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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 8:25 pm    ::: Presidential Debate Reply Reply with quote

Twenty minutes in and this is a joke.

Trump is a punk and that's all he is and all he can ever be.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 12:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

OK I am left, but utterly unenthused by Biden, and I am a contrarian often in the past being hyper-critical of the left and fascinated by Trumps ability to do something so wrong or counter-intuitive to how things have been done in the past and still come out on top.

With that said I thought Biden did an adequate job. He seemed much more the adult in the room, and while he didn't impress me with any of his plans or ideas, he came across as moderately likable, and even with a few stumbles he didn't seem the faded, failing old man with dementia which many may have feared and Trump intended to build his campaign around. In fact I would go a step further and say if you compare Trump's debate performance in the 2016 debates and tonight it is Trump who looks like her is fading or at least losing grip on his own worst tendencies which is needed to give just enough of an appearance of control that when he does go off the rails it can be viewed as a intentional choice as opposed to a loss of control.

I had predicted that Trump would eat Biden's lunch not only did that not happen but Trump seemed unhinged, quite literally crazy and not crazy like a fox, just straight up crazy (even if there was some possible intent on Trump's part to make the debate so awful that Biden decides to not do the other ones and Trump can claim he was scared).

I doubt that any died in the red hat trump supporter will be turned off by his performance but I can't imagine anyone with any question about who they were going to vote for could watch tonight's debate and say "I want to vote for the crazy one". Biden didn't't have to land any punches because Trump was punching himself in the face.

Fifteen minutes into the debate Fox News commentator/moderate Chris Wallace wanted to punch Trump in the face as well. He even tried to help him by saying things like "you are going to like this question if you let me ask it".

Trump was straight up crazy town, to the point where he couldn't even land his punches, he clearly wanted to mention Hunter Biden, The Green New Deal, socialism, Antifa and so on but did it in a way where instead of weaving it into the discussion he just seemed like a drunk Grandpa yelling "Moscow mayor, antifa, Bernie, Green New Deal, socialism, etc." He actually tried to argue that Biden's authoring of the crime bill in the 90s was devastating to the black community but he did it so poorly it didn't land or make sense.

Biden failed to answer if he would pack the Supreme Court but Trump couldn't even condemn white supremacy so even to Trump supporters that must seem like a wash at best. Trump also failed to answer what his plan would be to replace Obamacare. He made an interesting point about lowering drug costs by allowing states to shop for medicine Internationally and under cutting big Pharma but failed to say what else was in his plan leaving me as a viewer very concerned that in four years with a deep hatred for the affordable care act there wasn't even a few sentence answer to that question that didn't sound like gibberish. Biden at least made an attempt at explaining how his energy deal wasn't the green new deal and how he didn't want to abolish the police.

Trump's biggest fail IMO was not approaching the covid crisis with more empathy and hope. He could definitely spin re-opening as a way to care for the millions struggling, talked positively about a vaccine and the machinery being put in place to get it out quickly, and without admitting mistake (as I believe that is simply not in Trump's playbook) but could have come across even more committed to fixing the problem as part of the strategy as fixing the economy. But instead he lived in this world where her did a great job, and everything will be fixed by the election, which even for his supporters must seem like a stretch so why not recalibrate it as now we are even more committed to fixing it, but instead came across as annoyed by its existence, offering no empathy to those who have contracted it or died from it or lost someone, didn't do a good job empathizing with the pain of lock down and the economic hardship he could have spun pushing re-opening as a way to help small businesses and going back to school as a way to help parents, and kids education and said now we know how to do these things safely with social distancing, masks, temp check etc.Even if not completely accurate framing re-opening in those terms and striving even harder to defeat covid could have been presented hand in hand. I think he had the opportunity to spin the covid situation to his advantage but he failed because empathy or any attempt to say I will do even better still contains the reality that he didn't do well enough and people are suffering.

Anyway what I am most shocked by is that Trump didn't perform better, and the way the debate went, which was completely insane wasn't shocking at all. I doubt the future debates happen and I am not sure who that works better for. ATM the debate was so out of the ordinary that I can't imagine future debates helping either candidate.


Conway Gamecock



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 1:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Biden didn't do that great of a job -

incidentally I am usually not that impressed with televised debates as they are more along the lines of photo ops in video, giving more "staged" responses by candidates to "staged" questions, where neither do that great a job of representing what the people need most to hear, nor what the candidates need most to say -

but he was far more presidential, and a lot of what he DIDN'T get accomplished in getting across his message had more to do with the man at his right constantly interrupting and talking over him, chiding him into responding and bullying his focus off of actually staying on topic and answering Mike Wallace's questions, than it had to do with Biden not having any message to deliver.

It would have been better had Biden been successful in not responding at trump with his "shut up, man" and "clown...I mean person" remarks: I do not necessarily blame Biden for saying those things, as trump was a total embarrassment during the debate, and it seemed his only plan for the debate was to try to fluster Biden into responding like he did, which he was successful.

But it also would have made the horribly poor impression that trump made as the President of the United States that much more starkly obvious, had Biden been able to keep himself disassociated from trump's temper tantrum display, and let the viewing nation take trump's theatre in.

Trump for his part treated the debate as a total farce and joke. Considering that this nation is in the midst of a horrible pandemic, economic collapse, and racial disharmony, his efforts to totally disrupt an attempt for the People to learn more about who may be our Commander in Chief for the next 4 years, and what they plan to do about all these crises we're floundering in, was actually illuminating.

It gave us a great idea of just HOW the country found itself in such a mess we've been in, over those past 4 years.

It also makes the point of either of the next 2 planned presidential debates moot. Unless they change the rules of the debates: since there's not going to be much of a crowd at these things anyways, instead of putting the 2 candidates on a stage, put two huge flatscreen TVs. Have each candidate stand in a sound-proofed glass box, like phone booths, with their microphones. Use the same time constraints, except in this case, if they talk over each other's 2-minute allotments or try to talk past their own allotments, hit a mute button on each to shut them up.

Then for the 3-minute "open discussion", establish rules that they stay on topic and refrain from the childish taunts, etc. we saw last night, or mute both of them.

But trump's campaign most likely would refuse to accept those rules, because all trump has to offer, are the same old, countlessly debunked lies and bullying tactics to bulldoze any credible debate. So he wouldn't allow for that to be taken away.....


Conway Gamecock



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 1:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:

Anyway what I am most shocked by is that Trump didn't perform better, and the way the debate went, which was completely insane wasn't shocking at all. I doubt the future debates happen and I am not sure who that works better for. ATM the debate was so out of the ordinary that I can't imagine future debates helping either candidate.


Good observations. I quoted the final part because most of the media outlets were conceding that this debate did little to helping EITHER Trump or Biden. The thing is, that's actually a positive for Biden, if all the national polls mean anything. Biden holds a lead in most all polls, and has done so for a long while. It is Trump who needs to made headways into the public's perceptions more than Biden, so for him to run in place is not I'm sure what his campaign people are wanting.

One big issue that has been touched on leading into this debate: Trump and many of his most ardent supporters were making such a huge play on Biden's "cognitive" wherewithal, that many felt this was a self-made booby trap for Trump. Their efforts were truly making a real dent in the thinking of more moderate conservatives who may not like Trump all that much, but were concerned that Biden was too far gone mentally to take over the reigns. The concern was, if Biden actually showed himself to be sharp and focused, it would cut into that fabrication. Worse, if Biden showed himself to be more "Presidential" in his conduct and answering Wallace's questions than Trump did (Trump has NEVER cared that much about looking presidential), then it could be a huge blow-back against the Trump campaign.

IMO, Trump tried his best to fluster and provoke Biden into acting un-wieldy in his comportment, that he actually gave more ammunition to Biden's team than he created for his own. But if we have future debates, which I agree is looking pretty dim now, don't expect much more from Trump. He loathes preparation, and refuses to study up on policy matters and minutia. He did this the exact same way during his debates against Jeb Bush and then against Hillary Clinton - it was just that then, he was not the sitting President, and didn't have to spend much time defending his own policy platforms, and instead just attacked both Bush and Clinton like tonight, with mostly false, and misleading statements against them.

The difference now, is that the false statements are about his own failed policies, not others. People are hurting across the nation as a result, so having to listen to repetitive lies that have been thoroughly exposed months if not years ago, from a man who refuses to take responsibility for actions he demanded Bush and Clinton take, should rub a lot of those moderate conservatives expecting more from their federal leaders the wrong way. If anything, it should prove once and for all, that the only thing we'll get with 4 more years under Trump, is the promise of the same exact thing we've gotten the last 4 years.....


Luuuc
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PostPosted: 09/30/20 2:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

At this point are any of these things going to change the mind of even a single voter in terms of who they are siding with? Surely no one is undecided at this point.

Given it was the talk of the internet today I tuned in after the WNBA game was done, but I literally didn't last 60 seconds. It was a painful mess.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 5:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

These "debates" should have the mike cut of the person who is not being given the time to talk. I assume they don't do that because it is considered better for ratings to allow the interruptions.


Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 7:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Have each candidate stand in a sound-proofed glass box, like phone booths, with their microphones. Use the same time constraints, except in this case, if they talk over each other's 2-minute allotments or try to talk past their own allotments, hit a mute button on each to shut them up.


As I was watching this last night, I kept hoping for one to drop down from the ceiling encasing Trump. Then later, after the debate, anything that was said while they were muted could be played back. At least give us, the people, a chance to make an informed opinion. If either side disagrees with the terms, they forfeit 25% of their electoral votes.

Either that or put a shock collar on them. (As I am re-reading this before posting I see that I typed "him" instead of "them." Oops.)

Dana Bash called it a shit show. I think that she was being kind.



_________________
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"Our democracy is designed to speak truth to power." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

"If this guy can be Senator, you can do anything." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 8:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
At this point are any of these things going to change the mind of even a single voter in terms of who they are siding with?


Not only no, but hell no.

Quote:
Surely no one is undecided at this point.


AFAIC, anybody who claims to be "undecided" at this point either 1) just woke up from a 1500+ day coma, or is voting for Trump, but is ashamed to admit that they're voting for Trump in public.


Also, they need to hire Tony Reali to moderate these things.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 9:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
Quote:
Have each candidate stand in a sound-proofed glass box, like phone booths, with their microphones. Use the same time constraints, except in this case, if they talk over each other's 2-minute allotments or try to talk past their own allotments, hit a mute button on each to shut them up.


As I was watching this last night, I kept hoping for one to drop down from the ceiling encasing Trump. Then later, after the debate, anything that was said while they were muted could be played back. At least give us, the people, a chance to make an informed opinion. If either side disagrees with the terms, they forfeit 25% of their electoral votes.

Either that or put a shock collar on them. (As I am re-reading this before posting I see that I typed "him" instead of "them." Oops.)

Dana Bash called it a shit show. I think that she was being kind.


AAAAA-men. Razz So very little 'real' policy was mentioned (I do remember Joe fitting in some spiel about green energy jobs replacing fossil fuel jobs), and the personal shit was knee deep.

Some points I pondered:

When Trump was trying to defy Joe being "smart" with his college comments, I wish Joe had asked Don to submit HIS college transcripts.

Also, I was not shocked but rather amazed that 45 simply CAN. NOT. say he denounces white supremacy. He told the "Proud Boys" to "stand down, and stand by!" Shocked Laughing

The "Fact Checking" proved what anyone/everyone already knows, that 45 lied by far the most of either one.



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 11:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think the choice people are making are the ones that are choosing between not voting or voting for one of the candidates.

My guess is Donald’s performance last night encouraged people on the fence about him to stay home, and perhaps people on the fence about Joe Biden to vote for Joe Biden.

But I don’t think Joe Biden’s performance did anything to influence anyone.



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 12:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The "Settle for Biden" signs, memes, and jokes are getting a lot of play around here. I feel sick when I think that either of these candidates could be taken as the best our country has to offer. Or that voters don't deserve something better than this debate process. TBH, I don't think I'm even going to vote in the presidential election. I just can't stomach any of this. (I will vote in state elections.)


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 1:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
The "Settle for Biden" signs, memes, and jokes are getting a lot of play around here. I feel sick when I think that either of these candidates could be taken as the best our country has to offer. Or that voters don't deserve something better than this debate process. TBH, I don't think I'm even going to vote in the presidential election. I just can't stomach any of this. (I will vote in state elections.)


Whenever people say stuff like this, the only thing I hear is, "You know, I'm pretty sure that I'm insulated by enough privilege that I can ride this shit out." I fucking wish that I could afford to hold out for "the best our country has to offer." I have to vote pragmatically, Hierarchy of Needs, and all that. And Number One on my hierarchy of needs is, I need to get Donald Trump out of the White House. Not now, but right now. Everything else can be figured out, later, but that motherfucker has got. To. GO! Anybody who thinks that Biden would be more of the same, just isn't living the same experience that I am.




"No, Calvin. This is different!"



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 1:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
The "Settle for Biden" signs, memes, and jokes are getting a lot of play around here. I feel sick when I think that either of these candidates could be taken as the best our country has to offer. Or that voters don't deserve something better than this debate process. TBH, I don't think I'm even going to vote in the presidential election. I just can't stomach any of this. (I will vote in state elections.)


Whenever people say stuff like this, the only thing I hear is, "You know, I'm pretty sure that I'm insulated by enough privilege that I can ride this shit out." I fucking wish that I could afford to hold out for "the best our country has to offer." I have to vote pragmatically, Hierarchy of Needs, and all that. And Number One on my hierarchy of needs is, I need to get Donald Trump out of the White House. Not now, but right now. Everything else can be figured out, later, but that motherfucker has got. To. GO! Anybody who thinks that Biden would be more of the same, just isn't living the same experience that I am."


And you're not living the experience that I am either. You know nothing about me or what I've been through this year. So please don't presume.


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 2:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I presume nothing. However, comma, if you're willing to opt out of voting for president, it's reasonable to conclude that you are, at most, minimally affected by the president's policies. Because, if you were more than minimally affected by the president's policies, then not voting for president is not a thought that you would even entertain.



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
I presume nothing. However, comma, if you're willing to opt out of voting for president, it's reasonable to conclude that you are, at most, minimally affected by the president's policies. Because, if you were more than minimally affected by the president's policies, then not voting for president is not a thought that you would even entertain.


As I said, you know nothing about me. Your conclusion may appear reasonable, but it's incorrect.


Howee



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 2:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
The "Settle for Biden" signs, memes, and jokes are getting a lot of play around here. I feel sick when I think that either of these candidates could be taken as the best our country has to offer. Or that voters don't deserve something better than this debate process. TBH, I don't think I'm even going to vote in the presidential election. I just can't stomach any of this. (I will vote in state elections.)


Whenever people say stuff like this, the only thing I hear is, "You know, I'm pretty sure that I'm insulated by enough privilege that I can ride this shit out." I fucking wish that I could afford to hold out for "the best our country has to offer." I have to vote pragmatically, Hierarchy of Needs, and all that. And Number One on my hierarchy of needs is, I need to get Donald Trump out of the White House. Not now, but right now. Everything else can be figured out, later, but that motherfucker has got. To. GO! Anybody who thinks that Biden would be more of the same, just isn't living the same experience that I am."


And you're not living the experience that I am either. You know nothing about me or what I've been through this year. So please don't presume.

Assumptions are fraught with errors, but....BUT....if your discussion points here in Area 51 are any indicator, Frozen, I'd think it's a very safe assumption that Trump will do you NO good whatsoever, and you're aware of the harm that's been done already, never mind another 4 years. What is 'gained' by NOT voting?? Shocked



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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 2:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Like the vast majority of Americans, the electoral college renders my vote in the presidential election meaningless. I feel no obligation, therefore, to use it in any supposedly meaningful way.



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 5:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Like the vast majority of Americans, the electoral college renders my vote in the presidential election meaningless. I feel no obligation, therefore, to use it in any supposedly meaningful way.


That's a dangerous way of thinking in itself.

Wisconsin was blue for 30 years until it wasn't. What state is next?



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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 5:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Like the vast majority of Americans, the electoral college renders my vote in the presidential election meaningless. I feel no obligation, therefore, to use it in any supposedly meaningful way.


That's a dangerous way of thinking in itself.

Wisconsin was blue for 30 years until it wasn't. What state is next?


Let's put it this way, the smarter of the two senators from my state touts her "100% Trump voting record" in ads because she knows it will help her in the election. If Trump loses here, he's on the bad end of a Mondale-level blowout.



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 5:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Like the vast majority of Americans, the electoral college renders my vote in the presidential election meaningless.


Maybe it wouldn't, if we could do something about the voter suppression around here.

Georgia is 30 percent Black. It's not a Red state; it's a Blue state, in bondage.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 5:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Like the vast majority of Americans, the electoral college renders my vote in the presidential election meaningless. I feel no obligation, therefore, to use it in any supposedly meaningful way.

I can't believe that's true unless of course, you vote Libertarian or Green Party....but even then, you COULD vote for Biden purely as a vote against 45.
Georgia is throwing some fascinating poll numbers these days! Cool



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tfan



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 9:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There has been a need for "microphone cutting" for decades. In an actual debate I don't think you can talk over your opponent at all. But even now, after the largest talking-out-of-turn in history, it is only being considered by the debate commission,


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 9:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I see suggestions that Biden should refuse the other two debates (Frank Bruni had a whole column about this). I don't understand that line of thought at all. As awful as that experience was for most watching, I can't imagine the Biden camp could have come up with a better outcome.


mercfan3



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 10:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
I see suggestions that Biden should refuse the other two debates (Frank Bruni had a whole column about this). I don't understand that line of thought at all. As awful as that experience was for most watching, I can't imagine the Biden camp could have come up with a better outcome.


They raised 31 million online post debate.

He’s more likely to add debates



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 11:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
I think the choice people are making are the ones that are choosing between not voting or voting for one of the candidates.

My guess is Donald’s performance last night encouraged people on the fence about him to stay home, and perhaps people on the fence about Joe Biden to vote for Joe Biden.

But I don’t think Joe Biden’s performance did anything to influence anyone.


I talked to someone today that. through previous conversations. I had assumed was voting for Trump. Today this person told me that they hadn't planed on voting, but that the debate had changed their mind and they would now vote.

I have no idea what that really means about who they may be voting for.



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"Our democracy is designed to speak truth to power." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

"If this guy can be Senator, you can do anything." — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
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