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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/23/20 12:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
This past winter, I never would have guessed in a million years that Bonner would force her way out of Phoenix to go to Connecticut.


I’m sure you already know this. Just wanted to clarify for those who don’t know. Technically she didn’t “force” her way out. She could have just walked away free as a bird that flaps its wings and squawks at a referee. I guess she was greedy for a Delle Donne level contract and PHX was greedy to get something back for her even though they were no longer entitled, so the mutual-greed worked out for both of them. I think they should close that loophole.

I get what you’re trying to say though. Usually players are wanting to leave Connecticut. I guess Bonner lost confidence in PHX front office to put together another championship team considering their moves at the time and Taurasi’s downswing. Connecticut looked to be one key piece away from a championship. Probably didn’t figure on affecting the budget so adversely that they’d end up losing other key pieces.

root_thing wrote:
Another surprise was Sykes and Gullich being traded for Kalani Brown. That deal wasn’t on my radar in any form.


ATL had the right idea balancing the roster out, it’s just that they messed up thinking Brown was a prominent player after what they saw of her last year. If they can get her fit, maybe. Good luck with that though.

root_thing wrote:
I think the new salary structure is going to force a lot of movement. With so many players floating around as free agents, and more big names due the following year, odds are we’re going to get a number of surprises.


The salary cap increase being so small is going to create a greater divide between the have and have-not players. Middle salary players may disappear. Also more teams going with a 11 player rosters. Is this what the league really wanted?



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/23/20 1:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:

root_thing wrote:
Another surprise was Sykes and Gullich being traded for Kalani Brown. That deal wasn’t on my radar in any form.


ATL had the right idea balancing the roster out, it’s just that they messed up thinking Brown was a prominent player after what they saw of her last year. If they can get her fit, maybe. Good luck with that though.


It was a matter of need and team fit. In 2019, Atlanta was first in blocks and fourth in rebounding which are two important categories for assessing post play. Meanwhile, they were last in 3pt shooting. Yes, the Dream probably needed more offense in the post, but I thought perimeter shooting was a higher priority -- especially if you have limited assets to trade. But maybe management foresaw that Carter would declare early and that she'd be enough of a perimeter scoring upgrade. As for LA, I thought having a big bruiser like Brown was a good complement to the smaller skilled posts like Parker and the Ogwumikes. From what I saw, Kalani filled her role pretty well.



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PostPosted: 09/23/20 1:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Randy wrote:
I think probably Howard is likely to be the most "available" UFA prize out there and seems to me she will go to the highest bidder. NY should have the cap space and living in NY does have its appeal. I suspect most every team will be trying to get her, if the Storm don't core her.

No way. She’ll be Seattle’s top priority. Next priority, Clark. Next, Bird. Then probably Whitcomb.

Last I heard, the Storm try to make deals with their free agents in order from most years with the team to the least (in terms of those they actually want to re-sign). Which would mean it'd be Bird first (hers should be a quick & easy supermax), then Clark ($$), then Howard (this one could get interesting), then Whitcomb (watch out for Phoenix & the Brondello connection). We might even bring Prince back if we have enough leftover money at the end, but I highly doubt it. Though this discussion can be saved for the eventual Storm 2021 thread.

Shades wrote:
The salary cap increase being so small is going to create a greater divide between the have and have-not players. Middle salary players may disappear. Also more teams going with a 11 player rosters. Is this what the league really wanted?

Methinks it was always about what the players/players' union wanted. They demanded around the same % of revenue that the NBA has (which is an even 50%). It was really good PR for the League to acquiesce, and would've been really bad had they not. Ultimately it's up to the teams to manage their own cap situations appropriately in this new era, and maybe wisely save those high-end contracts for one or two players at most.



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PostPosted: 09/24/20 6:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
Shades wrote:
Randy wrote:
I think probably Howard is likely to be the most "available" UFA prize out there and seems to me she will go to the highest bidder. NY should have the cap space and living in NY does have its appeal. I suspect most every team will be trying to get her, if the Storm don't core her.

No way. She’ll be Seattle’s top priority. Next priority, Clark. Next, Bird. Then probably Whitcomb.

Last I heard, the Storm try to make deals with their free agents in order from most years with the team to the least (in terms of those they actually want to re-sign). Which would mean it'd be Bird first (hers should be a quick & easy supermax), then Clark ($$), then Howard (this one could get interesting), then Whitcomb (watch out for Phoenix & the Brondello connection). We might even bring Prince back if we have enough leftover money at the end, but I highly doubt it. Though this discussion can be saved for the eventual Storm 2021 thread.

Shades wrote:
The salary cap increase being so small is going to create a greater divide between the have and have-not players. Middle salary players may disappear. Also more teams going with a 11 player rosters. Is this what the league really wanted?

Methinks it was always about what the players/players' union wanted. They demanded around the same % of revenue that the NBA has (which is an even 50%). It was really good PR for the League to acquiesce, and would've been really bad had they not. Ultimately it's up to the teams to manage their own cap situations appropriately in this new era, and maybe wisely save those high-end contracts for one or two players at most.


I highly doubt that we are going to re-sign Bird first because Bird wants to decide on her health every year if she is going to continue to play or maybe retire. I think she will give them an estimate of money that she wants if she is going to play but i wouldnt be suprised if she doesnt take the MAX in order to re-sign Clark, Howard and Sami.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/24/20 3:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Regarding some of the observations and suggestions made yesterday:

I agree with J-Spoon that at this point New York has little to trade. (Despite a potentially crowded roster!). Lots of players with potential but serious question marks.

I don't believe there's any way that Tina Charles will be coming back to New York. Whether or not Charles genuinely wanted out, I don't believe that Kolb and Hopkins wanted her back for 2020 and will want her back for 2021.

Bill Laimbeer perhaps trading for Kiah Stokes? I believe I've heard that song before. Smile

I agree with root_thing that there could be some major surprises ahead in the offseason. Given the way 2020 went, I can imagine Kolb and Hopkins trying to find some way to bring a big-name player to New York. That doesn't mean they can do it, but I suspect they will be trying. I know others here disagree, but my view is that neither Kolb nor Hopkins is guaranteed to be here in 2022.

Sadly, I believe root_thing is correct that Covid-19 will be with us in an important way for at least another year. This surely could hamper recruiting someone who might perhaps come as a UFA or in a forced trade.

Considering 2020 was sure to be a rebuilding year for the Liberty no matter what, so many things went wrong--almost none under the team's control--that hurt effective rebuilding and learning from that rebuilding. It's really unfortunate. Kolb and Hopkins are so far from where they might have been in terms of how best to move forward.



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PostPosted: 09/27/20 12:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I was curious which LIberty players are playing overseas this winter. I thought COVID might be a major impediment, but it doesn't look that way because a lot of people got gigs:

Clarendon.....???
Durr.............convalescence?
Han.............Xinjiang/China
Holmes.........Raanana/Israel
Ionescu........rehab?
Johannes......Lyon/France
Jones...........Tarbes/France
Kea..............Maccabi Haifa/Israel
Nurse...........TSN commentator
Odom...........???
Allen ...........Valencia/Spain
Raincock.......Lyon/France
Shook..........Kayseri/Turkey
Stokes.........Fenerbahce/Turkey
Talbot..........???
Walker.........Sopron/Hungary
Willoughby...team?/Israel
Zahui B.......???



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PostPosted: 09/27/20 1:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Layshia Clarendon and their wife are having a baby in December. I doubt that Clarendon will be heading overseas, especially after spending the last few months in the wubble (away from their wife, to my knowledge).



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PostPosted: 09/27/20 5:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Laysia has not typically played overseas. She did it once and didn't like it.



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PostPosted: 09/27/20 10:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stokes would work in Minneapolis. Good rebounder, defender, teammate, shares the ball and is coachable. She doesn't need to carry the scoring burden.
A good second teamer and fill in on first team.



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PostPosted: 09/27/20 11:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
Stokes would work in Minneapolis. Good rebounder, defender, teammate, shares the ball and is coachable. She doesn't need to carry the scoring burden. A good second teamer and fill in on first team.


For me, this is who Kiah Stokes is. She can contribute in that role to the Liberty or many other teams. That's why I like re-signing her. She could be useful in a trade--or she could be useful off the bench for the Liberty. But if Kiah Stokes is a starter for the Liberty in 2021, that would be seriously problematic.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/27/20 12:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
RavenDog wrote:
Stokes would work in Minneapolis. Good rebounder, defender, teammate, shares the ball and is coachable. She doesn't need to carry the scoring burden. A good second teamer and fill in on first team.


For me, this is who Kiah Stokes is. She can contribute in that role to the Liberty or many other teams. That's why I like re-signing her. She could be useful in a trade--or she could be useful off the bench for the Liberty. But if Kiah Stokes is a starter for the Liberty in 2021, that would be seriously problematic.


Kiah is from the Midwest and she did go to Minneapolis with Hartley for the BLM demonstrations. She probably wouldn't object to being closer to her family.



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PostPosted: 09/27/20 7:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Kiah is from the Midwest and she did go to Minneapolis with Hartley for the BLM demonstrations. She probably wouldn't object to being closer to her family.


How great that they went to Minnesota for the Black Lives Matter protests!



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PostPosted: 09/28/20 6:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My understanding is Sabrina doesn't want to play overseas, but I think the right amount of money could change her mind, given the way this season has played out.

But of course the Euro leagues may not have much money to spend.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 09/28/20 6:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RavenDog wrote:
Stokes would work in Minneapolis. Good rebounder, defender, teammate, shares the ball and is coachable. She doesn't need to carry the scoring burden.
A good second teamer and fill in on first team.


I agree with you and Bob, a solid player off the bench and fill in starter- who shouldn’t be asked to carry the scoring burden.

Bob Lamm wrote:
Layshia Clarendon and their wife are having a baby in December. I doubt that Clarendon will be heading overseas, especially after spending the last few months in the wubble (away from their wife, to my knowledge).


I’m so happy for them and their wife Very Happy
But I agree, probably won’t go overseas.
—————————————————————

I’m excited to see these potential aggressive moves in free agency and trades this offseason.
I hope we add a couple solid pieces, and aim for a star for 2022 and hopefully a return to Brooklyn by then.

As others have said, Cheyenne Parker is an option.
I would offer a big contract (3 years, $185,000) to Cheyenne and re-sign Bec.
Ionescu/Clarendon
Durr/Jones
Nurse/Walker/Willoughby
Allen/Odom
Parker/Stokes/Shook
*Johannes comes post Olympics (Walker, Willoughby, Odom cut?), Han doesn’t show, draft and hope to stash Kuier
See if the undersized 4, who is really a 3, gameplay can work with the right 3pt shooters.

Why give Cheyenne a max contract? She has solid stats in the minutes she plays, her per 40 is stellar. She fits the system, can hit the outside shot but can also bang inside.
It also doesn’t impact our ability to re-sign our players in the future (even if we sign another max free agent in 2022).
I would also make the same offer for Natasha Howard. I guess we could actually do both.
But I prefer one, and try to land bigger in 2022.

Parker might not get the same offer from the Sky (I don’t know their financial situation). And in NY she’s the clear #1 post for 2021. With the Sky, there’s Dolson and Stevens to contend with for minutes. And she’s from NY I believe.


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PostPosted: 09/29/20 2:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
As others have said, Cheyenne Parker is an option.
I would offer a big contract (3 years, $185,000)


Her listed hometown is in fact Queens. Very Happy A little risky of a contract, but she was basically the Sky's only veteran post player who could stay healthy last season - and the ability to stay healthy should count for more than players are given credit for.

Liberty I'd say have the most flexible situation right now out of any other team. They have lots of cap space, and they have the rights to nearly a full roster & a half of actual players (excluding only Zahui B.). None of their assets will be rookies next year other than the lottery pick, but many will still be young & cheap (for a little while, at that) & not brand new to the League. If a team has to trade away a star player that wants the same-team supermax on a different team (à la DeWanna Bonner), assuming the player is open to coming to New York – which is still the key, of course – New York is the team to call up that'll at least give them a legitimate package in return. Maybe I've got rose-colored glasses on, but I don't care. Razz Hop said he was gonna get aggressive in trades & free agency, so I'm choosing to believe he'll make good on those words & produce something good – maybe even better than we expect (whatever "expectations" are anymore cuz it's 2020 lmao).



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 3:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here’s how the Liberty twitter is promoting to 2021 Liberty season ticket holders. I think it’s pretty reasonable to expect Zahui on the team next year.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 9:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
As others have said, Cheyenne Parker is an option.
I would offer a big contract (3 years, $185,000)


Her listed hometown is in fact Queens. Very Happy A little risky of a contract, but she was basically the Sky's only veteran post player who could stay healthy last season - and the ability to stay healthy should count for more than players are given credit for.

Liberty I'd say have the most flexible situation right now out of any other team. They have lots of cap space, and they have the rights to nearly a full roster & a half of actual players (excluding only Zahui B.). None of their assets will be rookies next year other than the lottery pick, but many will still be young & cheap (for a little while, at that) & not brand new to the League.


The Liberty would know this season about the need to stay healthy, especially our stars 😭

I am excited for our flexibility. It is a risky contract but if we can land a bigger star the next offseason, through FA or trade, which we would still have the flexibility to do, I would be okay with it. As long as she posts the same numbers or higher as this season.

Shades wrote:
Here’s how the Liberty twitter is promoting to 2021 Liberty season ticket holders. I think it’s pretty reasonable to expect Zahui on the team next year.


New York has promoted players in the past and then they were on another roster the upcoming season.
I would love to have her back- but wouldn’t be surprised if she stays or goes.
As a 5th option starting she’s great, as long as our 4 can post up a little bit.


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PostPosted: 09/29/20 12:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I wouldn’t be so sure that Nurse is back either. Some coach or GM out there may be a Nurse fan and see this as an opportunity to steal her away at a cheap price. Meanwhile, the Liberty have a roster full of wing players. If the 2020 Kia shows up again next year, they’re better off using somebody else. Consequently, it may make sense to trade her now while Nurse still has some value. It’s a really strange situation. When was the last time you saw an athlete tumble from All-Star to possibly the worst starter in history within one year? How do you establish value for such a player? I guess it depends on whether or not you think Kia will bounce back. Aside from offense, Nurse does bring other positive traits. She is considered a good defender and is an overall smart, tough player, who always goes hard. Off the court, she is popular and keeps the team loose with her sense of humor – something the Canadian national team coach Lisa Thomaidis always mentions. So, Nurse brings more than just offense.

As far as Zahui goes, I’ve been looking at her statistics, both traditional and advanced, and it’s pretty clear she had a good defensive year, but a bad one on offense. I didn’t realize just how big the disparity was until I saw the percentile ranks (thanks Richyyy and Her Hoops Stats). On the defensive side, Zahui is impressively in the 96th percentile in rebounds and 91st in blocks. But for offense, you have an unsightly 14th for points per play and 15th in field goal percentage. The mistakes metrics are ugly too: 8th percentile for turnovers and 20th for fouls. Those impressive rebounding and blocks stats combined with an occasional good offensive outing make Amanda seem like a decent player. However, she’s bad offensively in most games and her mistakes at crucial moments can kill you. Given the Liberty's woes on offense, I think we need to get away from that Zahui-Stokes combination. I would let Zahui walk. Either that or trade Stokes before re-signing Zahui.



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 12:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Given the Liberty's woes on offense, I think we need to get away from that Zahui-Stokes combination. I would let Zahui walk. Either that or trade Stokes before re-signing Zahui.


+1. I would've preferred keeping Zahui B. over Stokes (which could still happen, I guess), but having both return would risk them starting in the post again barring a legitimate free agent signing. Unless they have a foolproof plan to trade Stokes, I don't want them going after Zahui B. now either.

As for Nurse, it was 100% clear – to me, anyway – that she will never be good enough to be a second-or-better option. She was really the only proven shooter once Ionescu went out, in which Hopkins clearly leaned on her a lot by refusing to stop giving her the green light. And she had to create for herself towards the end of the shot clock so much this past season, which is a skill – at least for now – she just doesn't have. The good news is, the perimeter cavalry (Ionescu and Durr, I'd imagine amongst at least one or two international role players) should be back in action next season – so moving forward, she really should never have to be more than a third option who takes shots within the flow of the offense. I would bet on Nurse having a season much closer to 2018 or 2019 than to 2020, so unless there'll be a star player-to-New York trade in the works this winter, they ought to keep Nurse and see if she can find her way playing alongside the real stars imo.



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Last edited by Stormeo on 09/29/20 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: 09/29/20 2:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There are those who do not include rebounding as a defensive metric (I'm one of them -- it's a different skill) and blocked shots don't really say much. I'm far from convinced Zahui B is a good defender, or even an average one.



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 3:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
There are those who do not include rebounding as a defensive metric (I'm one of them -- it's a different skill) and blocked shots don't really say much. I'm far from convinced Zahui B is a good defender, or even an average one.


As I've repeated ad nauseam, you have to BOTH watch games AND look at the stats. I agree that rebounding is not automatically a good indicator of defense. However, having watched every Liberty game, it's my opinion that Zahui's defensive rebounding was important to the team because their scrambling, switching defense often left players in bad rebounding position. This is an area where Amanda was a rock. In fact, other than Reshanda Gray who only played 6 mpg, Zahui led the league in defensive rebounding percentage. As far as block shots go, yes we've discussed that too -- especially over the years with Candace Parker. My view is that Zahui is a decent on-ball defender, but not necessarily a great help defender. I know a lot of people don't believe in personal defensive ratings, but for what it's worth Zahui's is five points better than the team's.



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 4:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The weird thing is that, despite all the youth and the weird lineups and the losses, statistically the Liberty defense wasn't far off being 'average' this season (the major issue was one of the worst offenses in league history). Which is actually kinda interesting. Personally I wouldn't want to try to go forward with a Stokes/Zahui B front line either - unless they were the bench - but I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to keep both. They may think a year of development and the return of Ionescu, Durr, Johannes et al can be the main element in 'fixing' the offense, and that the defense isn't that far off already.



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 4:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Here’s how the Liberty twitter is promoting to 2021 Liberty season ticket holders. I think it’s pretty reasonable to expect Zahui on the team next year.


Notice which one isn't happy.......



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 4:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I am OK with bringing Zahui B back or not

If NY is not willing to core Zahui B (which I don't think they will be) I could see some other teams making a bid for her. NY has the cap space to make a decent offer if they choose, Zahui might like her NY teammates and be happy staying and having a big role, but other teams might offer her a greater chance at winning and a smaller role. We never know what motivates a player. I could see Minny giving her a solid offer, on what is known as a great franchise and is a team in the hunt for a ship instead of in the deep bowels of a rebuild.

If Howard leaves Seattle I could see the Storm bring her in for a bench role while moving Magbegor or Russell to starter.

I am not sure what Laimbeer thinks of her but if Cambage decides to not play again next year because of the Olympics (or other reasons) Zahui B off the bench for LV seems like a possibility if they move Wilson to Center and put Hammy in the starting line up. Zahui has that mid range long range game that make her a decent post compliment to Wilson.

I would support keeping Zahui B if we brought in a top level post free agent and decided to try and win in 2021 (Howard, Ch. Parker, Ogwumike). If a fee agent and our top draft pick move Zahui B to 3rd and 4th on the depth chart keeping them both makes sense.

If we are still heavy in the rebuild in 2021 than I would let Zahui B walk and let Ionescu,the return of Durr, our new lottery pick post and remaining sophomores (Jones, Odom, Walker, Willoughby, Shook, Holmes) be the focus of the team then you probably don't need Zahui, or Allen, or Talbot, or even Nurse, Clarendon or Stokes, but Stokes, Nurse and Clarendon are under contract and you probably still need some veteran leadership.

For me keeping Zahui B is about direction and goals of 2021

go all in to win, screw some of the youth movement
use cap to sign Howard, Ch. Parker and re-sign Zahui b
get Johannes to commit to half the season

Ionescu/Clarendon
Durr/Johannes/Jones
Nurse/Odom, Walker, or Willoughby
Howard/Zahui B/lottery pick
Ch. Parker/Stokes

those moves aren't too unrealistic and that is suddenly a competitive NY team

or continue to develop wait until 2022 for big free agent moves

Ionescu/Clarendon
Durr/Jones
Nurse/Odom
lottery pick/Willoughby/Walker
Stokes/Shook

room for one free agent or Johannes
free agent options
could bring back Allen
make a bigger move like Ch. Parker
if you are looking at 22/23
maybe a youngish UFA like Laney or Powers could work
Hawkins could be a fit
but the goal would be someone who could grow with the young core over the next few seasons


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PostPosted: 09/29/20 5:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fair point that they could consider coring Zahui B. It'd be an overpay, but they've got a ludicrous amount of cap space and no other imminent free agents that they're going to need the spot for. I'd rather save the money for whatever small chance they have to attract better free agents, but they might not after having her as part of the franchise.



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