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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 11:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
pilight wrote:
Like the vast majority of Americans, the electoral college renders my vote in the presidential election meaningless. I feel no obligation, therefore, to use it in any supposedly meaningful way.

I can't believe that's true unless of course, you vote Libertarian or Green Party....but even then, you COULD vote for Biden purely as a vote against 45.
Georgia is throwing some fascinating poll numbers these days! Cool


If you live in a state that is overwhelmingly red (or blue), and favor the other side, you vote means very little. Living in Indiana, my last presidential vote for HRC was one of the 3 million votes that meant nothing in the last election.

I will still vote, but I don't think that it will matter much.



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taropatch



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 5:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
Howee wrote:
pilight wrote:
Like the vast majority of Americans, the electoral college renders my vote in the presidential election meaningless. I feel no obligation, therefore, to use it in any supposedly meaningful way.

I can't believe that's true unless of course, you vote Libertarian or Green Party....but even then, you COULD vote for Biden purely as a vote against 45.
Georgia is throwing some fascinating poll numbers these days! Cool


If you live in a state that is overwhelmingly red (or blue), and favor the other side, you vote means very little. Living in Indiana, my last presidential vote for HRC was one of the 3 million votes that meant nothing in the last election.

I will still vote, but I don't think that it will matter much.


Thank you for voting. It does matter as it shows up in the popular vote and other metrics. That attitude you refer to of a voter falling in the overwhelmingly minority can also be seen in the overwhelming majority. Here in the 50th state, I could say, "Trump is toast here, so why bother voting", but I will vote. I'm expecting to widen our 32 point margin of 2016.



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 6:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Kinda boggles my mind that people think their vote is worthless in a country where only ~ 60% of the people vote. It's a self-fulfilling piece of defeatism.



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SpaceJunkie



Joined: 10 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: 10/01/20 8:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Like the vast majority of Americans, the electoral college renders my vote in the presidential election meaningless. I feel no obligation, therefore, to use it in any supposedly meaningful way.


That's a dangerous way of thinking in itself.

Wisconsin was blue for 30 years until it wasn't. What state is next?


Hopefully I can help win Minnesota for Trump because I realize how terrible of a mistake I made last time by voting a weak 3rd party candidate instead of Trump.


PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 10/01/20 9:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
I see suggestions that Biden should refuse the other two debates (Frank Bruni had a whole column about this). I don't understand that line of thought at all. As awful as that experience was for most watching, I can't imagine the Biden camp could have come up with a better outcome.


They raised 31 million online post debate.

He’s more likely to add debates


And the news cycle is still focused on how Trump encouraged white supremacist terrorists.

If your opponent continues to publicly set himself on fire, why would you be the one to pull out the fire extinguisher?


Stormeo



Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: 10/01/20 11:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
Kinda boggles my mind that people think their vote is worthless in a country where only ~ 60% of the people vote. It's a self-fulfilling piece of defeatism.

Absolutely spot-on, Luuuc. Honestly, one of the biggest reason a person should vote would be to choose which candidate in any given race (not just the one for President) is most likely to help out the most marginalized communities, assuming none of the candidates in a race you think will make a direct impact on you. I find it incredibly selfish not to vote, considering - even now - it’s one of our pillars of democracy, and the voting process will affect a group of people somewhere in your state/country, whether you think so or not. It’s certainly not a perfect system, but for many many people, it’s the only power we have as citizens.



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 12:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Kinda boggles my mind that people think their vote is worthless in a country where only ~ 60% of the people vote. It's a self-fulfilling piece of defeatism.

Absolutely spot-on, Luuuc. Honestly, one of the biggest reason a person should vote would be to choose which candidate in any given race (not just the one for President) is most likely to help out the most marginalized communities, assuming none of the candidates in a race you think will make a direct impact on you. I find it incredibly selfish not to vote, considering - even now - it’s one of our pillars of democracy, and the voting process will affect a group of people somewhere in your state/country, whether you think so or not. It’s certainly not a perfect system, but for many many people, it’s the only power we have as citizens.


My vote next Tuesday (I do early voting) will still be rolled into an electoral vote for a child that isn't fit for the office. I guess I do it in hopes that this state will wake the hell up and realize what is happening to our country.

Probably defines insanity.



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 10/01/20 12:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
My vote next Tuesday (I do early voting) will still be rolled into an electoral vote for a child that isn't fit for the office. I guess I do it in hopes that this state will wake the hell up and realize what is happening to our country.
Probably defines insanity.
Laughing Laughing NOOO....NOT voting is the crazy thing.
As stated above:
taropatch wrote:
Thank you for voting. It does matter as it shows up in the popular vote and other metrics. That attitude you refer to of a voter falling in the overwhelmingly minority can also be seen in the overwhelming majority.

Yeah, it's easy to feel despair when your electoral vote is a foregone conclusion, BUT: by voting against 45, you still tally into the NATIONAL numbers, and join those of us, your Fellow Americans, who rally their voices against the REAL insanity: The Republican Way.

And, as merc pointed out, states DO flip....and that only happens when voter turnout is high. Never give up on the Hoosier state! Cool



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pilight



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 1:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As we saw four years ago, popular vote is irrelevant when it comes to the presidency



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 1:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
My vote next Tuesday (I do early voting) will still be rolled into an electoral vote for a child that isn't fit for the office. I guess I do it in hopes that this state will wake the hell up and realize what is happening to our country.

Probably defines insanity.


The only children I see are mostly members of the Democratic Party, which to me makes it seems as if Trump must be doing a great job, and it's the Democrats and other people who don't like Trump who want to destroy America.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 13062
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 10/01/20 2:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
As we saw four years ago, popular vote is irrelevant when it comes to the presidency

Yep. It can happen. But most often it doesn't go that way and, likewise, a landslide can't happen if people get apathetic and don't vote.

SpaceJunkie wrote:
Ex-Ref wrote:
My vote next Tuesday (I do early voting) will still be rolled into an electoral vote for a child that isn't fit for the office. I guess I do it in hopes that this state will wake the hell up and realize what is happening to our country.

Probably defines insanity.


The only children I see are mostly members of the Democratic Party, which to me makes it seems as if Trump must be doing a great job, and it's the Democrats and other people who don't like Trump who want to destroy America.


Even with your 'cleaned up' (from the original) post, I can't get a clear bead on what your point is here. Can you further clarify?



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SpaceJunkie



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 3:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Even with your 'cleaned up' (from the original) post, I can't get a clear bead on what your point is here. Can you further clarify?


It means instead of me being outraged/scared, I should have confidence that Trump will still win.


tfan



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 6:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
It’s certainly not a perfect system, but for many many people, it’s the only power we have as citizens.


For the citizens to have legitimate power they need to get money out of politics - make it illegal to contribute private money to a politician or party. Right now we have headlines about how much money a candidate raised in some period which will mean that the candidate can then blanket the airwaves with their propaganda, otherwise known as political advertisements. In order to get information on candidates you should have to go to a government website or a government provided section of the library or listen to them on the radio or TV during government mandated broadcasts. They can still lie, but it would be equal opportunity lying and with no strings attached to the donor class.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 7:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
It’s certainly not a perfect system, but for many many people, it’s the only power we have as citizens.


For the citizens to have legitimate power they need to get money out of politics - make it illegal to contribute private money to a politician or party. Right now we have headlines about how much money a candidate raised in some period which will mean that the candidate can then blanket the airwaves with their propaganda, otherwise known as political advertisements. In order to get information on candidates you should have to go to a government website or a government provided section of the library or listen to them on the radio or TV during government mandated broadcasts. They can still lie, but it would be equal opportunity lying and with no strings attached to the donor class.


That's a good idea for an ideal world. However, 3/4's of the people in the US wouldn't bother to listen to those broadcasts but get their information from what some anonymous dude tweeted about those broadcasts anyway.

I think cleaning up the debates would be a good starting point. It needs to be clear to both candidates that they need to follow the rules and be respectful or their speaking time will be given to the other guy. Besides the moderator, have a referee to give out yellow and red cards.


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SpaceJunkie wrote:
Ex-Ref wrote:
My vote next Tuesday (I do early voting) will still be rolled into an electoral vote for a child that isn't fit for the office. I guess I do it in hopes that this state will wake the hell up and realize what is happening to our country.

Probably defines insanity.


The only children I see are mostly members of the Democratic Party, which to me makes it seems as if Trump must be doing a great job, and it's the Democrats and other people who don't like Trump who want to destroy America.


Are the rest of us expected to have an adult conversation with somebody who posts like this?

And why the fuck doesn't this message board have an Ignore function?



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 10:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I listened to this on my way to Michigan today. Pretty scary stuff here.

Quote:
In the first presidential debate, President Trump was asked if he would refrain from declaring victory until the election has been independently certified. He refused to make that commitment.

Quote:
"That's a man who won't leave," Gellman says. "There are many aspects of his past behavior and, frankly, his pathology that lead me to think this is an immutable decision on his part."

Quote:
Gellman writes about the 2020 presidential election — and how he thinks it could trigger a constitutional crisis — in his latest article for The Atlantic. He notes that typically elections are ended when one candidate concedes to the other. It's a system, he says, that "presumes good behavior and presumes that a rational and well-meaning candidate will accept reality when it comes."

But Gellman does not trust a scenario that relies upon good faith from the president: "Trump is making as absolutely plain as he can that he will fight the mail vote, that he will try to get the vote count stopped, and that he will not accept any result that is not a victory for him."


https://www.npr.org/2020/10/01/919023364/trump-will-not-accept-any-result-that-is-not-a-victory-atlantic-writer-says



_________________
"The biggest antidote to his poison is the vote.” — Nancy Pelosi

"Our democracy is designed to speak truth to power." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

"If this guy can be Senator, you can do anything." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 10/01/20 10:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One somewhat calming thought (for me, even though I refuse to be confident and get blindsided like 2016) is that after the debate for the first time I started to think it was possible that Biden might win the in person vote on November 3rd both popular and electoral (maybe avoiding what seemed likely before the debate; Trump winning on the night and Biden passing Trump in days that followed based on mail in votes which would lead to a horror show). If that happens I think it will be a lot harder for Trump to claim an illegitimate election.

I hope the idea that Trump is going to refuse to leave is being over stated, or the idea that there are not the mechanism in place to guard against that are being understated. I do think if the vote is close we will have a few months of legal challenges and it will lead to unrest.

OTOH (and this possibility seems to not be discussed) even as awful as it looks for Trump atm I don't think it is out of the question that he could still win the electoral college when all is said and done and therefor the presidency and I think it will be just as hard (if not harder) for the left to accept that outcome of Trump winning as it will be for Trump to accept the outcome of his losing, and I expect huge protests if Trump wins and intense legal and political challenges.

In short a (close to) Biden landslide on election night seems like the only possible outcome that will not drag this out until at least January and create potentially dangerous civil unrest on both sides. Now that I think about it I hope everyone who can will consider voting in person in a safe way.

On that note I have no idea why in the extraordinary circumstances of the pandemic we can't open the polls starting the Friday before November 3rd to create an easier and safer environment for in person voting, while creating some work opportunity for poll workers and security. DO what the grocery store do and create senior only, high risk only times, etc.


tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 10/02/20 12:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
I listened to this on my way to Michigan today. Pretty scary stuff here.

Quote:
In the first presidential debate, President Trump was asked if he would refrain from declaring victory until the election has been independently certified. He refused to make that commitment.

Quote:
"That's a man who won't leave," Gellman says. "There are many aspects of his past behavior and, frankly, his pathology that lead me to think this is an immutable decision on his part."

Quote:
Gellman writes about the 2020 presidential election — and how he thinks it could trigger a constitutional crisis — in his latest article for The Atlantic. He notes that typically elections are ended when one candidate concedes to the other. It's a system, he says, that "presumes good behavior and presumes that a rational and well-meaning candidate will accept reality when it comes."

But Gellman does not trust a scenario that relies upon good faith from the president: "Trump is making as absolutely plain as he can that he will fight the mail vote, that he will try to get the vote count stopped, and that he will not accept any result that is not a victory for him."


https://www.npr.org/2020/10/01/919023364/trump-will-not-accept-any-result-that-is-not-a-victory-atlantic-writer-says


When a TV host or similar tries to force Trump's hand his natural reaction is to not go along with what they say. If you ask him to commit to accepting the election he will not do it even though he has no plans to not leave the White House. Just like when you ask him to condemn white supremacists at a debate he will refuse to do it even when he already did it right after he said "very fine people on both sides" and at other times.


tfan



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 12:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
tfan wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
It’s certainly not a perfect system, but for many many people, it’s the only power we have as citizens.


For the citizens to have legitimate power they need to get money out of politics - make it illegal to contribute private money to a politician or party. Right now we have headlines about how much money a candidate raised in some period which will mean that the candidate can then blanket the airwaves with their propaganda, otherwise known as political advertisements. In order to get information on candidates you should have to go to a government website or a government provided section of the library or listen to them on the radio or TV during government mandated broadcasts. They can still lie, but it would be equal opportunity lying and with no strings attached to the donor class.


That's a good idea for an ideal world. However, 3/4's of the people in the US wouldn't bother to listen to those broadcasts but get their information from what some anonymous dude tweeted about those broadcasts anyway.


Then that's their choice and they must already be listening to what some anonymous dude tweeted on the internet. I don't see how listening to someone else's opinion is worse than them getting a flood of political propaganda paid for and designed by the donor class and the Washington elite.


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 12:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Except, here's the thing: we don't know that Trump has no plans to not leave the White House, because Trump has made it his brand to eschew the customs and traditions that have been set forth by his predecessors.

As far as Trump "condemning" white supremacy, if you think that those tepid-as-fuck remarks that he made after saying that there were "very fine people on both sides," if those counted for you as an adequate condemnation of white supremacy, well... I'll just say that the bar is so low for that guy, that it's in hell, and keep it moving.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 9:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
Except, here's the thing: we don't know that Trump has no plans to not leave the White House, because Trump has made it his brand to eschew the customs and traditions that have been set forth by his predecessors.


But the only reason anyone thinks it is a good possibility is because all the lawyers and ex-spies and the like who have Trump Derangement Syndrome and are given airtime on TV to repeatedly make all kinds of alarmist statements for those looking for that stuff in order to boost ratings.


Quote:
As far as Trump "condemning" white supremacy, if you think that those tepid-as-fuck remarks that he made after saying that there were "very fine people on both sides," if those counted for you as an adequate condemnation of white supremacy, well... I'll just say that the bar is so low for that guy, that it's in hell, and keep it moving.



I give you credit for realizing or admitting that he did say something else after the "very fine people on both sides". Most people don't, including the Democratic presidential nominee who falsely claimed at his campaign kickoff, and at his convention that Trump only said the first part. And he falsely maintains that Trump was referring to the suspicious group of people with torches the night before the statue-removal-protest rather than the people at the removal protest where the conflict took place. Even though Trump is used to attacking back after he is criticized rather than defending himself, he still should have known that correcting Biden's lies was important. That could be a the honest rallying cry of The Resistance - "When Biden falsely accuses Trump of having said "fine people on both sides" with no qualification, Trump hasn't corrected him with the truth - proving that Trump likes white supremacists".


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 11:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sorry, I can't take take people seriously who say things like "Trump Derangement Syndrome" unironically.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 12:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It’s funny that tfan thinks there’s so much riding on the Charlottesville incident, like this is the only time that Trump has ever looked like a white nationalist. He has a huge racist body of work that I’ve already laid down for you before.

It’s also pretty disingenuous for Trump to differentiate between peaceful protestors and those just looking to create mayhem at a rally he approves of, which are the protests to remove statues honoring those who fought against abolitionism (such as Robert E Lee). I wouldn’t exactly label even peaceful protestors at such a rally as “fine people”. Maybe Biden feels the same way? Have you seen Trump make such an big effort to differentiate between peaceful protestors and anarchists at any BLM protest? I really don’t think he cares, otherwise why would he be gassing “fine people” outside the White House? Why would he be referring to BLM protests in general as mobs? Yeah, I wonder.

You think you caught Biden in a “lie” even though a reasonable person even with your viewpoints could say he was mistaken? Biden wasn’t lying.

Now let’s see you explain away Trump’s tens of thousands of lies. I think you have that kind of time.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 1:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
Sorry, I can't take take people seriously who say things like "Trump Derangement Syndrome" unironically.


Laughing Laughing TRUTH!

And, speaking of *irony*, (especially after the last debate) it all comes back to roost now as "Trump's Derangement Syndrome".



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tfan



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 3:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
It’s funny that tfan thinks there’s so much riding on the Charlottesville incident, like this is the only time that Trump has ever looked like a white nationalist. He has a huge racist body of work that I’ve already laid down for you before.


Be precise. You couldn't lay down a "huge racist body of work". You could only lay down a "huge body of work that in your opinion is racist".

Quote:
It’s also pretty disingenuous for Trump to differentiate between peaceful protestors and those just looking to create mayhem at a rally he approves of, which are the protests to remove statues honoring those who fought against abolitionism (such as Robert E Lee). I wouldn’t exactly label even peaceful protestors at such a rally as “fine people”. Maybe Biden feels the same way? Have you seen Trump make such an big effort to differentiate between peaceful protestors and anarchists at any BLM protest? I really don’t think he cares, otherwise why would he be gassing “fine people” outside the White House? Why would he be referring to BLM protests in general as mobs? Yeah, I wonder.


Trump's "very fine people" comment was likely motivated by the fact that the people who came to beat up on the statue protesters are considered virtuous and given a free pass by the media. And the no-statue-removal protesters are given the opposite treatment. The New York Times interviewed three people who had gone to the statue protest in support of free speech - the right of people to protest taking down the statue which they knew was going to be challenged. However the CNN "fact checker" claims not to know about that and says that Trump's exclusion of Nazis and white supremacists from "very fine people" is "specious" because there is no evidence that any of the protesters were not white supremacists. Of course, there is no evidence that all of them were either, but the "fact checker" missed that part.

Quote:
You think you caught Biden in a “lie” even though a reasonable person even with your viewpoints could say he was mistaken? Biden wasn’t lying.


We have to disagree on whether an reasonable person would think that Biden wasn't lying. Just omitting the "I am not talking about the Nazis and white supremacists, who should be condemned totally" is a huge lie by omission. And even an unreasonable person could see that there were no people at the afternoon statue-removal protest (where the angry counter-protest mob descended on the protesters as they left their fenced in park which is what Trump was discussing) with torches and veins bursting on their necks. And Biden makes sure to always mention that suspicious nighttime group.

Quote:
Now let’s see you explain away Trump’s tens of thousands of lies. I think you have that kind of time.


Why would I need to explain away a lie when I have never said that Trump doesn't lie? And you didn't explain away Biden's big lie. Biden made the most severe lie you could make in the eyes of the left and you and they forgave him for it without him even having to acknowledge it or apologize for it. And when you have made over 55,000 posts on a board as you have, making statements about someone else "having the free time" doesn't quite work.




Last edited by tfan on 10/02/20 7:32 pm; edited 8 times in total
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