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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 1:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In tonight's crucial win over Connecticut, Carolyn Swords played 31 minutes, shot 3-5 from the floor, and had 10 rebounds. This from a player who wasn't even planning to be on Bill Laimbeer's roster this season! I always liked Swords and felt she did a good job for the Liberty despite her limitations as a player. I was impressed with how she stood with the team's African American players in addressing racism. I'm happy for Swords and wish her well in what's ahead against Seattle.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 10:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
If Howard leaves Seattle


Why would Howard leave the first team that believed in her, stood by her through the fake scandal, a team that is set up for a potential dynasty run because of the work of the GM (you can plug in any non-COY coach and still win), and can get paid supermax if that’s what she needs. It makes ZERO sense. Even the biggest dreams should make a little sense.


J-Spoon wrote:


Ionescu/Clarendon
Durr/Johannes/Jones
Nurse/Odom, Walker, or Willoughby
Howard/Zahui B/lottery pick
Ch. Parker/Stokes

those moves aren't too unrealistic and that is suddenly a competitive NY team


I already spoke on Howard. If CHI can afford Parker, I think she’d rather stay there. I sense a bonding of teammates there.

Another reason it’s unrealistic is it goes against Hopkins’ small ball gameplan. Are you predicting or hoping that he’s scraping that?

J-Spoon wrote:
Ionescu/Clarendon
Durr/Jones
Nurse/Odom
lottery pick/Willoughby/Walker
Stokes/Shook

room for one free agent or Johannes
free agent options
could bring back Allen
make a bigger move like Ch. Parker


I’m sorry but this is looking more realistic. There should be some free agents available because teams can’t afford them, but which ones fit Hopkins’ “3’s are 4’s” system?

I’m surprised nobody has thought of trading for DeShields (or Gabby). Chicago are overloaded at wing, she may have fallen within team ranks, and she’d probably be a starting 4 in Hopkin’s highly vaunted system.



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Last edited by Shades on 09/30/20 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total
myrtle



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 11:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
There should be some free agents available because teams can’t afford them, but which ones fit Hopkins’ “3’s are 4’s” system?



Is this really his theory or was he just working with what he had?



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 11:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Shades wrote:
There should be some free agents available because teams can’t afford them, but which ones fit Hopkins’ “3’s are 4’s” system?



Is this really his theory or was he just working with what he had?


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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 11:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
If Howard leaves Seattle


Why would Howard leave the first team that believed in her, stood by her through the fake scandal, a team that is set up for a potential dynasty run because of the work of the GM (you can plug in any non-COY coach and still win), and can get paid supermax if that’s what she needs. It makes ZERO sense. Even the biggest dreams should make a little sense.

I already spoke on Howard. If CHI can afford Parker, I think she’d rather stay there. I sense a bonding of teammates there.

Another reason it’s unrealistic is it goes against Hopkins’ small ball gameplan. Are you predicting or hoping that he’s scraping that?

I’m sorry but this is looking more realistic. There should be some free agents available because teams can’t afford them, but which ones fit Hopkins’ “3’s are 4’s” system?

I’m surprised nobody has thought of trading for DeShields (or Gabby). Chicago are overloaded at wing, she may have fallen within team ranks, and she’d probably be a starting 4 in Hopkin’s highly vaunted system.


Howard might leave, as might Parker if the contract is big enough, and for more years than their respective teams can or are willing to offer.
Look what supposedly happened with Courtney Williams this past offseason.

It might seem to make zero sense to us fans why a player might leave a dynasty that has supported her so well. But it doesn’t mean a player doesn’t want to play somewhere else for a new experience, or with a certain player.

Parker may be close with her teammates in Chicago, but again it goes to amount of money offered, and for how long. If NY offers 3 years $185,000 does Chicago do the same?

I would hope Hopkins can adjust his plans as needed. Howard and Parker as our starting 4 and 5 would be closer to his vision than Stokes and Zahui B. Because Howard is a better defender, more athletic, and has nice touch from outside, as does Parker.

I would be open to DeShields or Gabby. If Chicago needs to unload either, I would be happy to have them on NY.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 12:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is why I’ve generally avoided speculating about the Liberty off-season moves. Management has said and done a lot of contradictory things. What’s clear is that the team needs a post upgrade. That’s true whether Hopkins plays small or conventionally. We can debate Stokes and Zahui’s defensive abilities, but their offense is clearly subpar. One of them on the floor leaves you short. Both on the floor makes you bad. Both plus Odom gives you the league’s all-time worst offense, which we saw this past season.



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 1:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Saying that something isn't too unrealistic (which translates to very unrealistic) implies that it is still somewhat unrealistic.

With that said something weird always seems to happen in the off season.

Not a lot of people saw Bonner leaving PX, and especially not as a signed UFA with a super max deal.

Toliver leaving championship winning Washington was another slightly surprising move.

Hartley, Copper and Dolson all getting max or near max deals with the new much higher top salary wasn't in anyone predictions.

I don't think too many people for saw C. Will in Atl or Sykes being traded to LA

Augustus in LA? Maybe there were whispers that Minny shouldn't offer Augustus big money, but Augustus not finishing out her career as a Lynx or going to play for the Sparks wasn't really a thought anyone had.

I agree overall that NY is in a rebuild and is probably going to build around Ionescu/Durr but they can offer an experienced post player a lot of money, the chance to be the #1 option in the front court and pairing with a great guard known for being able to get their post player the ball and eventually/hopefully will get to play in NYC.

I like both Deshields and Gabby I am not sure what we have of equal value. If one of our sophomore (I could say Wade betting on Walker's 3 point shooting and excusing her first season and saving some future cap space but not having to pay both Williams and Deshields or the rights to Talbot or Allen and 2nd round pick get it done great. it will be too early to offer our 2022 pick since that class is stacked and we we'll likely be lottery bound one more time (not guaranteed a lot can happen in the off season but) I'd be willing to do Claredon and our 2nd round pick for either. Clarendon is probably better suited to being a back up on a good team, and Ionescu/Kea is enough to cover the Point in NY next year, or continue to develop Jones in that direction or if it is Gabby in return we could probably play her there a little as well.

Ionescu/Jones/Kea
Durr/Nurse
Gabby or Diamond/Odom
lottery pick/Willoughby/(Holmes)*
Stokes/Shook

* I still think Holmes can develop into something good she just needs more time she isn't likely to get hopefully she has a good coach over seas but

replace Holmes or one of the other sophomores with a free agent or who ever isn't in the trade between Walker, Allen or Clarendon

don't hate it


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 9:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
This is why I’ve generally avoided speculating about the Liberty off-season moves. Management has said and done a lot of contradictory things. What’s clear is that the team needs a post upgrade. That’s true whether Hopkins plays small or conventionally. We can debate Stokes and Zahui’s defensive abilities, but their offense is clearly subpar. One of them on the floor leaves you short. Both on the floor makes you bad. Both plus Odom gives you the league’s all-time worst offense, which we saw this past season.


Your comment about "contradictory things" seems valid and is interesting. Have to wonder how Kolb and Hopkins will approach the 2021 season. Of course you're right that the team needs a post upgrade. I'm wondering if Hopkins feels committed to the same approach he espoused so strongly before basketball in the wubble began. And if Kolb is on board with that.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 1:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

kind of out there trade idea (built off some ideas in the sophomore thread and Chicago thread)

I usually aim for realistic ideas but decided to go big I realize not so much based on the pieces themselves but the amount of moving parts and value to their teams (you don't usually see 4 starters in one deal) that this isn't very realistic. But I am experimenting (prior to this I hadn't really considered trading Nurse or Clarendon but I could see it happening, both have enough history that I don't think this season lowered their value too much) The trade is also considering that certain teams with little cap space might actually do slightly unbalanced trades if it frees up money for them to use else where.

Nurse, Clarendon and Walker for

Dolson and Deshields

Chicago saves money by dumping Dolson salary and can core Ch. Parker. Clarendon is a good back up for Sloot, Nurse is a good back up for Quigley. Chicago can afford a 12th player now and can develop Walker who fits their style if her 3 point shot returns. Giving up Deshields is the slightly uneven price Chicago has to pay for getting rid of Dolson salary and with Copper's development and Diamonds down year maybe her value has fallen slightly.

Dolson is a decent fit with Stokes as a two headed center
Deshields (like Nurse) was an all-star in 19 and has the defense, 3 ball and switching ability to play 2 through 4 in the Liberty system and in conjunction with Ionescu and Durr could become a deadly perimeter for the Liberty for years. Also moving on from some of the other starters opens up minutes for Durr, Deshields the lottery pick and sophomores.

NY
Ionescu, Durr, Deshields, Allen, Stokes
Kea, Jones, Odom, Willoughby, lottery pick, Shook (or Holmes), Dolson

Chi
Sloot, Quigley, Copper, Stevens, Ch. Parker
Clarendon, Nurse, draft pick, Williams, Walker, Hebard, Mavunga

I doubt it happens but I don't hate it
This is one of those trades where I suspect Chicago fans will be like "You crazy" but I am not sure

yeah this is a little too much to believe as a concept but got keep the thread going before the silence of winter


myrtle



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 12:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jspoon at his best Laughing

I don't see this as all 'that' bad, but pretty unrealistic.
I don't think Chicago gives up on Diamond, unless she really wants out, which I haven't heard.

I could see something like:
Dolson for
Stokes and Clarendon

but that's not very realistic either.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 12:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I once suggested Dolson for Stokes + Talbot, but if the Sky want to save some extra money in order to give them the option to core Cheyenne Parker, then Dolson for Stokes straight-up should get the job done. That’s a good trade for both teams anyway imo.



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 1:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Dolson, offensively, would fit with the Liberty. Especially with Hopkins trying to have everybody on the court stretch the floor.

Defensively, she would be so out of place. Can’t protect the rim, can’t guard the pick and roll, and has never in her career averaged 1 steal or more per game so she can’t play the passing lanes either. You would have her on the floor for offensive purposes only. Her and Ionescu could work well together, though.

I guess if Hopkins is confident every one can guard their man on the perimeter for a majority of the game, then it might be worth the risk to him.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 1:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Liberty were just so bad offensively last year, that they might be okay with giving up defense for offense. The question is, in a trade like that, how much more defense do you lose vs. how much more offense do you gain? But it's hard to go down this kind of rabbit hole when Stokes getting an extension seems pretty clear they're keeping her. And I'm not sure what other type of player Chicago would want in exchange for Dolson – if they even want to get rid of her. With Zahui B. being a UFA, New York realistically has no other tradeable posts…



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 3:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A slightly easier version of the trade same ideas but paired down

Nurse and Walker (or Shook)

for Gabby and Dolson

Gabby makes up for some of the defense you lose with Dolson

(it really depends on how you value Gabby vs Nurse)

Ionescu, Durr, Williams, Allen, Dolson
Clarendon, Jones, Odom, Willoughby, lottery pick, Stokes, Shook (or Walker if Chicago prefers Shook in the trade)


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 4:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
The Liberty were just so bad offensively last year, that they might be okay with giving up defense for offense. The question is, in a trade like that, how much more defense do you lose vs. how much more offense do you gain? But it's hard to go down this kind of rabbit hole when Stokes getting an extension seems pretty clear they're keeping her. And I'm not sure what other type of player Chicago would want in exchange for Dolson – if they even want to get rid of her. With Zahui B. being a UFA, New York realistically has no other tradeable posts…


Why assume that Stokes getting an extension makes it "pretty clear they're keeping her"? I don't assume that. My guess: Kolb and Hopkins feel she has value on the roster but also has value in a trade.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 4:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree with macarter. Dolson fits well offensively (shoots 3s, passes well, bruising screener), but she’d be a disaster on defense (slow-footed). I suppose the Liberty could play zone, which they already do at times. However, it means changing their base defense for one player. New York’s starting line-up this season suggests that defense was more important to them than offense. Otherwise, why start Stokes and Odom who have the lowest point-per-play rates on the team? Shifting Nurse to SF and using Jones at SG definitely would have given them more offense. So would starting Shook or Holmes over Stokes. Instead, they chose the defensive route.

As I’ve noted before, Dolson was a UFA just a few months ago. I didn’t hear anything about NY pursuing her back then. Not sure why they’d pass on someone for free, but months later trade for her. Then again, management often contradicts itself so I wouldn’t be shocked by anything they do. But if it were me, I'd be looking for two-way players.



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 5:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In my fanciful trades taking on Dolson is the price for getting the other player.After Chicago resolves the Ch. Parker situation. I wouldn't want to help them before because poaching Parker is a much better move for NY in my opinion than anything with Dolson even with another player (it wasn't the most real idea to being with but Diamond or Gabby in NY seems like a good move for improvement while fitting the Ionescu/Durr lottery pick timeline).

but if Ch. Parker wouldn't work out I would consider making a move for Dolson alone but only as a salary dump for Chicago so Dolson for one of the sophomores who might get cut (Walker, Willoughby Shook) or Dolson for our 2nd round pick 16. At that reduced level it might be worth a shot.

But I am not really trying to trade for Dolson for real unless it is a great deal or part of getting the other better player.

With that said I like Dolson, and the Stokes/Dolson combo at the 5 20 minutes a night each-is isn't bad compared to our 5 spot the last few seasons.


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PostPosted: 10/07/20 7:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
The Liberty were just so bad offensively last year, that they might be okay with giving up defense for offense. The question is, in a trade like that, how much more defense do you lose vs. how much more offense do you gain? But it's hard to go down this kind of rabbit hole when Stokes getting an extension seems pretty clear they're keeping her. And I'm not sure what other type of player Chicago would want in exchange for Dolson – if they even want to get rid of her. With Zahui B. being a UFA, New York realistically has no other tradeable posts…


Why assume that Stokes getting an extension makes it "pretty clear they're keeping her"? I don't assume that. My guess: Kolb and Hopkins feel she has value on the roster but also has value in a trade.


I assume it because they heaped praise on her throughout the season, gave her very consistent minutes, need the post help with Zahui B. unsigned, and while we don't know how the extension negotiations were, I don't know why Stokes would agree to it unless they promised her she'd be on the team. And it's only a one-year extension, right? Both player and team get to keep their options open after that anyway. I doubt she agreed to it while thinking that it will likely lead to a trade to a random team that she wouldn't have much of a say in going to. I get the "assume nothing" approach, but this franchise at this point & time can't possibly be banking on getting a bunch of free agents where they can put themselves in a position to trade away the little value they have the rights to.



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 7:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some of you guys say you're hesitant to put out your own opinions but sure are quick to offer counterarguments to those of us that are. Laughing I don't really understand why, since none of our collective speculations truly matter lmao, especially with this much uncertainty.



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 7:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
Some of you guys say you're hesitant to put out your own opinions but sure are quick to offer counterarguments to those of us that are.


Sorry. Crying or Very sad



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 7:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mavcarter wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
Some of you guys say you're hesitant to put out your own opinions but sure are quick to offer counterarguments to those of us that are.


Sorry. Crying or Very sad


You should be sorry, mavcarter.

Wink Laughing



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 7:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
Nurse and Walker

for Gabby and Dolson


Deal. *shrug*

EDIT: Actually, the Sky already have enough wings even with unloading Williams, in that scenario.

If Quigley was retiring, though, I wouldn’t oblige. Very Happy

Stormeo wrote:
Dolson for Stokes straight-up.


I forgot to say, I don’t oblige. Very Happy



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 8:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
Some of you guys say you're hesitant to put out your own opinions but sure are quick to offer counterarguments to those of us that are. Laughing I don't really understand why, since none of our collective speculations truly matter lmao, especially with this much uncertainty.


It wasn't so quick, I waited like 3 hours. Wink

Basically, it comes down to not having enough confidence to predict anything. The reason it's so easy to knock down other people's ideas is because I can probably knock down all ideas -- including my own. Liberty management said they like the players on their roster. They also like the players who opted out. They also intend to be aggressive in the free agent and trade markets. And that doesn't even include the draft. The Liberty will need a 20-player roster to accommodate everybody. Hopkins said this past season was about the young players, but he gave most of the minutes to his veterans. He said they were going to play small ball, but New York almost exclusively used two posts. Then after the season, he insisted that using Zahui and Stokes together was never the plan and that they will go back to small-ball. As for our concerns about defensive mismatches, Walt hinted at special adjustments they were going to make to protect the SFs playing PF. However, on the rare occasions that New York actually went small, it looked like the undersized post was just left to fend for herself. Hopkins later said they don't like to send double-teams. OK, then what are the adjustments?

This is why I have no confidence predicting what they will do. Back when Laimbeer was here, the guy had a track record and he also told you his philosophy as well as the type of players he liked. Bill was fairly consistent. Yes, there were some changes over time -- like he seemed to become more accepting of small guards. Still, I felt well informed when it came to forecasting what Laimbeer would do. With Hopkins/Kolb, the rhetoric and the actions don't match. I'm sure they'll tell you that their plans were disrupted by players opting-out and because of the odd circumstances of this season. Fair enough. But it still leaves us fans scratching our heads and wondering.



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 8:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
[ It wasn't so quick, I waited like 3 hours. Wink

Basically, it comes down to not having enough confidence to predict anything. The reason it's so easy to knock down other people's ideas is because I can probably knock down all ideas -- including my own. Liberty management said they like the players on their roster. They also like the players who opted out. They also intend to be aggressive in the free agent and trade markets. And that doesn't even include the draft. The Liberty will need a 20-player roster to accommodate everybody. Hopkins said this past season was about the young players, but he gave most of the minutes to his veterans. He said they were going to play small ball, but New York almost exclusively used two posts. Then after the season, he insisted that using Zahui and Stokes together was never the plan and that they will go back to small-ball. As for our concerns about defensive mismatches, Walt hinted at special adjustments they were going to make to protect the SFs playing PF. However, on the rare occasions that New York actually went small, it looked like the undersized post was just left to fend for herself. Hopkins later said they don't like to send double-teams. OK, then what are the adjustments?

This is why I have no confidence predicting what they will do. Back when Laimbeer was here, the guy had a track record and he also told you his philosophy as well as the type of players he liked. Bill was fairly consistent. Yes, there were some changes over time -- like he seemed to become more accepting of small guards. Still, I felt well informed when it came to forecasting what Laimbeer would do. With Hopkins/Kolb, the rhetoric and the actions don't match. I'm sure they'll tell you that their plans were disrupted by players opting-out and because of the odd circumstances of this season. Fair enough. But it still leaves us fans scratching our heads and wondering.


So well said. I agree with every word. I am with root_thing, just scratching my head and wondering.



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PostPosted: 10/07/20 9:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
Some of you guys say you're hesitant to put out your own opinions but sure are quick to offer counterarguments to those of us that are. Laughing I don't really understand why, since none of our collective speculations truly matter lmao, especially with this much uncertainty.


It wasn't so quick, I waited like 3 hours. Wink

Basically, it comes down to not having enough confidence to predict anything. The reason it's so easy to knock down other people's ideas is because I can probably knock down all ideas -- including my own. Liberty management said they like the players on their roster. They also like the players who opted out. They also intend to be aggressive in the free agent and trade markets. And that doesn't even include the draft. The Liberty will need a 20-player roster to accommodate everybody. Hopkins said this past season was about the young players, but he gave most of the minutes to his veterans. He said they were going to play small ball, but New York almost exclusively used two posts. Then after the season, he insisted that using Zahui and Stokes together was never the plan and that they will go back to small-ball. As for our concerns about defensive mismatches, Walt hinted at special adjustments they were going to make to protect the SFs playing PF. However, on the rare occasions that New York actually went small, it looked like the undersized post was just left to fend for herself. Hopkins later said they don't like to send double-teams. OK, then what are the adjustments?

This is why I have no confidence predicting what they will do. Back when Laimbeer was here, the guy had a track record and he also told you his philosophy as well as the type of players he liked. Bill was fairly consistent. Yes, there were some changes over time -- like he seemed to become more accepting of small guards. Still, I felt well informed when it came to forecasting what Laimbeer would do. With Hopkins/Kolb, the rhetoric and the actions don't match. I'm sure they'll tell you that their plans were disrupted by players opting-out and because of the odd circumstances of this season. Fair enough. But it still leaves us fans scratching our heads and wondering.


I agree but

my reaction instead of making no predictions is to basically make every prediction.


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