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SCook



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
Posts: 2289
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PostPosted: 09/29/20 4:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan wrote:
johnjohnW wrote:
mercfan wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
Randy wrote:
One problem though is there just may not be that much cap space out there for all the UFA's out there.

Absolutely, that's where this offseason in particular starts to get interesting. The new structure is going to start to come home to roost, and some of the players that instinctually 'feel' like max players may not be able to find a team to give it to them.

In which case seemingly unlikely names come back into the frame when you've only got, say, 132k in space...


So for someone who knows the data more than me, does this make Griner's trade value at an all time high or low? I'm not trying to feed rumors, it's more so me personally feeling like we need to go a different direction.


And what direction is that? Complete rebuild?

Trade Griner. Taurasi likely retires after next year.

Now you've got Diggins and some decent role players? I don't think there are many immediate players who could join that roster and be nearly as valuable as Griner.

Out of curiosity, what would you hope to get for Griner?


Consistent effort. I hope that it comes WITH Griner, but if not, there are other players who will go 100% every night. To answer your question about direction, has anything really felt different since 2014?

Am I supposed to believe that suddenly this team will become title contenders with the same core? She is the biggest piece to that machine. She also has the highest value in terms of what we could get out of a trade so it shouldn't come as a surprise that this is a topic of discussion.

But I'll say it again, I hope that Griner is doing well and healing through her personal life whether the problem is conventionally big or small. She is one of the greatest players on the planet and an inspiration to many off the court. She's battled a lot and I don't want to come off as disrespectful behind a keyboard. No matter what she's a Mercury for life to this fan.


She has the highest trade value, yes. But you'd give her away and potentially have a different coach draw the consistency out of her. Then what? You have a team that is consistent but not championship caliber, while BG goes on to win championships with a different franchise.

It's really simple. Instead of trading BG, find a coach that can get the consistency out of her and make lineups work with her.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 4:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

DFWub2018 wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
DFWub2018 wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
A possible Griner trade that could work for both teams
I have made it simpler than when I wrote it out in the Dallas thread

Griner for Sabally and pick #3 and *
* above is the key component PX may try to get Dallas to throw in something else (Harrison, Thorton, pick #7) but the additional cap space and additional youth to stay competitive now and help grow for the future might be enough to make it worth it just as it is,

PX would commit more to the style of play it had post Griner in the bubble with a dynamic young wing/post in Sabally who adds the needed offensive fire powers up front to go with DT, SDS and Hartley.

PX 2020
SDS/Hartley
DT/Peddy
SWK/Cunningham/*
Sabally/Smith/*
Turner/**

* PX also has pick #3 from Dallas (Griner trade above) and pick #6 from Conn (Bonner trade last season I believe) to fill out the last two spots (Davis, Oneynwere, McDonald, Richards, Mack, Mangakahia or Heal if they increase their stock in the upcoming off season).

** freed up cap space from trading Griner's max deal for rookie deal might allow PX to go with 12 (If they go cheap vet say bring back Vaughn to go with two first round draft picks) or at least have decent money for one UFA (Ch. Parker, Achonwa, Dupree) instead of pick 6 or Peddy and stay at 11

(I think PX would and should keep Griner this is more an exercise is finding that right trade if they wanted to go in that direction).

Dallas
Ogonbowale/Harris
Mabrey/
Gray/KLS
Thorton/Alarie
Griner/Harrison

Dallas has a lot of cap space to go after a big free agent as well as (Ogwumike, Ch. Parker, Zahui B, Sykes, Howard, Laney, Powers).
and Jefferson, NDour, pick #5, (pick #7), pick #13, Gustafson to fill last 3 spots
either way adding Griner to Ogunbowale should bring Dallas to the next level one other strong move and a good draft and they become contender


Why would we make that trade with Satou included and 60% of the time BG comes off as if she's ready to walk away from the league at any moment....Jeez why does everyone dislike us so much in this league???


Because Sabally is great but Griner is another level period.

You don't get a player like Griner for less (issues or not. IMO the issues are being slightly exaggerated. The bubble as well as it worked was a super strange situation on top of how crazy we've been for the last six months and covid, unrest, etc. it is easy to see how someone could get overwhelmed in that situation. It is also easy to see how someone may have wanted to not go, but went anyway, and regretted the decision, and things like family issues and behind the scenes drama could have been amplified because of the bubble and other decisions are made).

Dallas is on a nice trajectory and doesn't have to make this move but if people think a generational player like Griner is available without giving up something great in return they are just being unrealistic (Thorton, Ndour, Harrison, Jefferson and draft picks in a weak draft aren't going to cut it) or must have secret info that Griner wants to leave and wants to go to their team.


I get what you are saying and it all makes sense, however, you can have anyone else on the team....all of them if you want, except Satou & Gray are off limits...please, you raised my blood pressure including Satou in any discussion 😢


Sorry, I know how that feels

I am just speaking in hypotheticals don't take me too seriously

and if it makes you feel any better for every trade I get close to right, I have about 20 that don't even come close.

And honestly I do not think PX should trade Griner and

I think Dallas is building towards a strong future just the way they are. Internal growth especially from Sabally and Ogunbowale, along with prudent free agent signings and good drafting probably make them very competitive by next season, and a contender very soon after that.


DFWub2018



Joined: 24 Aug 2018
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PostPosted: 09/30/20 3:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
DFWub2018 wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
DFWub2018 wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
A possible Griner trade that could work for both teams
I have made it simpler than when I wrote it out in the Dallas thread

Griner for Sabally and pick #3 and *
* above is the key component PX may try to get Dallas to throw in something else (Harrison, Thorton, pick #7) but the additional cap space and additional youth to stay competitive now and help grow for the future might be enough to make it worth it just as it is,

PX would commit more to the style of play it had post Griner in the bubble with a dynamic young wing/post in Sabally who adds the needed offensive fire powers up front to go with DT, SDS and Hartley.

PX 2020
SDS/Hartley
DT/Peddy
SWK/Cunningham/*
Sabally/Smith/*
Turner/**

* PX also has pick #3 from Dallas (Griner trade above) and pick #6 from Conn (Bonner trade last season I believe) to fill out the last two spots (Davis, Oneynwere, McDonald, Richards, Mack, Mangakahia or Heal if they increase their stock in the upcoming off season).

** freed up cap space from trading Griner's max deal for rookie deal might allow PX to go with 12 (If they go cheap vet say bring back Vaughn to go with two first round draft picks) or at least have decent money for one UFA (Ch. Parker, Achonwa, Dupree) instead of pick 6 or Peddy and stay at 11

(I think PX would and should keep Griner this is more an exercise is finding that right trade if they wanted to go in that direction).

Dallas
Ogonbowale/Harris
Mabrey/
Gray/KLS
Thorton/Alarie
Griner/Harrison

Dallas has a lot of cap space to go after a big free agent as well as (Ogwumike, Ch. Parker, Zahui B, Sykes, Howard, Laney, Powers).
and Jefferson, NDour, pick #5, (pick #7), pick #13, Gustafson to fill last 3 spots
either way adding Griner to Ogunbowale should bring Dallas to the next level one other strong move and a good draft and they become contender


Why would we make that trade with Satou included and 60% of the time BG comes off as if she's ready to walk away from the league at any moment....Jeez why does everyone dislike us so much in this league???


Because Sabally is great but Griner is another level period.

You don't get a player like Griner for less (issues or not. IMO the issues are being slightly exaggerated. The bubble as well as it worked was a super strange situation on top of how crazy we've been for the last six months and covid, unrest, etc. it is easy to see how someone could get overwhelmed in that situation. It is also easy to see how someone may have wanted to not go, but went anyway, and regretted the decision, and things like family issues and behind the scenes drama could have been amplified because of the bubble and other decisions are made).

Dallas is on a nice trajectory and doesn't have to make this move but if people think a generational player like Griner is available without giving up something great in return they are just being unrealistic (Thorton, Ndour, Harrison, Jefferson and draft picks in a weak draft aren't going to cut it) or must have secret info that Griner wants to leave and wants to go to their team.


I get what you are saying and it all makes sense, however, you can have anyone else on the team....all of them if you want, except Satou & Gray are off limits...please, you raised my blood pressure including Satou in any discussion 😢


Sorry, I know how that feels

I am just speaking in hypotheticals don't take me too seriously

and if it makes you feel any better for every trade I get close to right, I have about 20 that don't even come close.

And honestly I do not think PX should trade Griner and

I think Dallas is building towards a strong future just the way they are. Internal growth especially from Sabally and Ogunbowale, along with prudent free agent signings and good drafting probably make them very competitive by next season, and a contender very soon after that.


You do remember we have Greg Bibb running the show 😢😪😒


Shades



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 10:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

DFWub2018 wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
with prudent free agent signings and good drafting probably make them very competitive by next season, and a contender very soon after that.


You do remember we have Greg Bibb running the show 😢😪😒


You beat me to it. Very Happy



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DFWub2018



Joined: 24 Aug 2018
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PostPosted: 10/01/20 2:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
DFWub2018 wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
with prudent free agent signings and good drafting probably make them very competitive by next season, and a contender very soon after that.


You do remember we have Greg Bibb running the show 😢😪😒


You beat me to it. Very Happy


What's even worse is we are stuck with him for the foreseeable future because during the past off season he bought a minority ownership percentage of the team, so........!!!


SCook



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 2:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't know what this means. But hmm....

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/wnba/mercury/2020/09/30/phoenix-mercury-offseason-taurasi-unsigned-griner-unsettled/3508231001/



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 4:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

He may have meant nothing by it, but thought it was interesting that Pitman said of Griner "We expect she'll be a WNBA player" rather than "We expect she'll be a Mercury player". At least implicitly suggested they expect to get something for her if she's not playing for them, as opposed to her potentially not playing in the WNBA at all.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 4:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SCook wrote:
I don't know what this means. But hmm....

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/wnba/mercury/2020/09/30/phoenix-mercury-offseason-taurasi-unsigned-griner-unsettled/3508231001/

A Brondello soundbite from the article:
Quote:
“[BG] probably shouldn’t have went into the bubble. It’s not for everybody. I love BG, she’s had some great years. I have a great relationship with her. Hopefully she’s a part of this team next year as well. Only time will tell I suppose.”

Even by itself, that quote only makes me believe the crazy IG story more.........



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 4:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Again I think if she plays in the W it will almost certainly be in PX
The article did talk about her friendship with Taurasi and playing with her in Russia

Here are some other W players she plays with in Russia
Sloot and Quigley
Stewart
J. Jones


SCook



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 4:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
SCook wrote:
I don't know what this means. But hmm....

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/wnba/mercury/2020/09/30/phoenix-mercury-offseason-taurasi-unsigned-griner-unsettled/3508231001/

A Brondello soundbite from the article:
Quote:
“[BG] probably shouldn’t have went into the bubble. It’s not for everybody. I love BG, she’s had some great years. I have a great relationship with her. Hopefully she’s a part of this team next year as well. Only time will tell I suppose.”

Even by itself, that quote only makes me believe the crazy IG story more.........


Really?



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Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 10/01/20 5:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SCook wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
SCook wrote:
I don't know what this means. But hmm....

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/wnba/mercury/2020/09/30/phoenix-mercury-offseason-taurasi-unsigned-griner-unsettled/3508231001/

A Brondello soundbite from the article:
Quote:
“[BG] probably shouldn’t have went into the bubble. It’s not for everybody. I love BG, she’s had some great years. I have a great relationship with her. Hopefully she’s a part of this team next year as well. Only time will tell I suppose.”

Even by itself, that quote only makes me believe the crazy IG story more.........


Really?


The article and quotes (plus the removal of BG from the webpage, and the mum's the word approach) are enough to make me think there is someone wrong on Planet Mercury, but that's about it.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 5:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SCook wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
SCook wrote:
I don't know what this means. But hmm....

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/wnba/mercury/2020/09/30/phoenix-mercury-offseason-taurasi-unsigned-griner-unsettled/3508231001/

A Brondello soundbite from the article:
Quote:
“[BG] probably shouldn’t have went into the bubble. It’s not for everybody. I love BG, she’s had some great years. I have a great relationship with her. Hopefully she’s a part of this team next year as well. Only time will tell I suppose.”

Even by itself, that quote only makes me believe the crazy IG story more.........


Really?


Yes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



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miller40



Joined: 29 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: 10/01/20 5:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
SCook wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
SCook wrote:
I don't know what this means. But hmm....

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/wnba/mercury/2020/09/30/phoenix-mercury-offseason-taurasi-unsigned-griner-unsettled/3508231001/

A Brondello soundbite from the article:
Quote:
“[BG] probably shouldn’t have went into the bubble. It’s not for everybody. I love BG, she’s had some great years. I have a great relationship with her. Hopefully she’s a part of this team next year as well. Only time will tell I suppose.”

Even by itself, that quote only makes me believe the crazy IG story more.........


Really?


The article and quotes (plus the removal of BG from the webpage, and the mum's the word approach) are enough to make me think there is someone wrong on Planet Mercury, but that's about it.


She’s still on the team home page. They are using her picture under the PayPal X Factor box near ticket packages. And her jersey is still in the team shop.


mercfan3



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 10:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

That's a weird comment.

"The bubbles isn't for everyone.."

She spends months isolated from her friends and family in Russia..



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GEF34



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 11:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
That's a weird comment.

"The bubbles isn't for everyone.."

She spends months isolated from her friends and family in Russia..


It’s different being overseas and not being around family and friends and being in the bubble where you literally can’t leave the premises. I’ve had friends who play overseas and on days off they drive to other cities to visit friends or even go to other countries to visit friends, plus you can have friends and family fly to the country you are playing in and if you want time alone you can go off for a day to explore on your own. In the bubble you can’t just leave whenever you want, you can have people coming in and out as they please. The bubble is true isolation from the world, especially if you don’t get along with your teammates off the court (not saying that is the case with any Mercury players), overseas is not.



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SCook



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PostPosted: 10/02/20 1:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
That's a weird comment.

"The bubbles isn't for everyone.."

She spends months isolated from her friends and family in Russia..


She spends months isolated from family and friends in Russia where she technically isn't impacted by the government.This wasn't a normal season. I think it's more than just being in the bubble. Add on the social justice aspect and being a teacher to player's who aren't impacted by the police brutality that you face and it's bound to become too much. I remember Holly stated that BG was teaching Sophie and Alana about advocating for change etc.

Holly tweeted that players told her that they were emotionally drained. Williams and Clarendon delegated the Warlock tasks to Sue because it was too much for them emotionally. Nneka stated that her back issues came from stress. There were plenty of times where Skylar tweeted about how hard it was to get on the court as if nothing was going on.

Maybe she lost her love for the game or maybe it didn't feel the same to her anymore. I don't know but her leaving for whatever the personal reason was, with this new season shouldn't be grounds for penalization, especially since Sandy said it wasn't anything outside of her not being able to do the wubble.



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 8:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5wjODIKFRYY" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wjODIKFRYY



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 11:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cute. can we say ingenue?

anyway, for those wanting less chit-chat, she talks about playing with Diana around the 9 minute mark.



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hyperetic



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PostPosted: 10/12/20 1:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maybe an intervention? A big three confab? I personally think they have a chance to do something great together if they are all in.
Richyyy



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PostPosted: 10/12/20 2:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Phoenix were the example I used here in talking about the new cap situation, in case anyone didn't catch it in the 2021 thread: https://herhoopstats.substack.com/p/beware-the-coming-wnba-cap-crunch

Obviously, things change significantly if Taurasi retires, Griner's traded, or Hartley's still hurt and skips the 2021 season entirely.



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CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 10/23/20 10:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I'm surprised there's no discontent about SDS. She turns the ball over for no reason way too often -- on the last possession vs. Minnesota, of course -- and is not much of a defender. With both her and DT in the backcourt, it's too easy for opposing teams to find one or the other to attack.

But she does play hard, it appears, though not that smart.


Stormeo wrote:
Sort of a weird paradox with SDS. This was far & away her most efficient season yet from the field (above 47%), but it was also her worst season in turnovers (above 3 per game Confused) - this despite that she had a significantly better spread of talent to work with this season with Phoenix than she ever did with Dallas so she theoretically wouldn't have had to force things as much.


I think there is not the level of discontent for Skylar Diggins-Smith because she (17.7 ppg/3.3 rpg/4.2 apg) and Diana Taurasi (18.7 ppg/4.2 rpg/4.5 apg) showed how well they can play off each other in pick-and-roll/pop situations and a slashing/3-point combination. SDS had her career-best field goal percentage (.474; previous career high was .422) while also being incredibly prolific from three (.397) and from the charity strip (.900).

Taurasi & SDS carried the team after Griner left the Wubble and Hartley went down with her season-ending injury, with both making the All-WNBA Second Team for their efforts -- and for SDS, this was a great comeback after missing 2019 due to pregnancy and childbirth.

It is also easy to look past SDS's turnovers went the Mercury were able to go 7-3 without Griner and 5-2 without Griner/Hartley to finish the regular season. And after edging Washington on a last-second three by Peddy in the first round of the playoffs, Phoenix only lost by one point to Minnesota in the second round. The Mercury barely missed out on a seventh semifinals appearance in eight years (since 2013) despite a combined 62 missed games due to injury/absence by Griner's absence, Hartley's injury, Jessica Breland's opt-out, Yvonne Turner's injury) in a truncated 22-game regular season.

Phoenix's rebounding and blocks (surprisingly) went up without Griner while their opponent scoring average and shooting percentages went down. Was it the style of play? Was it the level/quality of opposition? Was it simply a matter of reaching a level of desperation and exerting themselves to such an incredible level that is great for the short-term but not sustainable over the course of an entire season? All are reasonable, and the answer may be a combination of some or all.

In any event, Mercury transformed (on the fly, out of necessity)into a guard-powered transition team taking advantage of a spacious lane normally occupied by Griner. With Brianna Turner (7.2/9.0/2.0 bpg; WNBA All-Defensive First Team) making steady improvements and Kia Vaughn (10.1 points/5.2 rebounds over the final 12 games including playoffs) stepping in for Griner, does that mean Griner is now a trade candidate? Can Phoenix play better with Taurasi/SDS/(Hartley) on the perimeter and Turner/another F up front? And what could Phoenix yield in a trade for Griner?

In any event, Skylar's career high in turnovers for 2020 are easy to overlook given all of the things I mentioned above and all of the questions to be addressed in the offseason.




Last edited by CamrnCrz1974 on 10/23/20 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
Richyyy



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PostPosted: 10/23/20 10:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Talking of Phoenix's offseason, analysis of their cap situation and everything else out today at Her Hoop Stats: https://herhoopstats.substack.com/p/2020-reflections-and-2021-forecasts-058

This is where - however much you feel she was proving the doubters wrong before getting hurt - the effects of Hartley's contract starts to be felt. Gonna be hard to keep many of the vets, assuming Taurasi (and Griner) return.



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CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 10/23/20 1:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Talking of Phoenix's offseason, analysis of their cap situation and everything else out today at Her Hoop Stats: https://herhoopstats.substack.com/p/2020-reflections-and-2021-forecasts-058

This is where - however much you feel she was proving the doubters wrong before getting hurt - the effects of Hartley's contract starts to be felt. Gonna be hard to keep many of the vets, assuming Taurasi (and Griner) return.


ClayK and Richyyy, the article is a good synopsis of the issues facing Phoenix this offseason into next year!

Keeping the 2019 draft picks is a no-brainer - Cunningham, Smith, and Turner are all still in their rookie deals.

But there is no viable way to field a team with Taurasi at the supermax with Griner/SDS/Hartley combining to make $633,450 (and with the 2019 draft picks, this would mean $1,031,030 committed to seven players) that will really be balanced in terms of skillset/performance, levels of experience, quality depth, etc.

Should Phoenix look to make a trade of a core/integral player? Shopping Hartley is not an option due to her injury, unless another team REALLY wants to take a risk; shopping SDS is not an option because she is the present/future; and shopping DTS is not an option because she is the GOAT and the face of the franchise -- and doing so would be a HARD sell in Phoenix).

That leaves Griner. And in terms of on-court performance and team chemistry, this might be the time to start shopping Griner.


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PostPosted: 10/23/20 1:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So basically if PX re-signs DT at super max their four remaianing player have to average around 76ish K., so you are not looking at any big name free agents maybe they could get Peddy and Vaughn at just slightly over vet minimum 80-5K, pick 6 and either a 2nd round pick or waiver wire player with less than two years.

Will internal growth be enough to be a contender if everyone is healthy?

If SDS and DT keep doing what they did t the end of the year, Hartley comes back strong, and Griner can be integrated into what seem like a new system without her I think maybe it could work (Griner and Turner is some strong defense upfront and there is plenty of fire power on the perimeter, and Griner can still score 15-20 even with less focus on getting her the ball and Griner is also capable of running with an uptempo team as well as any center.

2020
SDS/Pick 6 (McDonald, Evans, Westbrook, Slocum)
Hartley/Peddy
DT/Cunningham/Waiver wire (maybe one of NY's wings who gets the chop)
Turner/Smith
Griner/Vaughn

* or is trading Griner (if she is willing to play elsewhere) for multiple pieces or one really good rookie contract piece free up money to be used on other free agents a real possibility?


mercfan



Joined: 08 May 2013
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PostPosted: 10/23/20 1:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
So basically if PX re-signs DT at super max their four remaianing player have to average around 76ish K., so you are not looking at any big name free agents maybe they could get Peddy and Vaughn at just slightly over vet minimum 80-5K, pick 6 and either a 2nd round pick or waiver wire player with less than two years.

Will internal growth be enough to be a contender if everyone is healthy?

If SDS and DT keep doing what they did t the end of the year, Hartley comes back strong, and Griner can be integrated into what seem like a new system without her I think maybe it could work (Griner and Turner is some strong defense upfront and there is plenty of fire power on the perimeter, and Griner can still score 15-20 even with less focus on getting her the ball and Griner is also capable of running with an uptempo team as well as any center.

2020
SDS/Pick 6 (McDonald, Evans, Westbrook, Slocum)
Hartley/Peddy
DT/Cunningham/Waiver wire (maybe one of NY's wings who gets the chop)
Turner/Smith
Griner/Vaughn

* or is trading Griner (if she is willing to play elsewhere) for multiple pieces or one really good rookie contract piece free up money to be used on other free agents a real possibility?


Is there any indication that Taurasi is going to demand that much money at 39? Obviously the franchise is loyal to her but part of me doesn't take her as someone that selfish.


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