but a broken political system, COVID, and climate change are near the top of the list. I have yet to see our country engage in any serious conversation, let alone substantive action, to deal with any of these things. Collectively, we are just too apathetic and ignorant.

Call me a pessimist, but I have to agree with justintyme that we're going to have to hit rock bottom before any positive change happens, and by the time a solution emerges, none of us are going to be around to see it.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 2:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rock bottom for the next generation but not ours?

For all you good Democrats and progressives, if the election of Donald Trump as President of the United States is not bottom enough, I just don’t know what else you would need. It wasn’t rock bottom for me though because coming from my people and with my different take on politics, I totally understood the Trump vote. But I don’t know how much worse it needs to get for people in the party to wake up.

For me, my bottom came in two moments. Super Tuesday, when the party establishment orchestrated the ascension of Joe to the front of the pack and doomed the candidacies of Warren and Sanders. Someone on Twitter asked an open question to everyone asking whether they could forgive the Democratic Party for what it did this year. I said no. Never. But I’m not alone. The second bottom, the rock bottom, was Joe selecting Kamala Harris as VP. And the celebrations of that that all were about her race and gender. That was a hard bottom for me to hit. The two weakest candidates: a shell of a lying lifelong corrupt political hack who would soon be succeeded by the emptiest most unqualified person to be VP since Dan Quayle.

I don’t know what else on the elective politics front that would be more rock bottom unless we elected Don Jr.

Outside of that realm, yeah, things could get much worse. I’m hoping that all these joyous celebrations either continue as such or quickly just die down and we can all get back o just trying to fight this pandemic. As I have with every president, I wish Joe Biden only to be successful in that job. I couldn’t say it, but I wished Trump to be successful. I hated GWB with a passion. But oh how I wanted his presidency to be a success. Of course, I mean successful on behalf of the country and the betterment of the American people.

I could right a book on what I think the left did wrong during the Trump administration. But thanks to god I never did and will never have to. Wink



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 3:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd consider Trump's presidency to be rock bottom. But we're nowhere near rock bottom as regards COVID and climate change, nor the economic catastrophe which is going to ensue from dealing with them. I also don't see how race and abortion issues are going to turn around instantaneously, to name a couple of others.


Howee



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 4:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Howee, there’s 70 million people there. They’re not all ‘fans’ or supporters.


No, I'm not talking about all the 45 fans....I'm talking about The Republican Elected officials -- THEY are the ones who need to set a new leadership paradigm for the GOP.

Re: all the hoopla/fanfare/whatiffs....I have to say that, since 1980, when I first became politically minded, NO PRESIDENT (45 included) has made my life significantly better OR worse in any real way. Possible exception: Obama's admin promoting the Marriage Equality act. I have not felt the pangs of racism, poverty, immigration, etc.

At a very base level, I'm just glad *he* has no real power any more. If the media continues to blather on about him -- and I listen to it -- then shame on ME. Cool



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PostPosted: 11/07/20 4:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm also talking about rock bottom as far as the complete and utter collapse of American democracy.

There are obviously ideological problems that I would like to see fixed within the party itself, but as long as we continue down the death spiral we are on we are headed for eventual collapse.

If anyone is actually interested in this there is a great book out there by Lee Drutman that gets deep into it:

"Breaking the Two-Party Doom Loop: The Case for Multiparty Democracy in America"

Notably he actually thinks this can be accomplished before the entire system collapses, so he's more optimistic than me (I think it only happens after complete collapse, if there's anything left to rebuild).

ETA- If this interests anyone and they want an epub version of the book, DM me and I can share one with you.



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