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Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 02/14/21 2:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The cap sheets at Her Hoop Stats also have what the respective players are going to become at the end of their contracts, by the way (in the blue boxes at the end of the player's row). https://herhoopstats.com/salary-cap-sheet/wnba/team/new-york-liberty-11eaecc7-356f-5524-b611-2362f5011b0b/ for New York.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 02/14/21 3:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Love it thanks for posting the link Richyyy!

Yeah I suppose by ‘free agent’ I meant Johannes contract would run out after this season. Looks like specifically she falls under the reserved player for next offseason. I had just remembered it was a 2 year contract....I doubt she plays elsewhere (in the W) unless she surprisingly demands a trade.

Re the draft, it’s a faint pipedream fantasy having Mack fall. I would love any of Kuier, (Austin) or Walker. Will have to check out Perry’s games, thanks Myrtle for sharing those games are free!

I really like Walker’s 3pt shot, fluid athleticism, and rebounding, with potential in other areas too. If nothing else I think she’s at least a 3pt stretch forward who can hold her own on the glass.


J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 02/14/21 4:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Does anyone know how Holmes is doing over=seas. I still think she can develop but could just be wrong, ATM it seems possible that NY will have room for a project 5th post, even if the #6 pick turns out to be a project 4th post.

Still floating around in free agency I would be open to Breland. She fits the Liberty post mold and is in a place in her career where she could be a 2nd or 3rd post in close games but would probably be OK with fewer minutes in games we are giving the younger posts developmental minutes


Richyyy



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PostPosted: 02/14/21 4:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Problem is, unless you're going to get someone like Han or Johannes to sign something committing to not coming in 2021, you'd have to cut someone to sign Breland (unless she's willing to sign for the minimum and therefore a training camp contract). There's also still Rebecca Allen to sign, assuming she's coming this year (and again, no space for her unless she signs for one year at the minimum).

Adding good players is a good thing, but it does mean that you guys have to worry about the cap for the first time in a while.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 02/14/21 5:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I didn't realize that. I have since taken a look at the salary sheet.

I am not very confident Han or Johannes are going to show but we might not know that until closer to the season and whether or not the Olympics are postponed will probably have some impact.

If Durr has to sit out the season and gets offered something like an ambassador spot that could help. ATM it looks like Holmes' training camp contract has no impact on the numbers. But the fact the we are currently full on actual non training camp roster spots is probably why we haven't been able to sign Allen. In theory we need both Han and Johannes to skip the season to fit Allen and the #6 pick, then we have to figure out Durr's status before we can sign a vet post and ATM the only way Holmes make the team is if she beats out Shook. I wonder if we have one more move to make? or if we are just waiting for some additional things to fall into place.


Richyyy



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PostPosted: 02/14/21 5:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah, training camp contracts don't count on the cap unless and until they make the opening day roster. So as long as a player signs for one-year at their applicable minimum, it counts as a training camp contract and you can have as many of those as you like. There isn't much cap space left around the league, so Breland at one year for the vet minimum isn't completely impossible, but I imagine she's still currently looking for a bit more.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/16/21 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Looking at the updated salary/roster exhibit, it looks to me like signing Sami Whitcomb to that bloated contract is going to cause some headaches. Right now, the Liberty are at 13 players and essentially capped out. There is no cap or roster space for Allen and the 1st Round pick.

You can create two roster spots and enough cap space by convincing Johannes and Han to sit out this season. Of course, all that talk about them coming to Brooklyn after the Olympics goes out the window. Beyond that, you still need another roster slot. That requires cutting another player, but it frees up more cap space. Putting everything together, these moves allow NY to add Allen and the 1st Round pick while keeping either Johannes or Han as an option until after the Olympics. Now, if the league brings back the medical opt-out or in some other way accommodates Durr, that would free up a roster slot but not cap space. You can then save the player you were planning to cut by going back to eliminating both Han and Durr for this season.

The other alternative we discussed was having the team suspend Durr and then pay her with marketing dollars. That would be the best option if the league allows it. Again, all of this would be unnecessary if the Liberty had never signed Whitcomb, whom I feel is not needed as well as overpriced.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 02/18/21 8:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

They must know Johannes and Han aren’t coming over. Can’t imagine they’d have taken Whitcomb otherwise.

She is definitely overpriced geez. I never would have guessed that was her salary.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 02/18/21 12:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Even if Whitcomb can just shoot at her career 35% 3PT level, it’ll help this team out immensely with how quick she can get off her shot. Last season she also displayed a midrange game and drove to the basket looking to score a lot more than in prior seasons. I’m guessing the ability to score at all 3 levels is what Hopkins & co really liked about her, along with being comfortable in the p&r. Defensively, if she starts alongside Ionescu, I can see her guarding the opposing main ball handler, and with her energy she can be quite pesky...

Johannès while she likely won’t show up again this season (the pandemic obviously didn’t help with that) will at least be more motivated to in future seasons if the Liberty wisely take one (or more) of her fellow French players in the Draft. As for Han Xu, idk but I’m not yet convinced we’ll see her play in the League ever again...

Back to the French player thing and the lack of roster spaces, I wonder if we could see the Liberty take Iliana Rupert at #6... I haven’t forgotten that the guy who wrote this international prospect round-up (that many of us have probably already read) said it would be “staggering to [him]” if Rupert ended up outside the Draft’s Top-5, while acknowledging her availability concerns. High praise, to be sure, but anyone who writes for FIBA probably has a good idea of what all these international prospects can bring to the table.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/18/21 3:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not knocking Whitcomb, I'm just not convinced she's needed -- especially at a price I doubt anyone else would have paid. NY already added 3pt shooting with Laney, the return of Ionescu, the return of Allen, and maybe the return of Johannes. They are also supposedly developing Jones, Willoughby, and Odom, so where is the playing time coming for them? Whitcomb had a really good year in 2020, but before that she was .361 FG/.344 3Pt over 3 seasons. That didn't make her any more reliable than Willoughby's rookie .358 FG/.405 3Pt. Not saying Whitcomb can't help the team, but she's essentially a luxury item. Hopkins and Kolb are like that young couple who couldn't resist buying a state-of-the-art television to finish off their living room. Now, they have to give up the gym membership, cancel Netflix, and eat mac and cheese every day for the rest of the year.



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Michelle89



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PostPosted: 02/18/21 5:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How much capspace do the Liberty still have? Are they still close to the minimum?
Because you have loads of young players so you need some vets on this team. Sami is one of the hardest workers that the Storm ever had. She gives 100% every training, game and extra work before and after games you name it. Liberty need to install that culture and those youngsters need other players that set an example.

Also Sami and Howard had good chemistry in pick&roll action so i think it was a good move to get Sami and keep Howard a little happier that way.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 02/18/21 5:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For me, the signing of Whitcomb reflects uncertainties about Durr and Johannes--and not just for 2021. I hope that Asia Durr will be much healthier soon, be back on the court in 2021, and will be back to top form in 2022. If that's not possible, I just hope Asia Durr will be healthy and stay healthy, whether or not she plays basketball. As for Johannes, I hope she'll be back on the Liberty this season and if not in 2022.

Obviously Kolb and Hopkins know a lot about roster and possible roster players that we don't and won't. But this is how I'm viewing the signing of Whitcomb. As for her salary... again we can't know the full story. Was some other team after her that Kolb and Hopkins had to overbid?

I like getting Whitcomb, but the concerns others have raised are certainly reasonable and valid.

P.S. Perhaps it's certain, though not yet official, that Allen will be playing for the Liberty this season. For me, it's another uncertainty until it is officially announced.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/18/21 7:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
How much capspace do the Liberty still have? Are they still close to the minimum?


No, that's the point of this discussion. New York has the second-lowest amount of cap space left -- $46,327. That's not enough to sign anybody. So, they will need to make room for their 1st round pick and Bec Allen. Now, it's not as bad as it looks because they have 13 players under contract. Among them are people like Johannes, Han, and Durr who are questionable for the season. There is clearly some wiggle room. However, as I've said before, while Whitcomb can no doubt be an asset to the team, there is no pressing need for her. New York is not going for a championship this year. Supposedly, they are in the middle of a "hybrid rebuild" where management wanted to add some high-end pieces to the young core. Howard and Laney fit that definition. Whitcomb does not. The fact that she hustles and is coming off her best season doesn't change the fact that she is a career backup. If the team wants to continue developing their young wing players, Sami is going to severely cut into the available playing time. On the other hand, if she doesn't play a lot, then Whitcomb is going be a very, very expensive bench player. On top of that, because her contact is so large, it's forcing management to make early decisions about Johannes, Han, and Durr who might have been available later in the season. Obviously, they may not be coming anyway, but the team always held out hope that they would.

In short, my argument isn't that Whitcomb by herself can't be helpful. It's more about her stunting the growth of the young players and forcing management to make early decisions on others. All this seems unnecessary because NY had already added to their 3pt shooting and didn't have an obvious need for a specialist.



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bcdawg04



Joined: 12 Apr 2016
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PostPosted: 02/18/21 8:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Whitcomb is not a specialist, but yes, over the next two years she needs to show that she is worth what NY thinks she is worth.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/18/21 11:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bcdawg04 wrote:
Whitcomb is not a specialist, but yes, over the next two years she needs to show that she is worth what NY thinks she is worth.


Less so last year, but still 60% of Whitcomb's shot attempts were 3-pointers. For her career, the rate is 75.3%. That looks like a specialist to me.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 02/19/21 12:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="695" height="391" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KRIhVQp3G9s" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I consider her more of a 3pt specialist, but last season I thought she showed some nice flashes of playmaking with drives and dishes/finishes at the rim. And a better looking defender (pesky) than I thought, not sure if stats back that up.

What I like from what Sami starts this interview with is, not the expectation of a bigger role within the offense, but the goal to work her way into a bigger role with the Liberty. With what Seattle fans have said about her work ethic, I hope she can expand upon those flashes that I saw from the bubble.

At worst, she's an expensive but reliable 3pt shooter throughout the course of a season for two years. I realize she potentially takes away minutes from Jones and Willoughby, but we still don't know what is happening with Durr and Johannes, not to mention the Olympics.
Durr seems doubtful. Johannes imo would show after EuroBasket with France being a co host, and if the Olympics stand, not until after Tokyo (despite the month in between, I think she would consider it too much hassle/travel amidst the pandemic). If both are out, there's still a way for all the 2nd year guards/wings to get double digit minutes.

At best, she brings championship experience and a super work ethic for our youth to be guided by, and turns into a nice complimentary ball handler and playmaker, who has a career year (low double digit scoring, a few assists per game) and contributes to shockingly winning our first elimination game in the 2021 playoffs before falling in the second.

I think we end up with Ionescu/Clarendon, Whitcomb/Jones, Laney/Willoughby, Allen/Odom/#6(Walker?), Howard/Stokes/Shook. Maybe Johannes joins late, and Shook gets cut if the wing as 4 thing is working. In which case minutes get even tighter.
I love the idea of Ionescu-Howard PnR, with 3 high percentage shooters around them to start the game. If Allen gets bullied down low, Walker has legit height and rebounds great in college, not to mention a good 3pt shot, so we could switch to a more traditional two post lineup (or use Stokes or Shook and lose a bit of the shooting prowess).


Richyyy



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PostPosted: 02/19/21 1:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bear in mind that carrying people on a "maybe they'll show up later" basis is more complicated now the roster is way more expensive. The only way to get them off the cap is to suspend them for the entire season - if you want them to be eligible to be activated later in the year you can temporarily suspend them, but that means they continue to count on the cap. That's why in Washington, if Emma Meesseman wants to join halfway through the season, they don't want her to sign anything until then.

Let's say Durr and Han signed paperwork tomorrow saying they won't be playing in 2021, and were suspended for the season. They come off the cap, and the Liberty would be up to about 165k in cap space with 11 players under standard contracts (including Johannes). Then you'd have room for the #6 pick and to give Rebecca Allen anything up to about 98k. That'd be 13 players fitting under the cap, including the one you might want to temporarily suspend in the hope she eventually shows up. So that works. But that's with two of the three (or four, if you count Allen) unknowns dealt with and off the cap. That looks like the least that needs to be done to sort things out, to me.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/19/21 1:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Bear in mind that carrying people on a "maybe they'll show up later" basis is more complicated now the roster is way more expensive.


And one of my main points is precisely that the roster didn't need to be this expensive. NY's cap situation would be a lot more flexible without Whitcomb's $150k hit. They don't need her. She's a luxury they can live without. Jones had a nice rookie season and is deserving of a chance to start. Willoughby has to fix her problems around the rim, but her defense is good and she shoots well from outside. Jocelyn is currently playing well in Israel, so maybe she corrected some things. It's certainly worth finding out. Odom started a lot of games last year. Management claims she is ahead of schedule, so with some improvement she could deserve a lot of PT. The Liberty still have Clarendon, who actually had a solid year except for the turnovers -- which may be system-based. Allen is expected back, and waiting on Johannes would not be a cap burden had they not made the move. While NY is no longer as overcrowded on the perimeter as they were previously, the team still has plenty of options. They didn't need to tie up $150k on another wing who is at best a borderline starter.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 02/19/21 11:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

That’s fair root. I’m not sure what their plan is....perhaps a deferral at #6, and either a 2nd or 3rd rounder makes the team, or Holmes, boosting Allen to around 104-106k. Assuming Han and Durr get a full season suspension, and Johannes a temporary.

I’ll just hope they’ve crunched the numbers to know what they’re doing. I agree though, that she is a luxury at this point that wasn’t absolutely necessary. And when I look at the contract players she would be my assumed top 3 in threes made, along with Ionescu and Johannes- which is important for this system. I love Jocelyn’s potential but need to see more volume. 🙏🏽


Stormeo



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PostPosted: 02/19/21 11:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't know what to tell ya, root. Many fans in Seattle like Whitcomb being in New York as much as you do, but we'll all have to make the most of it. Like we're stuck with Samuelson (albeit at a cheaper price, but with even bigger expectations), you're stuck with her. Razz Apparently management feels Whitcomb has a lot more to give New York that she hadn't given Seattle yet, beyond her 'specialist' role. She didn't "force" them into anything – she merely signed whatever contract they agreed to give her. Did they overpay for her? Probably, but we'll see how she fits in; At any rate, at least her two-year deal won't be blocking the now-sophomores forever, by any means. No matter what Hopkins & co. say about how they're developing overseas, all these moves collectively are a sign to me that they want the sophomores playing in more specific roles this year, alongside more talented veterans than the ones the Liberty had last year to see if that'll help their development. It'll definitely mean less minutes for some, but then, they weren't going to be Liberty lifers anyway.

How many rookies were on the roster last year? If other veterans weren't gonna be the ones to take playing time away from them, it would've been each other, especially considering two or three of them play the same damn position(s). Even then, how much would a Io-Jones-Odom-Willoughby-Shook/whoever lineup contribute? Playing 3s at the 4 is still dumb, and still appears to be the direction they're going in. Whoever doesn't arise to be the queen of that hive is likely going to a different team, at least by the time the rookie contracts are up but possibly sooner. (It'd be nice if at least one more of the now-sophomores were to get traded between now & the beginning of the 2022 season.) As fun as seeing all those picks that New York ended up having last Draft was, it was a flawed approach from the beginning. Combine that with all the unexpected absences essentially due to the pandemic, and this is how Whitcomb (likely there because specifically both Johannès and Durr can't be) is on the team at a price that the Storm was apparently willing to give her up at.



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bcdawg04



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PostPosted: 02/19/21 3:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The questions regarding whether NY needed to or should have paid this much to Whitcomb are completely fair. The contract is based on potential/future expectations, not solely what she has already accomplished in the league. (Personally, if we had to lose her, I'm stoked to see her getting paid. It won't change her approach.)

Something else Whitcomb brings to the Liberty: In 2019, she was one of the more vocal players on the court for the Storm. Loyd and Canada were, of course, the regular starters, but among the three of them, Whitcomb was the most comfortable as a vocal leader. Don't be surprised when you see that in NY.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/19/21 4:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I do get the feeling that Whitcomb was partly brought in for intangible reasons such as vocal leadership, locker room culture, etc. Those are things that can't be quantified, so we'll just have to see.



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Queenie



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PostPosted: 02/19/21 5:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So basically we just tied up two years of big money because Hopkins looked at the roster and said, "Help, I need an adult!"



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Michelle89



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PostPosted: 02/19/21 6:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormfans would be very happy to take her back if yall dont want her on your team



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 02/19/21 6:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My guess is there is no reassurance that Johannes is coming back, and with the additions of Howard and Laney there is probably a desire to win games now and try to get into the playoffs. Whitcomb can help with that for the two years of her contract. Also similar to Laney and Howard they are betting on Sami producing more in a bigger role. Overall I agree with the criticism of the contract but I can also see what management is trying to do.

If/When Allen is back on board this line up is pretty intriguing
Ionescu, Whitcomb, Laney, Allen, Howard


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